If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

pescador said:
It would help you a lot if you read the Bible without challenging what is written. You must approach God with an open heart and from faith. Study the critical behavior of the Pharisees and ask yourself if you want to be like them or be a person of faith and trust.

I could argue the same. Its like an argument I had with a fellow believer the other day. They said that nowhere in scripture does it say that God uses sin for good and to say do means we'd be following an evil God. But, it does say that several times in the new and old testaments. None of the theology of Calvin was "made up" all of his theology came from his famous interpretations of scripture that at least some is used by almost every Christian denomination.

What I mentioned and questioned in scripture above IS in scripture and it's what it literally says in scripture. True there are a few pieces of scripture that say that God so loved the world that who ever believes in him will have eternal life but you have go look at the context of what Jesus was saying here. Jesus was talking to nicodemus a pharisee who thought that only Jews would inherit the kingdom that the messiah was establishing. But God was saying not just the Jews but it extends over the entire world. Revelation 7:9 kind of illustrates this point when the saved that John saw in heaven were people "from every tribe, nation and language (aka people from around the world)

He did say so that whoever's believes in him but what makes a stone heart person come alive? God. NOBODY can truly come to God for salvation and believe unless it was granted to them by God which I already quoted above John 6:44,66. Tell me, how exactly am I not reading the scriptures? I'm reading them literally as they are written.

pasifika · May 13, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)

Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"

If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.

I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?

If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?

Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?

Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?

If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.

Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?

Hello, this is my take on the subject. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, because His people are sinners just like the rest of the world. But those who belong to Him are those who will receive the forgiveness of their sins through His blood..

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

Albion said:
Jesus suffered and died for the sins of the world, but that didn't give everyone in the world a blank check.

Some will be saved, thanks to His death, while others who have the chance for eternal life--which wasn't open to them before--still will not.

But what would be the point in God suffering for the world if only those in his book of life would be saved? Because he loved them? I could maybe give you that but if salvation was only for God's sheep than Christs deal would only be sufficient for his sheep.

I disagree with that and would sayJesus's death COULD have saved the entire world but ultimately it was those who are written in the book of life that God died for. It was an all sufficient death that completely crucified the sins of Gods children. Not one of his Children will be lost as hes stated multiple times in the gospels and several times in John's Revelation.

Let me put it this way. If God died for the whole world what was the point in him writing a book of life containing each and every one of his Children? Did he look into the future and see which people of the world would accept salvation and which would not and wrote down which would? A possible explanation. But not really scriptural and not really how we converted. Because why did Paul call us "dead in our trespasses and sins and in need of God rescuing us" (Ephesians 2:1-5) which he does in verse 5? What Paul says matches up with what Christ says throughout John 6 and John 3:3-6. We have to be born of God because otherwise there is no way we can be converted out of our fleshly state that only wants sin and its impossible for us to live for God because we are not spiritual.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

Tolworth John said:
It is confusing. Jesus's rightousness can deal with the sins of the whole world many times over.
He knows those who will be saved, but because he knew us and because he wants us to love everyone. He does not tell us who will e saved, we have to preach to, to care fore every person.

Now this every Christian should agree with even the Calvnists and reformed. We are to spread the gospel to everyone we meet and to whom God gives to us. Because, we never know who is saved and who isnt.

A lot of us God opened the hearts of because of Christians like this. We were drawn by God to faith and salvation because we heard the word and gladly accepted it.

One thing is true that should give us all comfort whether God died for the world or just for us. Not one of God's sheep will be lost. They're as numerous as the stars and they are a large multitude of people. God didn't just save a few. He saved a very large portion of humanity.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
While "world" can be used in its natural sense John frequently employs the use of "world" in the sense of meaning that which is at enmity with God in general and Christ in particular.

When we take this meaning we have to see that God "gave" His only begotten Son, the Christ...

God "gave" the gift of His Son, in order to redeem those at enmity with Him.

The Bible is clear as to why this gift was necessary, Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21, Romans 3:11

there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

We are all enemies of God/at emnity with God until such time as we become the recipients of God's Grace through His Son Jesus Christ.

This verse speaks of the why, God had to provide a means of salvation (because we were at emnity with God) through Christ and that He did so out of His deep love for "us", i.e. those He chooses to reconcile to Himself.

Therefore, we see "world" in the sense of understanding that it's meaning the gift is necessary for Gods people the "sheep", because there is no other means of reconciliation to Him, because we likewise fall into the realm of the world at emnity with God, so out of God's deep love, He provides this beautiful gift.

Therefore it does not mean all people... just that all people fall within the realm of those who are enemies of God - even God's people. Therefore out of a deep love a sacrifice for sin had to be given.

You could try and include all people ever born, but as we know this isn't true we have to be discerning to discover what is true about the verse... and what is true is that even the most righteous man needs Christ as Savior in order to stand before a Holy God because even the most righteous man falls far short....so short as to be able to be called enemies of God, dead in our sins until we are plucked out of them through the supernatural working of God displayed in the Sacrifice.

There have been many interpretations of John's usage of the world over the years. I dont think Christian's should be so divided against which is true. Jesus says in his famous prayer "let them (their sheep) be one as we are one." God's desire is that we all be one but the fact of the matter is, because of sin we are not one. We will all argue and debate on theology and on issues like this. We cant wonder why people cant see in scripture what we see. We give the verses defending our beliefs but virtually nobody listens to them and goes on with their own verses or their reply contains no scripture but they call your viewpoint "wrong".

Instead of focusing on the fact that we are God's chosen people. Instead of rejoicing together that we are children of God and we will see and know each other in the next life! We should be filled with joy at this and thank God and be at God's feet for all eternity. True, I'm guilty of this by opening several threads myself and getting 5+ page debates open. But... I like discussing and debating theology. My heart craves for it. For how can we not grow in the theology of God if we dont hear the theology and minds of other Christians?

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

agapelove said:
The Sheep and Goats parable is part of the bigger context of what Jesus is trying to teach in His Olivet Discourse, where he distinguishes between two types of people: Those who will help further the Kingdom of God (caring for the poor and needy) and those who will help further the Kingdom of this world (the opposite of caring for the poor and needy).

The sheep then became synonymous with His disciples and then eventually all believers. In John 10:16 Jesus tells us there will eventually be one flock and one shepherd.

The purpose of believers and unbelievers is to glorify God in the end.
Romans 9:17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

"Those who the Father has given him" is referring specifically to his 12 disciples.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The son of perdition is Judas.

1. It wasnt just the one parable. God talked about his sheep throughout the gospels, John's revelation (in which John explains the book of life and how his people were written in it from before the foundation of the world). And the old testament.

2. Oh I know that. It's purely by God's grace and mercy that the sheep were chosen in the first place. God didnt have to save even one person. Its 100% his grace and mercy that saves us. I wasnt trying to imply anything else. I can see how you can interpret these verses written by Paul the way you do I'd have to do more research for an adequate response. But there are also a lot of verses where Paul teaches that the saved were chosen by God before the foundation of the world (further backed up by John in his Revelation).

3. I've reread all of John 17 including the verse you quoted and you might have a point. But Jesus has used this terminology before in John 6:37 when referring to his sheep so you can see my confusion. I think elsewhere too but john 6 and 10 stays in my mind.

4. Yup. There was no hope for him. And there was only no hope because God preplanned that he would betray Christ. But God also had used Pilate, the Pharisees, and the soldiers who crucified and mocked Jesus too. For without them executing Jesus there would have been no hope for anyone. Whether Christ died for the world or for his children. Nobody would be saved if not for the crucifixion of Jesus. They had to obey God 100% and later be punished for crucifying Gods son for the greater good or no hope would exist for humanity at all.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

zoidar said:
I came to think of one more thing. If Jesus didn't bear all sins in the world, how could he have power over all sin in the world? Was his victory on the cross a partial victory over evil or a complete victory over all works of the devil?

Jesus's death was completely 100% sufficient and was sufficient to save all to claim that it wasnt/isnt wouldn't make me a Protestant (or a Christian for that matter). But who he actually died for was his sheep. For a more detailed explanation may I suggest searching for articles on this subject by Rc.Sproul or Spurgeon? Two fantastic reformed theologians that are with Christ and they can give you the in depth explanation that I cannot give you.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

zoidar said:
I will answer this by a philosophical question.

Do you think God could offer someone salvation without having jesus borne their sins? Do you think it would be just and righteous to do so?

No of course not. Christ had to die for the unrighteous to become righteous. Without Christs death we cannot be saved and its 100% by Gods grace. See my reply above for the second question (I read your posts out of order because if the way CF is setting them up)

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

Sam81 said:
That could win a strawman of the year award.

I don't know a single reformed person who believes anything even remotely close to that.

We are absolutely called to live holy, seek first His kingdom and righteousness, and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. The point is that both the power and desire to accomplish this, and persevere in faith to the end, is not innate to ourselves. God creates, in those He chose, all things required to begin and finish His work.

Anen!

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

TLSITD said:
Most of Scripture doesn't say that Christ died for the elect only. He died for the sins of all men, regardless of whether they are God's elect or not. Only the elect will realize the benefits of that sacrifice of atonement, but that doesn't change the fact that God loves the whole world and that Jesus Christ died for the whole world.

God can do whatever He chooses with His creation. It's not our place to question or judge Him.

Believe it or not I agree with most of what you said. That's what makes us Christians unique. Most of us agree with the essentials but yet squabble over the small issues. Two facts are certain. Whether Chrisg died for the elect or the whole world everyone in the book of life will be saved. And two. Christs death was all sufficient and was sufficient to save all.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

chilehed said:
Because God gives everyone, at some point, the grace to be able to turn to him.

I'm not trying to say you're wrong. I'm welcome to adding this view to my theology but where in scripture does it say this?

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

Hammster said:
Actually, my argument was

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
— Luke 19:10

I think He succeeded 100%. Your theology has Him as a failure.

Amen.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

Blade said:
Were given (the bible) just exactly what we need. We know that its written if everything Jesus said and did.. I don't think there are enough books to hold it all.

So about the prayer about His own.. ALL the other times Christ was alone with God... can't ignore that. And behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. And OT God will remember their sin no more.

I think you just can't see. Well read what Moses wrote. See JESUS in all that do you? Yet Christ said.. Moses (Moshe) wrote about me. And no greater "no greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.". And Christ laid His life down for the world. For GOD so loved the world. He didn't come to condemn it.. but to save it through Christ.

And it was not Christ but the FATHER.. Everything Christ did and said.. was the Father. And the lost "if you were blind you would have no sin... you say you see your sin remains". Most of the world is blind.

We didn't find Him .. He found us..we are the ONE SHEEP that was lost.. He left the 99 to get YOU! He made all of this for YOU! How He does this.. He will show you tell you.. YOU ARE the most important on to Him.. then knowing that HE does this for EVERYONE of us. wow.. just PRAISE YOU FATHER in JESUS name

Reformed theology doesnt deny a lot of what you said. We just look at it in a different light.

I think you're right. Not enough was written for us to have the complete one for all theology that Christ prayed for. Christian's have been debating theology since the apostles died. Only they had complete 100% correct theology. And it died with them. Luckily Gods salvation doesnt need 100% correct theology. Luckily the gospel was simple and our theologies grew from our own interpretations of the word.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

chilehed said:
Are you really so unfamiliar with God and scripture that you need someone to quote it to show that He is Just?

Considering only scripture has 100% truth and Chrstians develop their theologies over scripture? Yes. Scripture has been breathed out by God so only scripture is completely 100% reliable.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

YouAreAwesome said:
Because some are saved and some are not.

Because they needed saving.

The lost need an arm reached out to them.

It's not, Romans 5:8 says Jesus died for sinners.

Because things were about to get crazy for His followers.

Because He wants to save them all.

It doesn't.

It has.

I deny it.

How can God regret at all under these premises you provide?

They had the chance. The time ran out.

Bible reference?

They didn't want to get saved.

Jonah preached destruction but the people turned and changed their ways.

Sorry, I know I have answered very briefly but there is so much to be said on this topic that it would take a few books. All I can say is, Jesus Himself is the elect, Romans 9 through to Romans 11 deal with the Gentiles being included into the faith. God's door of salvation is open to all. I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

Finally someone who replied to all my questions. I wish your reply was a tad more informative though. I dont have much to debate with you on. Could you explain further please and provide scripture for your argument? Dont mean to sound like a jerk so if I came off that way i apologize.

Neostarwcc · May 13, 2020

pasifika said:
Hello, this is my take on the subject. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, because His people are sinners just like the rest of the world. But those who belong to Him are those who will receive the forgiveness of their sins through His blood..

Question. How does that work? If Christ died for all only to save the sheep of God what is the point of him dying and suffering for the worlds sins? Put another way why did God die for the sins of those not written? What is the point in God suffering extra if only his sheep will be saved?

zoidar · May 13, 2020

Neostarwcc said:
Jesus's death was completely 100% sufficient and was sufficient to save all to claim that it wasnt/isnt wouldn't make me a Protestant (or a Christian for that matter). But who he actually died for was his sheep. For a more detailed explanation may I suggest searching for articles on this subject by Rc.Sproul or Spurgeon? Two fantastic reformed theologians that are with Christ and they can give you the in depth explanation that I cannot give you.

I am also of the belief that Jesus died for his sheep. I'm also of the belief that Jesus was punished for the sins of everyone, which reformers don't believe.

Two valid questions are:

Can anyone become a sheep?

Can a sheep be eternally lost?

I would answer both questions with "yes".

John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Matthew 18:5
And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me

Matthew 18:12-14
“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

Hammster · May 13, 2020

zoidar said:
I am also of the belief that Jesus died for his sheep. I'm also of the belief that Jesus was punished for the sins of everyone, which reformers don't believe.

Two valid questions are:

Can anyone become a sheep?

Can a sheep be eternally lost?

I would answer both questions with "yes".

John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Matthew 18:5
And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me

Matthew 18:12-14
“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish."

There no scripture that says goats become sheep.

zoidar · May 13, 2020

Hammster said:
There no scripture that says goats become sheep.

No, is there anywhere in scripture a person is called a goat before the day of judgement?

Hammster · May 13, 2020

zoidar said:
No, is there anywhere in scripture a person is called a goat before the day of judgement?

All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
— Matthew 25:32-33

If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

Well-Known Member

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Psalm 144:1

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Psalm 144:1

Similar threads