The Olivet Discourse

sovereigngrace said:

Because "the lasts days" has been ongoing since the First Advent and will continue until the Second Advent - "the last day" (singular) of "the "last days (plural).

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This is nonsensical.

claninja said:

This is nonsensical.

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In your opinion, because it exposes your fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70 and applies it to Christ and His climactic return. Many of us see Scripture's focus on Christ, not Titus.

sovereigngrace said:

In your opinion, because it strips away your fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70 and applies it to Christ and His climactic return. Many of us see Scripture's focus on Christ, not Titus.

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Interesting. You've personally assigned the label of "coming of Titus" to the events of 70 AD when Scripture (and the recorded words of Jesus) use the label "coming of the Son of Man" that refers to the prophecy of Daniel, yet you're accusing others of focusing on Titus (when their focus IS on Christ). This quote even acknowledges that (except I think you're misunderstanding about any application of a "climactic return" to 70 AD).

mkgal1 said:

Interesting. You've personally assigned the label of "coming of Titus" to the events of 70 AD when Scripture (and the recorded words of Jesus) use the label "coming of the Son of Man" that points to the prophecy of Daniel, yet you're accusing others of focusing on Titus (when their focus IS on Christ). This quote even acknowledges that.

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The coming of the Son of Man is a future event that sees the rescue of the saints, the destruction of the wicked, the destruction of this current sin-cursed world, the general resurrection and general judgment. It definitely did not occur in AD70. That is heresy. Your obsession with that date is unbiblical, wrong and unhealthy.

sovereigngrace said:

The coming of the Son of Man is a future event that sees the rescue of the saints, the destruction of the wicked, the destruction of this current sin-cursed world, the general resurrection and general judgment. It definitely did not occur by AD70. That is heresy. Your obsession with that date is unbiblical, wrong and unhealthy.

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That is what you believe it to be.....but I disagree....so when I state the Son of Man has already been revealed from heaven by 70 AD I'm not signing your version of that.

I see nothing "wrong and unhealthy " about believing that Jesus fulfilled His promises in perfect timing. He is faithful, He is sovereign, He is omnipotent.

As you said (ironically), "Scripture's focused on Christ, not Titus". I agree.

mkgal1 said:

That is what you believe it to be.....but I disagree....so when I state the Son of Man has been revealed from heaven in 70 AD I'm not signing your version of that.

I see nothing "wrong and unhealthy " about believing that Jesus fulfilled His promises in perfect timing. He is faithful, He is sovereign, He is omnipotent.

As you said (ironically), "Scripture's focus on Christ, not Titus". I agree.

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Did every eye see Him in AD70? No!

In fact, furnish us with any witness accounts of His appearing in AD70? There are none!

Acts 1:9-11 records: “while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

Was Jesus taken up literally into heaven in the presence of the disciples?
Was He taken up physically into heaven in the presence of the disciples?
Was He taken up bodily into heaven in the presence of the disciples?
Was He taken up visibly into heaven in the presence of the disciples?

The 11 disciples were direct material witnesses to the ascension of Jesus Christ up from the earth toward heaven. This passage tells us it is the actual “manner” or tropos (meaning style or mode) of His glorious ascent into heaven is the way He will return.

How did He go?

Literally, physically, visibly.

•Physically: “This same Jesus.”
•Visibly: “while they beheld,” “they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up” and “as ye have seen Him go.”
•Literally: “In like manner.”

Contrary to Pretrib and Preterist beliefs, the second coming of Christ is not a secret event. Such a mistaken view emanates from a wrong understanding of Scripture. Revelation 1:7 declares: “Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him” (Revelation 1:7).

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!

Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him? Of course not! That is absurd! Equally, did the Gentiles also wail because of him? Of course not! That is absurd!

Here we see the most public event of all time - the literal, visible, physical return of the Lord Jesus Christ. This passage unmistakably shows that the glorious Second Advent will be the most amazing public event ever. To such an extent that “every eye shall see him.”

The Scriptures talks much about the unexpected nature of the second coming of Christ but nothing of a secret coming. This is clearly an arrival that will shake the world.

Jesus explains in Matthew 24:27: “For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”

Christ's coming shall be sudden as lightning. What is more sudden and spectacular than lightning? Lightning is not hid! It can be seen by all across the sky. This is no secret snatch in this text. This secret is only in regards the time of His coming, not the reality of it.

Jesus tells us in Matthew 26:64: “Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

This is repeated in Mark 14:62: “ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus said in Luke 21:26–27: “for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.”

The scriptural references to Christ coming as a “thief in the night” simply refers to the unexpectedness or suddenness of that event and not to its secretiveness.

The only thing secret about the rapture is its date – it is classified. Jesus said in Mark 13:32-33, “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.”

1. Did Jesus Christ come literally with the coming of Titus in AD70?
2. Did Jesus Christ come physically with the coming of Titus in AD70?
3. Did Jesus Christ come visibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
4. Did Jesus Christ come audibly with the coming of Titus in AD70?
5. Did Jesus Christ come bodily with the coming of Titus in AD70?

sovereigngrace said:

In your opinion, because it exposes your fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70 and applies it to Christ and His climactic return. Many of us see Scripture's focus on Christ, not Titus.

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Yes, it is my opinion that it is illogical to conclude that the last days have been going on for 2,000 years as that would be an oxymoron, regardless of what one believes about the events of 70ad.

claninja said:

Yes, it is my opinion that it is illogical to conclude that the last days have been going on for 2,000 years as that would be an oxymoron, regardless of what one believes about the events of 70ad.

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How?

claninja said:

Yes, it is my opinion that it is illogical to conclude that the last days have been going on for 2,000 years as that would be an oxymoron, regardless of what one believes about the events of 70ad.

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In Full Preterism, yes.

claninja said:

This is nonsensical.

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Hi claninja,

Consider that when the apostles comments as them living "in these last days" they were seeing the events leading up to the temple destroyed, and the Jews lead away as captives. It is not meaning latter days and latter years (like in Ezekiel 38), end times. They were seeing the last days of Israel in the land, for what Israel would soon be in exile for a long, long time.

I just made a chart on the Olivet discourse. Please take note of the status of Israel in those three main divisions, breaking up the last 2000 years to where Israel has been.

sovereigngrace said:

Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70?

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The prophecies of the Son of Man aren't about Jesus coming "back".....they're about Jesus having authority, sovereignty, glory, kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom.

mkgal1 said:

The prophecies of the Son of Man aren't about Jesus coming "back".....they're about Jesus having authority, sovereignty, glory, kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom.

Daniel 7:14 ~ And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.​

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That is not true. Jesus has authority, sovereignty, glory, kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom right now, but that does not prove He is coming back today.

What you write above is not what the Bible says, that is what Full Preterism teaches. I refer you back to the avoided Scripture.

sovereigngrace said:

That is not true. Jesus has authority, sovereignty, glory, kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom right now, but that does not prove He is coming back today.

What you write above is not what the Bible says, that is what Full Preterism teaches. I refer you back to the avoided Scripture.

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I disagree with you.

Revelation is very much misunderstood and misinterpreted. You look at it with modern eyes.

claninja said:

This is nonsensical.

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And Pre-trib's theory that the Holy Spirit is what is withholding isn't nonsensical? Right...

mkgal1 said:

The prophecies of the Son of Man aren't about Jesus coming "back".....they're about Jesus having authority, sovereignty, glory, kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom.

Daniel 7:14 ~ And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.​

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Lost4words said:

I disagree with you.

Revelation is very much misunderstood and misinterpreted. You look at it with modern eyes.

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Not so! You are just voicing personal opinion (which means nothing); you are not addressing the subject at hand. Preterists see AD70 everywhere in Scripture. That is all they think about. Revelation is about Christ operating in the intra-Advent and beyond.

sovereigngrace said:

Not so! You are just voicing personal opinion (which means nothing); you are not addressing the subject at hand. Preterists see AD70 everywhere in Scripture. That is all they think about. Revelation is about Christ operating in the intra-Advent and beyond.

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Yours is a personal opinion.

Look up partial preterist research. Its all biblical. It all fits together perfectly.

sovereigngrace said:

Jesus has authority, sovereignty, glory, kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom right now, but that does not prove He is coming back today.

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I'm not saying anything about "Him coming back today". However, I'm glad we agree that He already has sovereignty, glory, Kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom right now.

Lost4words said:

Yours is a personal opinion.

Look up partial preterist research. Its all biblical. It all fits together perfectly.

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Again, you are totally avoiding the Scripture presented that forbids Full Preterism.

sovereigngrace said:

What you write above is not what the Bible says, that is what Full Preterism teaches. I refer you back to the avoided Scripture.

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I'm quoting directly from the Bible? What Scripture have I avoided? I posted:

mkgal1 said:

I'm not saying anything about "Him coming back today". However, I'm glad we agree that He already has sovereignty, glory, Kingship, and an everlasting Kingdom right now.

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The statement you made to prove AD70 was the coming of the Lord, applies to every day since the ascension. So, you have provided no evidence for Jesus coming in AD70, quite the contrary. You seem to be winging it!

Admit that no eye seen Him in AD70, because He is coming in glory in the future! That is a Full Preterist heresy!