THE FALSE TEACHINGS OF UNIVERSALISM - BEWARE!

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ClementofA

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Yep did you notice the "MANY" does not mean the "ALL"? Again did you know that the "MANY" are the "JUST"?

The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".

Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)
 
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ClementofA

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Yep did you notice who those are are that are made alive? Those "IN CHRIST" are made alive.

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Verse 22 says "in Christ shall ALL be made alive". Not...only all those in Christ at the second coming will be made alive. Not...only those who believe in Christ in their mortal lifetime will be made alive. You reversed the order of v.22 to try to make it say something it doesn't.

Yep so what does ALL SHALL BE SUBDUED UNDER HIM? It means all power in Heaven and Earth is given to JESUS the context is to JESUS being the first fruits from the dead and MANY that are IN CHRIST being saved *1 CORINTHIANS 15:22-28. The scriptures as shown in vease 22 (IN CHRIST - BELIEVERS) do not say that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved.

Here you inject your twisting of verse 22 into your opinion about v.28.

1 Cor.15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

How many will be "under His feet"? Just enemies or all:

1 Cor.15:27 For “He has put in subjection all under His feet.” But when it may be said that all has been put in subjection, it is evident that the One having put in subjection all to Him is excepted.

So there is only one exception to "all" to be "put...under his feet". Then God will be "in" "all", hence universal salvation:

1 Cor.15:28 And when all shall be subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all under him, that God may be all in all.

Even the Son will be "subject" to God (v.28).

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love."

Fortunately no "eternal death" ever appears in the Sacred Scriptures (66 books of the Bible). To the contrary, death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.
 
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Lazarus Short

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JB, if your justice system is bifurcated to total 'bliss' or 'misery' and the sole condition is 'accepted Jesus before death?', then you do not have a justice system, you have a computer game unworthy of even a child's interest. A total cartoon caricature. Come on, even man's justice is way better than that.

I have given that dualism/bifurcation some thought - the concept of making a decision for or against Jesus the Christ before the instant of your death - leading to eternal results. I think it makes about as much sense as the position of the planets in the sky at the moment of your birth having a lasting effect on your life ever after...
 
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ClementofA

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20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Yep key verse is tha there is PEACE by the BLOOD OF HIS CROSS. Not all men accept it right? The reconcile ALL THINGS unto himself is in context to those who accept the BLOOD OF HIS CROSS. Many will not choose the BLOOD OF HIS CROSS to be RECONCILED. Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved? - Nope.

Let's be clear. It is not my view that the unrepentant wicked will be saved at the time of the second coming. This is in response to your query: "Does the scripture claim what you are claiming that the unrepentant wicked at the second coming will be saved?"

I would point out that Col.1:20 says peace has been made already through the blood of the cross:

16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Since "peace" has been "made...through the blood of the cross", how can God let anyone end up being tortured or terminated from existence forever? Likewise since God is not holding men's sins against them (2 Cor.5:19) how can any be lost forever?

"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling
but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

"...found only in Christian writers...reconcile everything in his own person, i.e. the universe is to form a unity, which has its goal in Christ Col 1:20..." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament & Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG), 3rd edition, 2000, p.112).

"...Jesus existed before all things, He created all things, He holds together all things, and He will reconcile all things. And what does it mean for God to "reconcile to himself
all things"? It is clear that the word reconcile means more than squashing opposition. It means a full restoration of peace and harmony."

"...The "all things" of verse 20 is as extensive as the "all things" of verse 16. So just as God created everything and everybody through Christ, so He will reconcile everything
and everybody through Christ (not everything except most of humanity!). The universe will be completely restored to its original perfection and peace. No one will be at enmity
with God or with one another. He will completely fulfill "the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure"—"to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one
head, even Christ" (Ephesians 1:10). Going from the depths of mankind's depravity to the total reconciliation of everyone to God and to each other will be more glorious than if we had never fallen in the first place. The restoration of every single relationship to perfect harmony through the work of reconciliation on the cross will be the most spectacular demonstration imaginable of the grace and justice and wisdom and power and love of God."
http://blogs.christianpost.com/amba...e-heart-of-gods-grand-plan-for-creation-7138/

"Just as His glories in creation take us back to the very beginning, so the greater glories of reconciliation take us to the very consummation. The universal reconciliation cannot be fully accomplished till the close of the eonian times, when all sovereignty and authority and power and even death are rendered inoperative (1Cor.15:24-27)...(Concordant Commentary, AE Knoch, 1968, Col.1:20, p.303).

There is a parallel here:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

It's quite astonishing that many insist that the parallel of aionios in Mt.25:46 means the word must be of the same meaning & duration in both instances, but they don't apply the same reasoning to other passages with parallels, such as Col.1:20 above and these:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die - so also - in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Read more: What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
 
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FineLinen

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Let's hear from the ladies shall we?

Sharon Baker

https://www.nomadpodcast.co.uk/nomad-60-sharon-baker-and-razing-hell/

Madeleine L'Engle

L'Engle was Episcopalian and believed in Christian universalism, which insisted that everyone will ultimately be saved by God. She meditated on religious issues in such books as And It Was Good: Reflections on Beginnings (1983). L'Engle also worked at St. John the Divine in New York City as a librarian and writer-in-residence for more than three decades.

TOP 25 QUOTES BY MADELEINE L'ENGLE (of 427) | A-Z Quotes

quote-we-do-not-draw-people-to-christ-by-loudly-discrediting-what-they-believe-by-telling-madeleine-l-engle-65-55-58.jpg


An interview with Ilaria Ramelli

Let's hear from the ladies shall we?

Sharon Baker

https://www.nomadpodcast.co.uk/nomad-60-sharon-baker-and-razing-hell/

Madeleine L'Engle

L'Engle was Episcopalian and believed in Christian universalism, which insisted that everyone will ultimately be saved by God. She meditated on religious issues in such books as And It Was Good: Reflections on Beginnings (1983). L'Engle also worked at St. John the Divine in New York City as a librarian and writer-in-residence for more than three decades.

TOP 25 QUOTES BY MADELEINE L'ENGLE (of 427) | A-Z Quotes

quote-we-do-not-draw-people-to-christ-by-loudly-discrediting-what-they-believe-by-telling-madeleine-l-engle-65-55-58.jpg


An interview with Ilaria Ramelli


A word to the elect =
 
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FineLinen

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Let's hear from the ladies shall we?

Sharon Baker

https://www.nomadpodcast.co.uk/nomad-60-sharon-baker-and-razing-hell/

Madeleine L'Engle

L'Engle was Episcopalian and believed in Christian universalism, which insisted that everyone will ultimately be saved by God. She meditated on religious issues in such books as And It Was Good: Reflections on Beginnings (1983). L'Engle also worked at St. John the Divine in New York City as a librarian and writer-in-residence for more than three decades.

TOP 25 QUOTES BY MADELEINE L'ENGLE (of 427) | A-Z Quotes

quote-we-do-not-draw-people-to-christ-by-loudly-discrediting-what-they-believe-by-telling-madeleine-l-engle-65-55-58.jpg


An interview with Ilaria Ramelli


A Word to The 'Elect ’

You may rejoice to think yourselves secure;
You may be grateful for the gift divine -
That grace unsought, which made your black hearts pure,
And fits your earth-born souls in Heaven to shine.

But, is it sweet to look around, and view
Thousands excluded from that happiness
Which they deserved, at least, as much as you, -
Their faults not greater, nor their virtues less? -Anne Bronte-
 
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agapelove

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What......... are you talking about..

This is only for those that are of a mental maturity and capacity to be responsible and accountable for their actions and decisions.

Or, are you of the mind that aborted babies, mentally retarded, those with cerebral palsy, autistic, and those that never live to an age where they are even capable of comprehending the gospel, right, wrong, sin, repentance.... are going to be condemned by a God who personifies love, mercy and grace?

Your question is ridiculous.

It was meant to be ridiculous.

I am trying to show how the measuring stick for “repenting before the second coming” is NOT sufficient for ALL people.

If God is able to extend mercy for THESE unbelievers why can he not for ALL?
 
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agapelove

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It is not aimed at you dear friend. It is aimed at the teaching which I believe I have proven from the scriptures is not biblical. That is what the OP is about. You do not have to come here if you do not wish to as no one is forcing you to and the OP topic is clearly labelled. Pehaps God has brought you here for a reason? If you feel convicted then perhaps it is God's Spirit talking with you? Please do not get upset because scriptures and questions are provided that challenge what you believe. That is not the purpose of this thread.

We will indeed have to agree to disagree. I believe everything you have provided has been, examined in detail through the scriptures showing why I believe what you have provided is in error. What you are teaching and claiming I beleive is unsupported by scripture and is not biblical. For me I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. Ignoring God's Word does not make it disappear. It becomes our judge come judgement day. Thanks for sharing your thoughts but as you can tell I do not believe you. That is nothing personal I have shown why I do not believe your claims to Universalism and asked you for scripture which you have been unable to provide. You are free to believe as you want and I wish you well and pray that our conversation has given you something to pray about.

I am not offended by the scriptures you are showing me. I am offended by your assumptions that I live like the devil, which you have clearly assumed about all universalists.

I urge you to approach people who think differently with a little more love and compassion. I have never once claimed that anihilist beliefs are “from the devil” even though I personally find the idea of it repulsive and not biblical.
 
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a-lily-of-peace

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"As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

Do you believe that demons will be sanctified?
 
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Oldmantook

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Responded with...

You then read what you did not earlier...

Goodness dear friend so you decided to read that post. So do you have anything to apologise for? I will ignore your unfounded accusations that you cannot prove and let God's Word do the talking for me as I think God's Word speaks louder then empty words that are not based on truth. The context of the sciptures were provided to answer your question. That is why they were provided as the answer to your questions was in the scripture context you left out. You seem to like cherry picking the scriptures devoid of context and this is what has lead you in to a false interpretation of the scriptures. Not just for REVELATION 22:14 as demonstrated in the linked posts provided in post 921 linked but also for REVELATION 21:23-27 demonstrated in the chapter context you ignored.

Hmmm Yep and this is relevant how? Did I disagree or say that βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς does not mean kings of the earth? -Nope

No wonder you finding this difficult. Your not reading context again. Let see why your not applying context again. The context of ....

REVELATION 21:23-27 [23], And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
[24], AND THE NATIONS OF THEM WHICH ARE SAVED SHALL WALK IN THE LIGHT OF IT: AND THE KINGS OF THE EARTH DO BRING THEIR GLORY AND HONOR INTO IT.
[25], And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
[26], And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it.
[27], AND THERE SHALL IN NO WISE ENTER INTO IT ANY THING THAT DEFILES, NEITHER WHATEVER WORKS ABOMINATION, OR MAKES A LIE: BUT THEY WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAMB'S BOOK OF LIFE

Note: the above passage to nations of the earth and the kings that enter into the city or God's Kingdom is in reference to the new JERUSALEM that comes down from heaven prepared for the God's saints. Note v24 it is the nations and the kings of the saved not the wicked. The wicked are outside of the city of God and are not written in the Lambs book of life v27. In fact the unrepentant wicked as shown in the context of REVELATION 21:8 are outside of the city in the lake or fire receiving the punishment of their sins which is the "SECOND DEATH" *REVELATION 21:8 also repeated in REVELATION 22:15. So nope no wicked in the city of God.

Who are the kings of the nations of the saved? Well dear friend there are so many shall we list a few? How about these...

1. King David *1 Kings 15:5
2. King Solomon *2 Chronicles 1-9; 1 Kings 3:3
3. King Asa *2 Chronicles 14-16; 1 Kings 5:11-14
4. King Jehoshaphat *2 Chronicles 17-20; 1 Kings 22:42-43
5. King Jotham *2 Kings 15; 2 Kings 15:32-34
6. King Uzziah *2 Chronicles 26; 2 Chronicles 26:3-4
7. King Hezekiah *2 Chronicles 29-32; 2 Kings 18:1-6
8. King Josiah *2 Chronicles 34-35; 2 Kings 22:1-2

Remember dear friend that context of REVELATION 21:23-27 is to the saved not the wicked. All the unrepentant wicked are outside of the city and receiving the "SECOND DEATH IN THE LAKE OF FIRE" *REVELATION 21:8 and are not written in the lambs book of life *REVELATION 21:27. This is the context of REVELATION 21 and REVELATION 22.

Indeed! I see a BIG problem here dear friend. You have run away from the CONTEXT of REVELATION 21:7-27, which is in reference to the "SAVED" nations (multitudes) and kings of the earth to scripture references of the "WICKED KINGS" of the earth and taking the scriptures out of context again even after the scriptures expressly state that NONE OF THE WICKED ENTER THE CITY AND THE KINGDOM OF GOD. All the unrepentant "WICKED" are outside of the city in receiving the "SECOND DEATH" in the lake of fire *REVELATION 21:8; REVELATION 21:27; REVELTION 22:14-15. These scriptures are the CONTEXT of REVELATION 21. Your scriptures are in refernece to the "WICKED" Kings of the world not the saved. Your house of cards dear friend has come crashing down. Do you understand why you are in error friend? Your mixing up the saved with the wicked and removing yourself from the scripture CONTEXTS again.

Hope this helps
Of course the saved nations and kings of the earth enter the city as that is what the verse specifically states. Big problem for you though is that throughout the entire book or Revelation, the kings of the earth are wicked. YET they enter the new Jerusalem. In your attempt to justify your belief and resolve this discrepancy, you compile a list of kings and claim they are the ones being referred to in Rev 21:24. That is laughable as those are dead kings in the OT. The kings of the earth referenced in Revelation are alive during the tribulation and are aligned with mystery Babylon; who die when Jesus returns and conquers them. I guess you don't know the difference between dead and alive. Care to take another swing at it?
 
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agapelove

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Not really dear sister. "IN CHRIST" means those who have accepted CHRIST. Read the supporting scriptures. "IN CHRIST" is in reference to the saved not the "WICKED"!

For as in Adam all die. So in Christ all shall be made alive.

Did we have to “accept” the dying in Adam? Does “all die” not really mean all? The parallel they are making is implying that being “in Christ” is not just dependent on repentance but it is foreshadowing that ALL being made alive IN CHRIST is something that WILL HAPPEN.
 
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ClementofA

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"Sarchasm"... Definition... Not to be confused with "sarcasm"...
"Sarchasm" is stating something as a ridicule but, after stating the ridiculing statement the third time, you are called out on it... ... Then... you claim "sarcasm" to save face and further ridicule.

Sorry, but - i - didn't claim sarcasm.

It's similar to "Geoking" (pronounced "joking") Where the offender states something as a fact.. but, after being shown they are in serious error... claim it was a "joke"...

So everyone who tells the same joke more than two times is morally obligated to state after the 3rd time..."but you guys know i was joking, right"?

"Sure, what is wrong with letting a person live happily forever in “Sin City”, as opposed to being nonexistent or being roasted alive for endless ages. I know what my choice would be. And, morally speaking, I’d think a Loving Being would agree with that choice.

The thing is, if that person still had a conscience, how happy could they be in light of what i assume would be sinful selfish life? Would God turn off their conscience or memory of their life in the past? Would that put them on the level with being a mere animal? Would observing this person’s endless life in Vegas be a sweet smelling incense in God’s nostrils? Surely He has something better to offer and give, something far sweeter & more satisfying to both mankind, the angels & Himself.

Makes sense?"

God.. will not make you endure eternity in heaven with Him if you don't want to....

Because He loves you.. .He grants your wishes.

Who would wish to be annihilated out of existence forever?

For Love Omnipotent to do so would be to deny Himself, what He is, namely Love Omnipotent. But the Scriptures say He cannot do that:

2 Tim.2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
 
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Lazarus Short

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A Word to The 'Elect ’

You may rejoice to think yourselves secure;
You may be grateful for the gift divine -
That grace unsought, which made your black hearts pure,
And fits your earth-born souls in Heaven to shine.

But, is it sweet to look around, and view
Thousands excluded from that happiness
Which they deserved, at least, as much as you, -
Their faults not greater, nor their virtues less? -Anne Bronte-

I'm reminded of a friend's poem from years ago - it was about cattlemen in the Old West, and if memory serves, it ended like so: "...they ended up hanging men...who only wanted the same."
 
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ClementofA

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It matters not...

The question will not be "did you have help in killing all those people"?

The question will be "did you accept Christ as your savior"?

Sounds about right. Could use more elaboration, though, just like this remark:

Your post has, however, restored my faith in the fact that people can find and excuse to justify anything.

Sorry, I have no idea where you're coming from with that remark. Or how you got that out of my post.
 
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ClementofA

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You keep posting other people's views and therories.... These people obviously support your view or you support theirs..

I go by scripture..

King David prayed and put on sackcloth and ashes to have his sick child live...

Well here:


2 Samuel 12:21-23 New International Version (NIV)

21 His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive, you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

22 He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, ‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’ 23 But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

Is there a point to posting that Scripture & the enlarged letters portion?
 
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ClementofA

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Do you believe that demons will be sanctified?

Some universalists think so. Consider the following Scriptures & opinions:

"I once heard a child ask if everyone prayed for Satan if he could be saved too. Now I realize this will send some people over the edge, but I thought it one of the most endearing questions I ever heard."

"Origen (185-255) believed that Satan would eventually be reconciled to God (though he would be the last to submit)."

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb into the eons of the eons.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.

20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.)

Eph.1:10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both in the heavens and on the earth

Ephesians 3:8-10
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Ephesians 6:12
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once upon the end of the eons hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Heb.9:26)

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn.1:29)

He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (Rev.21:5a)

“Is anything impossible for the LORD?” (Gen.18:14)

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Luke 1:37
For nothing will be impossible with God."

Romans 4:21
being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised.

Now to the One being able to do exceedingly above all things that we ask or think (Eph.3:20a)

“If Love Omnipotent doesn’t save Satan, is it because He can’t or doesn’t want to?”

"I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. :idea: Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

FineLinen;5268763 said:
Every created thing (παν κτισμα — pān ktisma).

Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from κτιζω — ktizō for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18),

from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in Revelation 5:3,

with on the sea επι της ταλασσης — epi tēs thalassēs added).

No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (κτισις — ktisis) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.

Saying (λεγοντας — legontas). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have λεγοντα — legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with παντα — panta) present active participle of λεγω — legō to say.

And to the Lamb (και τωι αρνιωι — kai tōi arniōi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. Note separate articles here in the doxology as in Revelation 4:11 and the addition of το κρατος — to kratos (active power) in place of ισχυς — ischus (reserve of strength) in Revelation 5:12.

-Robertson Word Pictures-

FineLinen;5268766 said:
Col 1.16=

All things (τα παντα — ta panta). The universe as in Romans 11:35, a well-known philosophical phrase. It is repeated at the end of the verse.

In him were created (εν αυτωι εκτιστη — en autōi ektisthē). Paul now gives the reason (οτι — hoti for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (Colossians 1:16 f.). It is the constative aorist passive indicative εκτιστη — ektisthē (from κτιζω — ktizō old verb, to found, to create (Romans 1:25).

This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2 and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy. The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. God wrought through “the Son of his love.” All earthly dignities are included.

Have been created (εκτισται — ektistai). Perfect passive indicative of κτιζω — ktizō “stand created,” “remain created.” The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe.

Through him (δι αυτου — di' autou). As the intermediate and sustaining agent. He had already used εν αυτωι — en autōi (in him) as the sphere of activity.

And unto him (και εις αυτον — kai eis auton).

This is the only remaining step to take and Paul takes it (1 Corinthians 15:28) See note on Ephesians 1:10 for similar use of εν αυτωι — en autōi of Christ and in Colossians 1:19, Colossians 1:20 again we have εν αυτωι δι αυτου εις αυτον — en autōiclass="normal greek">δι ον — di' autouclass="normal greek">δι ου — eis auton used of Christ.

See note on Hebrews 2:10 for τα παντα — di' hon (because of whom) and εχ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα — di' hou (by means of whom) applied to God concerning the universe (εχ — ta panta).

In Romans 11:35 we find εν — ex autou kai di' autou kai eis auton ta panta referring to God. But Paul does not use δια — ex in this connection of Christ, but only εις — en εχ — dia and δια — eis See the same distinction preserved in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (ex of God, dia of Christ).

A.T. Robertson (Word Pictures)
 
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JacksBratt

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It was meant to be ridiculous.

I am trying to show how the measuring stick for “repenting before the second coming” is NOT sufficient for ALL people.

If God is able to extend mercy for THESE unbelievers why can he not for ALL?
Simply because the others have a choice.. They are fully cognitive of their sinfulness, their rejection of Christ and their denial of a God.

Therefore, they are fully responsible for their choice.

Those who are ignorant of their sins for reasons of being an infant, mentally incapable, or just plain too young to comprehend it enough to have their eternal destiny held to their choices.... will be judged by a wonderfully loving, just and righteous Creator.

Again, everyone will stand before their creator at one time...

All those will be judged.

All those judgements will be final.

Nobody will have the authority or basis to contradict this final judgement...

Everyone will admit that their personal and thorough sentence is righteous, just and fitting.

This is due to the simple and plain fact that God is all powerful, all knowing and knows each of us better than we know ourselves.

There will be no need for an appeal...
 
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ClementofA

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It’s something I have considered. I’m asking if you, in your heart, believe it to be true.

Sorry, I understood your question & i still have no comment besides what i posted.

Are you a hopeful universalist?

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."
 
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Sorry, I understood your question & i still have no comment besides what i posted.

Are you a hopeful universalist?

Love Omnipotent loves you more than you can imagine!

"The simplest way to know if someone is preaching the gospel of grace is to evaluate whether the teaching glorifies our Lord Jesus."
If it takes 51 pages to get to “no comment” maybe 51 more will come to a response.

“No one, when he has lit a lamp, covers it with a vessel or puts it under a bed, but sets it on a lampstand, that those who enter may see the light. For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. (Luke 8:16-17, NKJV)
 
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