Was that the only change? What else changed? Is there anything else that makes it a "New Covenant" other than the High Priesthood being transferred and the laws concerning Him?
I agree.
Do you keep the Passover?
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Is the Sabbath an eternal moral law for humanity?
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Was that the only change? What else changed? Is there anything else that makes it a "New Covenant" other than the High Priesthood being transferred and the laws concerning Him?
I agree.
Do you keep the Passover?
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Nonsense.
Commentary. I'll take Yahshua at his word. It's ironic that some of your sources didn't believe in Yahshua; even though some of them, like Yahshua, kept the Torah unto death.
I'm very careful not to place the words of unbelievers over the words of Yahshua.
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I try to avoid making absolute statements. Do you have anything else?
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"Under the law"
Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.
It's found 11 times in his writings.
Romans 3:19
(CLV) Ro 3:19
Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,
Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.
The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.
As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.
The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:
(CLV) Ro 3:18
There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.
Why would we fear our loving Abba?
(CLV) Ex 20:20
Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.
What is sin?
(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.
==================================================
(CLV) Ro 6:14
For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.
Which law?
Paul mentions at least 8 of them in this letter:
The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
A Different Law (Ch 7)
The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
God's Law (Ch 7)
The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)
I suppose that if sin is lording over you; then you are under The Law of Sin.
(CLV) Ro 6:15
What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!
Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms that we may not sin.
What is sin?
(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.
(CLV) Ro 7:7
What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."
Surely The Law of Sin doesn't prohibit coveting.
The Law of YHWH does.
==================================================
(CLV) 1Co 9:20
And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;
The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.
I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?
It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.
It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.
Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT
Definition of halacha
: the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
Definition of HALACHA
Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.
(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.
"Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.
(CLV) 1Co 9:22
I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.
Apart from the Judaeans the nations didn't even have the Torah
That said, just a few verses prior in this letter; Paul makes mention of the Torah:
Some misunderstand this passage.Paul was not a lawless crowd pleaser.
(CLV) Ga 1:10
For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ.
Acts 17:22-31 is an example of how Paul would put this behavior into practice.
(CLV) 1Co 9:
9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox.Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? Because of us, for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."
HE'S SAYING THAT THE TORAH WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE OF US?
(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
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(CLV) Ga 3:19
What, then, is the law? On behalf of transgressions was it added, until the Seed should come to Whom He has promised, being prescribed through messengers in the hand of a mediator.
What law was added to what? Transgressions of what? Abraham had the law. The penal code for the land of Israel was added. Levitical priesthood was added. After the Seed (Yahshua) came; the Judaeans were exiled from the land, for rejecting YHWH's word in the flesh. The High Priesthood was transferred to Yahshua; as it is written.
(CLV) Ga 3:20
Now there is no Mediator of one. Yet God is One.
(CLV) Ga 3:21
Is the law, then, against the promises of God? May it not be coming to that! For if a law were given that is |able to vivify, really, righteousness were out of law.
YHWH's law is not against grace.
(CLV) Ga 3:22
But the scripture locks up all together under sin,
...because all have sinned.
The Law of Sin
that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing.
(CLV) Gn 15:6
Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness
(CLV) Gn 26:5
inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.
(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.
(CLV) Ja 2:23
And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
(CLV) Ja 2:24
You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.
Obedience to YHWH's Law is the fruit of faith.
(CLV) Ga 3:23
Now before the coming of faith we were garrisoned under law, being locked together for the faith about to be revealed.
If we actually believe Yahshua; we will follow his example of obedience.
(CLV) Ja 2:14
What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.
(CLV) Ja 2:22
You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected
==================================================
(CLV) Ga 4:4
Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,
(CLV) Ga 4:5
that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.
Reclaiming them from what?
Paul makes it clear that those who are under the law, are those who have broken the law:
(CLV) Ro 1:5
through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,
(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================
(CLV) Ga 4:21
Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?
Paul is asking why you would want to sin, knowing what YHWH's judgements will be.
(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
==================================================
(CLV) Ga 5:18
Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.
How can you break YHWH's laws being led by the spirit?
Let's look at this verse in a little more context.
(CLV) Ga 5:16
Now I am saying, Walk in spirit, and you should under no circumstances be consummating the lust of the flesh.
What is the lust of the flesh?
Here are some examples:
(CLV) Ga 5:19
Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,
(CLV) Ga 5:20
idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,
(CLV) Ga 5:21
envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.
Yahshua set an example of how for us to behave in a way that is in the Father's will.
(CLV) Ro 8:29
that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.
(CLV) Jn 16:7
"But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, the consoler will not be coming to you. Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you.
(CLV) Jn 16:8
And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning
righteousness and concerning judging:
(CLV) Jn 16:9
concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;
(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
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I posted this
your response
Ok - we have had several people that accept all TEN of the TEN commandments and are in the boat you apparently call "Sabbath keepers" even though they view Sunday as the Lord's Day and the current form of the Sabbath Commandment still in the TEN
So then that's
The Baptist Confession of Faith
C.H. Spurgeon
The Westminster Confession of Faith
D.L. Moody
R.C.Sproul
and a great many others that you believe to be incorrect on this point.
Everyone says we live in the present -... it is unclear that you addressed the issue regarding the NEW Covenant Law in Jer 31:31-34 or in Heb 8:6-12 -- written on the heart by simply stating that we all live in the present.
2 Tim 3:16 Paul says "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"
Is it your belief that Paul was in error?
Was Christ in Error in Mark 7:6-13 with his sola-scriptura argument about "Moses said"?? in your view.
Jesus used symbols and parables and there are a number of places in scripture where a symbol is used - do we then toss out that "book of the Bible" (so then also the teachings of Jesus ) just because a parable cannot be taken literally?
your response
Ok - we have had several people that accept all TEN of the TEN commandments and are in the boat you apparently call "Sabbath keepers" even though they view Sunday as the Lord's Day and the current form of the Sabbath Commandment still in the TEN
So then that's
The Baptist Confession of Faith
C.H. Spurgeon
The Westminster Confession of Faith
D.L. Moody
R.C.Sproul
and a great many others that you believe to be incorrect on this point.
Everyone says we live in the present -... it is unclear that you addressed the issue regarding the NEW Covenant Law in Jer 31:31-34 or in Heb 8:6-12 -- written on the heart by simply stating that we all live in the present.
2 Tim 3:16 Paul says "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"
Is it your belief that Paul was in error?
Was Christ in Error in Mark 7:6-13 with his sola-scriptura argument about "Moses said"?? in your view.
Jesus used symbols and parables and there are a number of places in scripture where a symbol is used - do we then toss out that "book of the Bible" (so then also the teachings of Jesus ) just because a parable cannot be taken literally?
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Ignore it? Please. A debate involves making a case then justifying it, or finding problems in the opposing case. What you have done here is ignore my previous post where I addressed Mark 2:27 again. I have probably written about 10 posts on Mark 2:27 over the course of the two threads. First I showed the vagueness in the Greek and how translation is not as simple as it might appear in the English, that anthropos is literally talking of Israel in Mark 7:7 and that same word is used in Mark 2:27 while Jesus is talking to Israelites! Jews! Your only response to this is to appeal to the English "man" but you have not shown why this translation to man must mean all of mankind.
Then second I say, even if Jesus did mean mankind, which He may have, and I don't rule this out entirely, what was He intending to say to those Jews? He was confronting them about their obsession with Sabbath laws. He says, "the Sabbath was made for you as a rest day to worship God so why are you making it stressful?"
The third point, which follows the second that you maybe forgot to reply to is this: if you believe the Sabbath is eternal and moral then you believe it will be involved in judging people yes? But Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man. So how can man be judged by what was made for him?
Then last, there is one last option. God made the Sabbath at creation then gave it to man through Moses.
So please refrain from your verbal attacks saying I lie, I assume, I twist, I ignore etc. If you continue I will have to report these insults as they are not a nice way to interact. I have spent a lot of time on these things and my convictions have cost me much in my everyday life. I do not study these things lightly. But I am still open to being challenged in a respectful way.
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(CLV) 1Ti 1:8
Now we are aware that the law is ideal if ever anyone is using it lawfully,
(CLV) 1Ti 1:9
being aware of this, that law is not laid down for the just, yet it is for the lawless and insubordinate, the irreverent and sinners, the malign and profane, thrashers of fathers and thrashers of mothers, homicides,
(CLV) 1Ti 1:10
paramours, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and if any other thing is opposing sound teaching,
(CLV) 1Ti 1:11
in accord with the evangel of the glory of the happy God, with which I was entrusted.
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Well let's look at it in context. What man do you suppose Yahshua is the son of (singular), Mary or Joseph?
(CLV) Mk 2:27
And He said to them, "The sabbath came because of mankind, and not mankind because of the sabbath,
(CLV) Mk 2:28
so that the Son of Mankind is Lord, also, of the sabbath."
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Your logic has you deleting all the teaching of Jesus for Christians because after all Jesus was "talking to Jews" in the gospels.
That pretty much wipes out Matt 5 and 6 the sermon on the mount as well as John 14,15,16,17 - Christ's teaching the disciples in the upper room at the last supper.
If Jews were given "another Gospel" by Christ (condemned by Paul in Gal 1:6-9) and were told as in Matt 28:19 to teach others what Christ had taught them... then logically using your rule above we would reject not only the teaching of Christ found in the Gospels (teaching that his Jewish followers are telling us about after He ascended to heaven - BTW) - but also everything else they claim in the NT to be the doctrine of Christ, the teaching of Christ -- after all ... they are Jews.
Most Christians on both sides of the Sabbath debate would not go to that extreme
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Right. I do believe they are incorrect.
God writes His law on our heart personally instead of externally in the Mosaic Law. The law He writes is not stagnant or a one-off event, He writes on our heart daily as we walk with Him. A Living Law if you will. Walking in the Spirit.
It's easy to misunderstand how I think about sola-sciptura. Sometimes I think it may be easier to just say I agree with it because what I believe is so similar. But the problem with sola-scriptura is how the bible gets elevated to a height it was never intended to take. Jesus is above the bible, you would agree. God is above the bible, you would agree. The Bible is not our God, again, I'm sure you would agree. So if the bible is not my God, why should I say it has the highest place in determining truth? Shouldn't God have that place in my heart? Sola-scriptura has the potential to turn the bible into an idol. And it is, to many christians. It's incredibly ironic.
With that said, I am more than happy to use the bible to adjust how I think about life and God. But I do so in the Spirit. If something I read doesn't sit right, then I will study it until it does sit right. God first. Not the bible.
I am also aware of many of the pitfalls such a view as mine can have. The personal opinions and beliefs that a person might run off with. But you see, even with sola-scriptura people have their personal beliefs and opinions that they run off with! So what is sola-scriptura afraid of? It's afraid of controlling men who want to push traditions above the bible. I agree with sola-scriptura in this sense. But I will trust that God can make His church by the Spirit. Anyway, that might be enough on this topic as it is covered in other threads.
I think you ask the wrong question. What you should be asking is, can we take doctrine from Jesus' parables?
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He is not always talking to the Jews. Sometimes He explains things to His own disciples etc. And appealing to what "most christians" believe is not a strong argument. If it were, you would give up the seventh-day because most keep Sunday.
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Interesting translation. The sabbath came because of mankind. This could mean the sabbath came because mankind weren't resting. And that makes sense because the Israelite's were slaves and worked 7 days a week.
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Your logic has you deleting all the teaching of Jesus for Christians because after all Jesus was "talking to Jews" in the gospels.
Most Christians on both sides of the Sabbath debate would not go to that extreme
turns out... his disciples where Jews.
Your apparent rule is of the form "whatever God says to Jews must not be used for doctrine" does not fit any text known to mankind - specifically nothing at all like 2 Tim 3:16 regarding "all scripture".
You have free will of course and can choose that path if you wish ... but it is not a compelling argument for the rest of us.
Nor is "hey Sabbath keepers" as if the post is not in fact flying in the face of Christians on both sides those who worship on the 7th day and those who worship on the first day - in honor of the Sabbath commandment.
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Are you intentionally misrepresenting me?
This post is directed at Sabbath Keepers. All Sabbath Keepers. Having been raised an SDA I naturally challenge the seventh-day variety.
But why haven't you addressed the argument itself? Can you create a moral criteria that preserves the Sabbath in the list while throwing out the rest of the "ceremonial laws"? This is the discussion I want to have. No-one has entered this discussion yet. There's been a little bit of strawman, a dash of ad hominem, a few counter arguments that are completely off-topic, but no actual response to the OP. Not you by the way, I appreciate how you have actually understood my post. I am yet to see how you will continue though. You don't adhere to the listing criteria. But how do you separate moral and ceremonial laws such that the Sabbath is preserved?
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"Instead of" is the part that is not true. God writes His Law in our heart under the New Covenant of the OT and NT .. in both Jer 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8... but he also writes it externally in scripture and on stone. One does not "delete the other". God is not "deleted" by His own Gospel. It is both-and.
"they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" Acts 17:11 not "they followed their heart and ignored scripture because scripture is external" as I am sure we would both agree.
This thread now takes an unexpected turn - it never occurred to me before now that our real difference is right down to the protestant core of "sola scriptura".
God is the author of the Bible 2 Tim 3:16 , you would agree.
Scripture is to be used for doctrine, you would agree
The Holy Spirit is God, you would agree.
God is always true to His Word, you would agree.
Heb 4 The Word of God is "living and active and sharper than a two edged sword" you would agree.
Matt 4 "man does not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceeds from the mouth of God" you would agree.
John 17:17 "Sanctify them in Thy Truth They WORD is truth" , you would agree.
Because you have a sinful nature as do we all.. and you are a highly subjective being as are we all and your nature would gladly bend-wrench-edit the word of God to suit your preferences, as is the case with the sinful nature that we all have... so you need an objective infallible external source such as the Word of God "for doctrine and correction" 2 Tim 3:16 as do we all.
No division exists between the Spirit and the Word of God which is in fact authored by that same Holy Spirit 2 Peter 1:19-21
The "either or" division you propose does not exist. God's Word is Truth John 17:17 and God's Word "Cannot be broken" according to Christ who says "His WORD will judge".
Opposition to Sola Scriptura comes up whenever someone finds this or that part of the Bible that runs against a preference
If that means you bend - you change your preference to fit scripture - then "So say we all".
If that means you bend-wrench-ignore scripture so as to remain comfortable with your a priori bias then that is a problem.
Bingo!! That is why we uphold scripture as our rule of faith and doctrine rather than the other way around.
And that is why we apply the objective methods of exegesis to understand the text rather than "ignore the details that do not fit your preference".
So then we don't fall into the pit of "ignore the teaching of Jesus - because doctrine given to Jews is not valid" which easily extends to "doctrine written by Jews is not valid" and we are back to "everyone did what was right in his own eyes". Slippery slope indeed.
We get that objection to sola scriptura from catholic posts all the time.
And to them we say "Mormons will come to my home and tell me to ignore sola-scriptura and instead read some statement from Pearl of Great Price - then see if there is a burning in my spirit telling to accept it "... other groups will say "reject sola-scriptura and instead just accept this infallible statement from some supposedly infallible person not of your denomination" Paul will say that people become "seared in their own conscience" following after false doctrine 1 Tim 4:2
More accurately "sola-scriptura is solving the problem of the bias all mankind has towards the words-of-man over the Word of God"
I will trust that God can make His church by the Spirit who gives that Church , Scripture authored BY that Spirit rather than teaching the church to wander off on its own path of preference and bias where each man comes up with stuff according to what is right in his own eyes.
===================================
I think that is the wrong question - what you should be asking is "did Jesus teach doctrinal truth via parables?" - and "can we discount the entire chapter/book if there is symbol/parable in it?" as in the case of Isaiah.
The more "discount this part of the Bible" rules one has, the more risk of having the outcome be a subjective direction not the objective rendering of the teaching in the text.
In one of the gospel accounts Jesus curses a fig tree... if I were to wrench that into "well Jesus is too nice for that - so this is symbolic" then I am free to insert an entire planet load of "other things I would like Jesus to teach" into the "real meaning" behind that account. Very risky.
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Well the text in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:11 does not say "because Hebrew slaves were not allowed to rest". It says "therefore the Lord blessed" and "THEN the Lord blessed and sanctified...". It speaks of day 7 of creation week ... long before there was a single Jew or Egyptian.
Gen 2
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
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