A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace · Apr 6, 2020

keras said:
This is an opiniated rant, a personal attack that shows an intransigent attitude.

Just show me ONE scripture that says God will take His people to heaven. No assumptions, suppositions, or guesswork.

You would then be the winner of this discussion. As you fail to provide this proof, then you are the loser.

I showed you multiple Scripture and you rejected it. I am free of my responsibility. Thanks for the conversation.

keras · Apr 6, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I showed you multiple Scripture and you rejected it. I am free of my responsibility. Thanks for the conversation.

I will say it again: NONE of the scriptures you posted said that God will take His people to heaven.
You still have a responsibility, because if you promote and teach anything that is not Biblical, then you are a teacher of false theories. James 3:1

I will continue to call out anyone who does this; not because I don't like a brother or sister in Christ, but in the hope of getting them to see the truth of God's plans for the world.

sovereigngrace · Apr 6, 2020

keras said:
I will say it again: NONE of the scriptures you posted said that God will take His people to heaven.
You still have a responsibility, because if you promote and teach anything that is not Biblical, then you are a teacher of false theories. James 3:1

I will continue to call out anyone who does this; not because I don't like a brother or sister in Christ, but in the hope of getting them to see the truth of God's plans for the world.

I refer you back to my last post. It is pointless engaging with you.

claninja · Apr 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I have noted your lack of credible evidence for both your doctrines and factual detail (as above).

No you haven't. You just continue to generically state that that my position of what Amil means is opposite of the Amil quotes I provided, which makes no sense.

My positional on Amil is the exact same as the following 5 quotes.

1.) A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

2.) The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

3.) From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

4.) Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

5.) Anthony Hoekema
"Amillennialists interpret the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 describing the present reign of the souls of the deceased believers with Christ in heaven. They understand the binding of satan mentioned in the first three verses of this chapter as being in effecting DURING THE ENTIRE PERIOD BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND COMINGS OF CHRIST."

sovereigngrace said:
This is just another example of it. That is why i ignore most of it. You seem to take that as corroboration for your position, but it is the opposite. I don't have the motivation or interest to quote 300 Amil writers. You are determined to misrepresent Amil, and no one will change you. Why should I waste time?

More generic statements that don't actually address anything I posted, with more blatantly untrue statements that I misrepresent Amil. All of the quotes I provided support the traditional view of Amil.

sovereigngrace said:
It doesn't matter how someone who espouses Full Preterist error defines Amil. It doesn't matter how some nameless Mod on another forum defines Amil. It doesn't matter how Dispensationalist John Walvoord defines Amil. It matters how Amils define themselves.

Anthony Hoekema, an Amil, agrees with the traditional view that has the binding of Satan during the "entire period" between the 1st and 2nd comings.

"Amillennialists interpret the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 describing the present reign of the souls of the deceased believers with Christ in heaven. They understand the binding of satan mentioned in the first three verses of this chapter as being in effecting DURING THE ENTIRE PERIOD BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND COMINGS OF CHRIST."

Still waiting for you to provide evidence that Amil means anything else then what I have stated with supporting quotations.

sovereigngrace said:
What is more, Amil J.G. Vos believes what I do on this matter. If you would simply take the time to do some research instead of posting this stuff it would save you a lot of time misrepresenting other peoples views. He states in Studies on Revelation: "Many of these, and people who hold the amillennial interpretation hold that post-millennialists have tended to by-pass or treat very lightly the Bible prophecies of the increase of evil, a kind of thing that we have noticed some of in our study of this book. The beast and the false prophet, and so forth, who seem to be disposed of by Christ at His Second Coming, not by the triumph of world evangelism or missions. That is amillennialism. It would hold that for a long period of time Satan has been largely limited in what he can do. That however at the end of this long period, he must be released for “a little season,” and that it is possible that we are now on the verge of the beginning of Satan’s “little season.” We are seeing unbelief and wickedness bold and extreme, and the influence of Christianity and the saints among the educated and intelligent people of this world greatly toned down and restricted."

The irony just continues. I'm misrepresenting other people's views?

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner QUOTING FROM J.G. VOS:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

We can clearly see that J.G. Vos believes the millennium continues until the 2nd coming from the above quote.

Now, the quote your provided doesn't even state that satans little season occurs "after" the millennium. It states that at the "end" of this long period of time satan will have a little season.

Thus, J.G. Vos' position is consistent with what Amil teaches. The millennium is symbolic for the time between the ascension and the 2nd coming. At the end, not after this millennium, satan has a little season. This is consistent with the Amil diagram posted by CG in post 395.

Please don't misrepresent J.G. Vos.

claninja · Apr 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are trying to present a BIG devil and a small god. Amil has a BIG God and a small devil.

Yes, 1 Peter 5:8 says, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” but you fail to complete the teaching of the passage or grasp the power the believer possesses. The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

We have power over Satan since the cross! While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. By resisting Satan and staying steadfast we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of his evil designs. This was powerfully manifested at the time of our conversion when the grip of Satan was immediately released. The claim he had upon our lives was instantly annulled and the control he brought to bare within us was immediately broke. The chains that brutally ensnared us fell off and the bondage Satan bound us with was lifted. Significantly, what is true of the individual is also true of the collective. When the Gospel penetrates into a community, city or a nation the same effect is wrought. We destroy Satan’s power, influence and delusion as we present “the glorious Gospel of Christ” through the nations. Satan cannot resist the victorious global spread of the Gospel. Through the work of the cross and in the power of the Holy Spirit, the Church clearly possesses the power to bind the devil’s activity and influence, or why would God in any way instruct His people to “resist stedfast” that great foe?

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is a well-tested principle that the saints of old have proved down through the years. You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original is the Greek word pheugo. It means to escape, flee away or vanish. It gives the idea of a worried foe frantically trying to get away from his captor. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to posses spiritual territory.

Amils believe the Church is victorious. Your doctrine is a negative defeated theology full of doom and gloom. Ephesians 6:16 tells us that by “faith” believers are, “able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked [one].” Being the people of God, born of the Spirit of God, we are sanctioned to “withstand in the evil day” (Ephesians 6:13). Through the power of God we are “able to stand against the wiles of the devil” (Ephesians 6:11) and “having done all, to stand.”

Amils don't deny that the kingdom will arrive in all its fullness and final glory at Christ's Coming and we will reign eternally on the regenerated earth, but we reign now "in life" (Romans 5:17) as "kings and priests" (1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:5-6) advancing the battle for truth in enemy territory and reigning in spiritual authority over the kingdom of darkness. Our battle is not against "flesh and blood" (Ephesians 6:12) but “against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”

Some people speak so highly of the devil's power they render Christ and His body – the Church – as the impotent party in the conflict between good and evil and Satan and his minions as the dominant party. The truth is: every true blood-bought child of the Lord has “overcome” the devil, and is overcoming the devil as they spread the good news of the kingdom to a deluded world. For the obedient believer standing upon the promises of God and using it to confront Satan, Scripture says in 1 John 2:13 & 14, “ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.”

The people of God here are expressly said to have “overcome the wicked one.” They have an inner strength that enables them to overcome Satan; that strength is Jesus. Moreover, that revelation of Christ comes through the fact that “the word of God abideth in” them. 1 John 5:4-5 further states, “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

The whole tenure of this passage indicates conflict – conflict with a foe that is defeated. This passage is saturated in victory. The negativity surrounding the Premillennial view of the conflict between light and darkness is unfortunate.

1 John 4:4 says, “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Satan is a little devil in regard to our big God.

So if it is not a physical battle with physical weapons it is a spiritual battle with spiritual weapons. 2 Corinthians 10:3-5 says, “For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.”

We ARE kings now, we do reign now "in life." However, when Christ comes we enter into the glory and full realization of eternal kingly position.

As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel. Revelation 12:11 says, “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. The overcoming Church now sits in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:37-39, declares, “we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Nice deflect SG with the whole "you believe in a big devil and little God". I agree that we, the elect, are conquerors and can resist satan due to him being bound by the work of the cross. All of your verses are very clear on that. No disagreement with that. The gospel continues to spread, people continue to come to Christ, and church continues to grow and conquer to this day. "of the increase of His government, there is no end".

But you are not addressing how satan has the following abilities while being bound:

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) satan had a throne on earth in the 1st century
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

g.) Satan had blinded the minds of unbelievers in Paul's time.
2 corinthians 4:4 the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

h.) Satan's work in the sons of disobedience in the 1st century
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience

My belief is that the loosing of satan is not that satan's kingdom grows, but serves a purpose in God's will for refining the elect, while those that are not elect take part in apostasy.

Romans 4:3-5 Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

sovereigngrace · Apr 7, 2020

claninja said:
No you haven't. You just continue to generically state that that my position of what Amil means is opposite of the Amil quotes I provided, which makes no sense.

My positional on Amil is the exact same as the following 5 quotes.

1.) A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

2.) The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

3.) From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

4.) Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

5.) Anthony Hoekema
"Amillennialists interpret the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 describing the present reign of the souls of the deceased believers with Christ in heaven. They understand the binding of satan mentioned in the first three verses of this chapter as being in effecting DURING THE ENTIRE PERIOD BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND COMINGS OF CHRIST."

More generic statements that don't actually address anything I posted, with more blatantly untrue statements that I misrepresent Amil. All of the quotes I provided support the traditional view of Amil.

Anthony Hoekema, an Amil, agrees with the traditional view that has the binding of Satan during the "entire period" between the 1st and 2nd comings.

"Amillennialists interpret the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 describing the present reign of the souls of the deceased believers with Christ in heaven. They understand the binding of satan mentioned in the first three verses of this chapter as being in effecting DURING THE ENTIRE PERIOD BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND COMINGS OF CHRIST."

Still waiting for you to provide evidence that Amil means anything else then what I have stated with supporting quotations.

The irony just continues. I'm misrepresenting other people's views?

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner QUOTING FROM J.G. VOS:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

We can clearly see that J.G. Vos believes the millennium continues until the 2nd coming from the above quote.

Now, the quote your provided doesn't even state that satans little season occurs "after" the millennium. It states that at the "end" of this long period of time satan will have a little season.

Thus, J.G. Vos' position is consistent with what Amil teaches. The millennium is symbolic for the time between the ascension and the 2nd coming. At the end, not after this millennium, satan has a little season. This is consistent with the Amil diagram posted by CG in post 395.

Please don't misrepresent J.G. Vos.

Do you ever say "sorry" when you are wrong? You are blatantly misrepresenting J.G. Vos and misleading the reader!

Studies in the Book of Revelation -LESSON 81

"Now going on from that, the nature of the restraint of Satan: “and cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and put a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

And what is spoken of here is not all the activities of Satan, or Satan’s evil deeds in general, but his particular major theme here of deceiving the nations. This is what he is restrained from doing, by this bottomless pit, and this seal and this key and this lock; deceiving the nations no more during a period of time. And what this deceiving of nations means is shown by what he does when he’s released for a little season and if you read further on in to verses 7 and 8 of chapter 20, after the thousand years expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And this goes on to describe an all-out attack on Christianity such as there has not been before. An all-out attack, he marshalls every thing at his disposal to attack Christianity and the true church and the true saints of God. Now that’s what he does when he’s released. Therefore that’s what he’s prevented from doing while he’s restrained...

So we take it the restraint of Satan prevents him from hypnotizing the nations of the world and brainwashing them into an all out attack on Christianity. This has given the church a long period, much more than a thousand years, of opportunity for evangelism and Christian education and missionary work and witnessing, which has been more successful than lots of people think. And this continues to this day. However there are signs today of a change on the horizon, and not to be dogmatic and make absolute pronouncements, but it is possible that we are on the verge of Satan’s “little season;” unbelief is growing bold, doors are being shut, people in high places are opposing Christianity, secularism and atheism are strong and powerful, as they have not been before, and so it may be we are on the verge of Satan being released and the all out attack that is described here...

Now I take it there has indeed been a long period during which Satan has been restrained from this kind of thing. This is with regard to the scene on earth. You may have to take the souls reigning with Christ in heaven next Sabbath; I’d rather do this right than hasten through it. But the length of this period is dated by some people who hold the amillennial understanding of prophecy to be from the resurrection of Christ almost to the time of his second coming, to a terminal point unspecifiable but not very long before the end of things ... And from then on there has not been this kind of all-out attack on Christianity and this would be the millennium in which we are still living. Now we are in it today but perhaps are approaching the time of the release of Satan.

Studies in the Book of Revelation -LESSON 82

"The binding of Satan is restraint that he should deceive the nations no more and be cast into the bottomless pit, and so on; we noted that this is figurative language that deals with a powerful restraint placed upon Satan by God. And it does not speak of his being restrained from activity of whatever kind, but from deceiving the nations. This is further confirmed by the fact that when he is released from his prison, he goes out to deceive the nations. That’s the beginning of verse 8. Now this is the scene on this earth. Of course there are various interpretations of this, but to present the most acceptable and plausible interpretation, this covers a long period of time on this earth during which Satan is unable to marshall and work up an all-out attack against Christianity. World wide persecution unto death there has not been; Satan has been restrained and the door to evangelism, and missionary work and Christian witness by and large has been kept open. And this is because the power of Satan has been put under a restraint. It’s spoken of him here as him being bound a thousand years. Now it says after the thousand years he must be loosed a little season, and we shall take that up further in a little bit.

This was the scene however on this earth, and I noted that there are signs; you have to be very careful in attempting to identify the fulfillment of prophecy. It’s one thing to say what is the meaning of it, another thing to nail down the fulfillment, but there seem to be signs in some parts of the world that Satan’s little season is about to open up. The closing of doors to the gospel, the increase of great wickedness suggests this...

The scene on earth, a long period of evangelistic missionary opportunity and opportunity for growth and expansion and witness and activity for the church, to be followed by a little season of persecution."

DavidPT · Apr 7, 2020

claninja said:
Nice deflect SG with the whole "you believe in a big devil and little God". I agree that we, the elect, are conquerors and can resist satan due to him being bound by the work of the cross. All of your verses are very clear on that. No disagreement with that. The gospel continues to spread, people continue to come to Christ, and church continues to grow and conquer to this day. "of the increase of His government, there is no end".

But you are not addressing how satan has the following abilities while being bound:

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) satan had a throne on earth in the 1st century
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

g.) Satan had blinded the minds of unbelievers in Paul's time.
2 corinthians 4:4 the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

h.) Satan's work in the sons of disobedience in the 1st century
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience

My belief is that the loosing of satan is not that satan's kingdom grows, but serves a purpose in God's will for refining the elect, while those that are not elect take part in apostasy.

Romans 4:3-5 Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Here's another one to add to your list. No one can deny that this is meaning after the cross and after the ascension, when satan is supposed to be in the the pit according to most Amils. I wonder if any of those locusts in Revelation 9 are bothering people on earth as well while they are in the pit, since they are suppose to be in the same pit during the same time most Amils claim satan is in the pit? If satan can be in the pit and at the same time hinder these, the same should be true of the locusts in the pit. Yet no one would likely claim these locusts are bothering anyone on earth while in the pit, so why is anyone claiming that satan is bothering people on earth while in the pit? I guess I forgot, satan is on a leash like a dog while he is in the pit, that that explains it.

Regardless what one thinks of Premil, are Premils really better off abandoning that view altogether, then fully embracing views such as SG holds instead? I don't think so. Premil has it's share of problems, I admit. But one is to then believe views such as SG holds, don't?

sovereigngrace · Apr 7, 2020

claninja said:
Nice deflect SG with the whole "you believe in a big devil and little God". I agree that we, the elect, are conquerors and can resist satan due to him being bound by the work of the cross. All of your verses are very clear on that. No disagreement with that. The gospel continues to spread, people continue to come to Christ, and church continues to grow and conquer to this day. "of the increase of His government, there is no end".

But you are not addressing how satan has the following abilities while being bound:

a.) signs and wonders by false prophets to possibly deceive the elect associated with the destruction of Jerusalem in the 1st century
Matthew 24:24-25 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.

b.) Satan prowling around looking to devour someone
1 peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour

c.) Apostasy due to the antichrist in the 1st century
1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us.

d.) Satan disguising himself as an angel of light in order to deceive.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

e.) Satan is loosed to persecute the church upon Christ's ascension
Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them,

Acts 8:1 And Saul was there, giving approval to Stephen’s death. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

f.) satan had a throne on earth in the 1st century
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits.

g.) Satan had blinded the minds of unbelievers in Paul's time.
2 corinthians 4:4 the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

h.) Satan's work in the sons of disobedience in the 1st century
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience

My belief is that the loosing of satan is not that satan's kingdom grows, but serves a purpose in God's will for refining the elect, while those that are not elect take part in apostasy.

Romans 4:3-5 Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out His love into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, whom He has given us

John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

I have explained but you totally ignore the Amil explanation. The binding relates exclusively to the lifting of the deception on the Gentiles (ethnos). The restraint is therefore solely spiritual. Anyway, the restraint is simply to do with the deception of the nations. Satan can no longer deceive the nations as he once did. It solely relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles. Satan would be unable to stop the Gospel advance to the (ethnos) Gentiles. The binding of the strong man does not suggest the devil cannot move or terrorize but that his range of movement is restricted. There are definite spiritual bounds to his activity. There are boundaries to his activity among the Gentiles which dictate where he is allowed to go and what he is allowed to do. There is a restraint upon him. There is someone over him determining the rules.

The binding of Satan is simply to do with the enlightenment of the nations. Many times the New Testament uses broad sweeping statements about the salvation of the Gentiles. This in Rev 20 is just another parallel teaching. It is written throughout the New Testament. Satan has lost his wholesale deception of the Gentile nations. Revelation 20 is one of many general sweeping unqualified statements pertaining to the lifting of the deception on the Gentile nations. This started 2000 years ago. The first resurrection enabled the enlightenment of the nations.

sovereigngrace · Apr 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Here's another one to add to your list. No one can deny that this is meaning after the cross and after the ascension, when satan is supposed to be in the the pit according to most Amils. I wonder if any of those locusts in Revelation 9 are bothering people on earth as well while they are in the pit, since they are suppose to be in the same pit during the same time most Amils claim satan is in the pit? If satan can be in the pit and at the same time hinder these, the same should be true of the locusts in the pit. Yet no one would likely claim these locusts are bothering anyone on earth while in the pit, so why is anyone claiming that satan is bothering people on earth while in the pit? I guess I forgot, satan is on a leash like a dog while he is in the pit, that that explains it.

Regardless what one thinks of Premil, are Premils really better off abandoning that view altogether, then fully embracing views such as SG holds instead? I don't think so. Premil has it's share of problems, I admit. But one is to then believe views such as SG holds, don't?

I think you are misunderstanding what the chain and pit are. A spiritual being cannot be held by metal chains or physical prison doors. That picture is meant to depict the curtailment of this spiritual entity called Satan. It is all symbolism representing spiritual realities. Satan's curtailment means enlightenment to the nations.

sovereigngrace · Apr 7, 2020

claninja said:
No you haven't. You just continue to generically state that that my position of what Amil means is opposite of the Amil quotes I provided, which makes no sense.

My positional on Amil is the exact same as the following 5 quotes.

1.) A MOD from another forum defines the Amil position as symbolic for starting at Christ's ascension and ending with the return of Christ:

Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

"One particular problem is the use of term amillennialism. Amillennialism means no millennial period set between two specific events in history matching 1000 years. In the amillennial view, the 1000 years is symbolic and starts at the Ascension of Christ and ends with the physical return of Christ at the Second coming. "

2.) The Millennial Kingdom by John Walvoord in regards to Amillinnialsim:

"The present age is between the first and second comings is the fulfillment of the millennium. Its adherents are divided on whether the millennium is being fulfilled now on earth (Augustine) or whether it is being fulfilled by the saints in heaven (Kliefoth)".

3.) From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner quoting from J.G. Vos:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

4.) Even theopedia defines it the same way:

Amillennialism (Greek: a- "no" + millennialism) is the view in Christian eschatology which states that Christ is presently reigning through the Church, and that the "1000 years" of Revelation 20:1-6 is a metaphorical reference to the present church age which will culminate in Christ's return"

5.) Anthony Hoekema
"Amillennialists interpret the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 describing the present reign of the souls of the deceased believers with Christ in heaven. They understand the binding of satan mentioned in the first three verses of this chapter as being in effecting DURING THE ENTIRE PERIOD BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND COMINGS OF CHRIST."

More generic statements that don't actually address anything I posted, with more blatantly untrue statements that I misrepresent Amil. All of the quotes I provided support the traditional view of Amil.

Anthony Hoekema, an Amil, agrees with the traditional view that has the binding of Satan during the "entire period" between the 1st and 2nd comings.

"Amillennialists interpret the millennium mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6 describing the present reign of the souls of the deceased believers with Christ in heaven. They understand the binding of satan mentioned in the first three verses of this chapter as being in effecting DURING THE ENTIRE PERIOD BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND COMINGS OF CHRIST."

Still waiting for you to provide evidence that Amil means anything else then what I have stated with supporting quotations.

The irony just continues. I'm misrepresenting other people's views?

From the Handbook of Evangelical Theology by Robert Lightner QUOTING FROM J.G. VOS:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

We can clearly see that J.G. Vos believes the millennium continues until the 2nd coming from the above quote.

Now, the quote your provided doesn't even state that satans little season occurs "after" the millennium. It states that at the "end" of this long period of time satan will have a little season.

Thus, J.G. Vos' position is consistent with what Amil teaches. The millennium is symbolic for the time between the ascension and the 2nd coming. At the end, not after this millennium, satan has a little season. This is consistent with the Amil diagram posted by CG in post 395.

Please don't misrepresent J.G. Vos.

Sadly, you are now trying to distort Anthony Hoekema's opinion of Revelation: 20, who is a classic Amil, and believes exactly how the rest of us Amils do. Let us look at the facts:

The Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

"The dragon, here clearly identified as 'the devil, Or Satan', is said to be bound for a thousand years and then cast into a place called 'the Abyss'. The purpose of this binding is 'to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended'.

The book of Revelation is full of symbolic numbers. It would seem rather likely, therefore, that the number “thousand” which is used in this passage ought not to be interpreted in a strictly literal sense. Since the number ten signifies completeness, and since a thousand is ten to the third power, we may think of the expression 'a thousand years' as standing for a complete period, a very long period of indeterminate length. In agreement with what was said above about the structure of the book, and in the light of verses 7-15 of this chapter (which describe Satan’s 'little season', the final battle, and the final judgment), we may conclude that this thousand-year period extends from Christ’s first coming to just before his Second Coming."

sovereigngrace · Apr 7, 2020

DavidPT said:
1 Thessalonians 2:18 Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.

Here's another one to add to your list. No one can deny that this is meaning after the cross and after the ascension, when satan is supposed to be in the the pit according to most Amils. I wonder if any of those locusts in Revelation 9 are bothering people on earth as well while they are in the pit, since they are suppose to be in the same pit during the same time most Amils claim satan is in the pit? If satan can be in the pit and at the same time hinder these, the same should be true of the locusts in the pit. Yet no one would likely claim these locusts are bothering anyone on earth while in the pit, so why is anyone claiming that satan is bothering people on earth while in the pit? I guess I forgot, satan is on a leash like a dog while he is in the pit, that that explains it.

Regardless what one thinks of Premil, are Premils really better off abandoning that view altogether, then fully embracing views such as SG holds instead? I don't think so. Premil has it's share of problems, I admit. But one is to then believe views such as SG holds, don't?

Is a Prison Governor devoid of authority and power just because he has a prison full of inmates that hate him, reject his position and dislike his discipline? I don't think so! There may even be gangs inside the penitentiary that continue to perpetrate their wickedness and rebellion, but they do it within very definite boundaries and are severely restricted.

We all know there are many crimes committed within the confines of a prison. Murders, rapes, drug abuse are all common within the prisons of this world. That doesn’t dilute the fact that the prisoner still remains imprisoned. In the case of Satan's prison, he too commits many crimes within his prison walls, but that does not negate the fact he is under 24 hr surveillance and is under definite and continual restraint since the cross. The chains are more effective than earthly metal ones, they are spiritual chains designed to slow him down and restrict his movement. The spiritual chains of the wicked clearly don't stop them operating within their dark prison-cell.

Yes, prisoners can roam about, but it is relative freedom. It is limited.

They are restricted in their movement, timing and influence and limited in the evil they can do. That is the way the kingdom of darkness is today. Satan is spiritually limited in the evil he can do.

Satan and his demons operate within that prison since the cross, and cannot step outside of its perimeters until just before Christ's Coming when that demonic restraint is taken off by divine decree.

A prisoner will continue to do whatever evil he can get away with, including rape, murder and embezzlement behind bars.

Christian Gedge · Apr 7, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
We ARE kings now, we do reign now "in life." However, when Christ comes we enter into the glory and full realization of eternal kingly position.

As ambassadors of another nation (a more powerful heavenly nation), we have been given authority over the devices of enemy. We can defeat in our lives and through the spread of the Gospel. Revelation 12:11 says, “And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

Satan is curtailed when the Church operates in and under the anointing and authority of the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ’s life, death and resurrection have opened the door and bust the devil aside. The overcoming Church now sits in heavenly places with Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:37-39, declares, “we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is bound!!!

Hallelujah! Amen! :clap:

claninja · Apr 8, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Do you ever say "sorry" when you are wrong? You are blatantly misrepresenting J.G. Vos and misleading the reader!

Studies in the Book of Revelation -LESSON 81

"Now going on from that, the nature of the restraint of Satan: “and cast him into the bottomless pit and shut him up and put a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

And what is spoken of here is not all the activities of Satan, or Satan’s evil deeds in general, but his particular major theme here of deceiving the nations. This is what he is restrained from doing, by this bottomless pit, and this seal and this key and this lock; deceiving the nations no more during a period of time. And what this deceiving of nations means is shown by what he does when he’s released for a little season and if you read further on in to verses 7 and 8 of chapter 20, after the thousand years expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And this goes on to describe an all-out attack on Christianity such as there has not been before. An all-out attack, he marshalls every thing at his disposal to attack Christianity and the true church and the true saints of God. Now that’s what he does when he’s released. Therefore that’s what he’s prevented from doing while he’s restrained...

So we take it the restraint of Satan prevents him from hypnotizing the nations of the world and brainwashing them into an all out attack on Christianity. This has given the church a long period, much more than a thousand years, of opportunity for evangelism and Christian education and missionary work and witnessing, which has been more successful than lots of people think. And this continues to this day. However there are signs today of a change on the horizon, and not to be dogmatic and make absolute pronouncements, but it is possible that we are on the verge of Satan’s “little season;” unbelief is growing bold, doors are being shut, people in high places are opposing Christianity, secularism and atheism are strong and powerful, as they have not been before, and so it may be we are on the verge of Satan being released and the all out attack that is described here...

Now I take it there has indeed been a long period during which Satan has been restrained from this kind of thing. This is with regard to the scene on earth. You may have to take the souls reigning with Christ in heaven next Sabbath; I’d rather do this right than hasten through it. But the length of this period is dated by some people who hold the amillennial understanding of prophecy to be from the resurrection of Christ almost to the time of his second coming, to a terminal point unspecifiable but not very long before the end of things ... And from then on there has not been this kind of all-out attack on Christianity and this would be the millennium in which we are still living. Now we are in it today but perhaps are approaching the time of the release of Satan.

Studies in the Book of Revelation -LESSON 82

"The binding of Satan is restraint that he should deceive the nations no more and be cast into the bottomless pit, and so on; we noted that this is figurative language that deals with a powerful restraint placed upon Satan by God. And it does not speak of his being restrained from activity of whatever kind, but from deceiving the nations. This is further confirmed by the fact that when he is released from his prison, he goes out to deceive the nations. That’s the beginning of verse 8. Now this is the scene on this earth. Of course there are various interpretations of this, but to present the most acceptable and plausible interpretation, this covers a long period of time on this earth during which Satan is unable to marshall and work up an all-out attack against Christianity. World wide persecution unto death there has not been; Satan has been restrained and the door to evangelism, and missionary work and Christian witness by and large has been kept open. And this is because the power of Satan has been put under a restraint. It’s spoken of him here as him being bound a thousand years. Now it says after the thousand years he must be loosed a little season, and we shall take that up further in a little bit.

This was the scene however on this earth, and I noted that there are signs; you have to be very careful in attempting to identify the fulfillment of prophecy. It’s one thing to say what is the meaning of it, another thing to nail down the fulfillment, but there seem to be signs in some parts of the world that Satan’s little season is about to open up. The closing of doors to the gospel, the increase of great wickedness suggests this...

The scene on earth, a long period of evangelistic missionary opportunity and opportunity for growth and expansion and witness and activity for the church, to be followed by a little season of persecution."

Now that's what I'm talking about SG, providing evidence for you position on how Amil is defined. The following quote that you provided is exactly what I was looking for:

"But the length of this period is dated by some people who hold the amillennial understanding of prophecy to be from the resurrection of Christ almost to the time of his second coming, to a terminal point unspecifiable but not very long before the end of things …"

Now, that quote of J. G. Vos that you provided does appear to contradict Robert Lightner's quote of J.G. Vos, which has the millennium running until the 2nd coming:

"Amillennialism teaches that there will be a parallel and contemporaneous development of good and evil-God's kingdom and satan's kingdom-in this world, which will continue until the second coming."

The only issue I seem to be having is that I can't seem find these writings (studies in the book of revelation lesson 81 and 82) by J.G. Vos. What volume of work are these located in?

Vos, Geerhardus (1886). The Mosaic Origin of the Pentateuchal Codes. New York: A. C. Armstrong & Son. OCLC 3144180. [6]
——— (1894). The Idea of Biblical Theology as a Science and as a Theological Discipline: The Inauguration Of Rev. Geerhardus Vos, Ph.D., D.D., as Professor Of Biblical Theology. New York: A. D. F. Randolph. OCLC 8838483.
——— (1903). The Teaching of Jesus Concerning the Kingdom of God and the Church. New York: American Tract Society. OCLC 3919537.
——— (1922). Grace and Glory: sermons preached in the chapel of Princeton Theological Seminary. Grand Rapids, MI: Reformed Press. OCLC 4995486.
——— (1926). The Self-Disclosure of Jesus: The Modern Debate about the Messianic Consciousness. New York: George H. Doran Co. OCLC 2430774.
——— (1930). The Pauline Eschatology. Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House. OCLC 697175240.
——— (1931). Charis, English Verses. Princeton, NJ: Princeton Theological Seminary.[7]
——— (1933). Western Rhymes. Princeton, NJ: Princeton Theological Seminary.[8]
——— (1934). Biblical Theology: Old and New Testaments. Philadelphia, PA: Theological Seminary of the Reformed Episcopal Church. OCLC 66323285.
——— (1944). The Teaching of the Epistle to the Hebrews. Philadelphia, PA: Theological Seminary of the Reformed Episcopal Church. OCLC 5971869.

Published posthumously

——— (2001). The Eschatology of the Old Testament Phillipsburg, NJ. P&R Publishing. ISBN 9780875521817. OCLC 45888861.
——— (1980). Redemptive History and Biblical Interpretation: The Shorter Writings of Geerhardus Vos. Phillipsburg, NJ: P&R Publishing. ISBN 9780875522708. OCLC 6968978.
——— (2013). The Collected Reviews of Geerhardus Vos. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
——— (2013). The Collected Articles of Geerhardus Vos. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
——— (2013). The Collected Dictionary Articles of Geerhardus Vos. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
——— (2013). Reformed Dogmatics: Volume 1 - Theology Proper. Translated by Gaffin, Richard B. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
——— (2014). Reformed Dogmatics: Volume 2 - Anthropology. Translated by Gaffin, Richard B. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
——— (2015). Reformed Dogmatics: Volume 3 - Christology. Translated by Gaffin, Richard B. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
——— (2015). Reformed Dogmatics: Volume 4 - Soteriology. Translated by Gaffin, Richard B. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.
——— (2016). Reformed Dogmatics: Volume 5 - Ecclesiology, the Means of Grace, Eschatology. Translated by Gaffin, Richard B. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

Journal articles[edit]

——— (1902). "The Scriptural Doctrine of the Love of God". The Presbyterian and Reformed Review. 13: 1–37.[9]
——— (1928). "Jeremiah's Plaint and its Answer". The Princeton Theological Review. 26: 48l-495.[10]

claninja · Apr 8, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Sadly, you are now trying to distort Anthony Hoekema's opinion of Revelation: 20, who is a classic Amil, and believes exactly how the rest of us Amils do. Let us look at the facts:

The Interpretation of the Book of Revelation

"The dragon, here clearly identified as 'the devil, Or Satan', is said to be bound for a thousand years and then cast into a place called 'the Abyss'. The purpose of this binding is 'to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended'.

The book of Revelation is full of symbolic numbers. It would seem rather likely, therefore, that the number “thousand” which is used in this passage ought not to be interpreted in a strictly literal sense. Since the number ten signifies completeness, and since a thousand is ten to the third power, we may think of the expression 'a thousand years' as standing for a complete period, a very long period of indeterminate length. In agreement with what was said above about the structure of the book, and in the light of verses 7-15 of this chapter (which describe Satan’s 'little season', the final battle, and the final judgment), we may conclude that this thousand-year period extends from Christ’s first coming to just before his Second Coming."

Interesting, so in one sense, Anthony Hoekema holds the 1,000 years of satan's binding to occur from the ascension until "just before" the 2nd coming, but in another instance he holds the 1,000 year period of the saints reigning as occurring during the "entire gospel era, from the 1st TO THE SECOND COMING".

" We therefore understand the word ezsan (lived, or came to life) in verse 4 as describing the fact that the souls of believers who have died are now living with Christ in heaven and sharing in his reign during the intermediate state between death and the resurrection. The thousand-year period during which these souls live and reign with Christ is, as we saw, the entire gospel era, from the first coming of Christ to the Second Coming." (millennium of revelation 20. 459)

sovereigngrace · Apr 8, 2020

claninja said:
Interesting, so in one sense, Anthony Hoekema holds the 1,000 years of satan's binding to occur from the ascension until "just before" the 2nd coming, but in another instance he holds the 1,000 year period of the saints reigning as occurring during the "entire gospel era, from the 1st TO THE SECOND COMING".

" We therefore understand the word ezsan (lived, or came to life) in verse 4 as describing the fact that the souls of believers who have died are now living with Christ in heaven and sharing in his reign during the intermediate state between death and the resurrection. The thousand-year period during which these souls live and reign with Christ is, as we saw, the entire gospel era, from the first coming of Christ to the Second Coming." (millennium of revelation 20. 459)

The typical view of Amils is that the time on earth involves a long period of binding (a thousand years), and a short period of loosing (Satan's little season) before the second coming. The description in heaven is just showing us what is happing in heaven while Satan is curtailed on earth. But the heavenly reign is unaffected by Satan's little season.

DavidPT · Apr 8, 2020

claninja said:
The thousand-year period during which these souls live and reign with Christ is, as we saw, the entire gospel era, from the first coming of Christ to the Second Coming." (millennium of revelation 20. 459)

I don't see it making sense, that if the text is plainly indicating that the thousand years have a beginning and an ending point, and that the martyrs reign with Christ a thousand years, but when the thousand years are expired, the martyrs are still reigning a thousand years. For example, let's assume the thousand years occur in this age from 40 AD to 2040 AD, then after 2040 AD it is satan's little season. In this scenario how could the martyrs still be reigning from 40 AD to 2040 AD after 2040 AD? The text does not say the martyrs reign for a thousand years and little season, it says they reign for a thousand years.

Per Premil this can be explained like such. During the thousand years the saints are reigning with Christ ruling over the nations with a rod of iron. When the thousand years are expired the ruling the nations with a rod of iron is done away with in order to test those of the nations once satan is released. Even if one doesn't care to agree with that, at least Premil appears to have an answer for why the reigning with Christ is a thousand years, while Amil appears to have no answer at all, therefore Amils have to claim the martyrs reign with Christ a thousand years and a little season even though the text indicates no such thing.

Plus, if the reigning with Christ a thousand years is meaning in heaven like some Amils claim, that is a total disconnect from the texts involved, because clearly, when satan is loosed he goes out to deceive the nations in the earth, and that they surround the saints on earth and not the saints in heaven.

DavidPT · Apr 8, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The heavenly reign is unaffected by Satan's little season.

Yet the text does not say a single person reigns with Christ a thousand years and a little season. You're being intellectually dishonest if you insist otherwise.

sovereigngrace · Apr 8, 2020

DavidPT said:
Yet the text does not say a single person reigns with Christ a thousand years and a little season. You're being intellectually dishonest if you insist otherwise.

The description in heaven is just showing us what is happing in heaven while Satan is curtailed on earth. But the heavenly reign is unaffected by Satan's little season.

claninja · Apr 8, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I have explained but you totally ignore the Amil explanation. The binding relates exclusively to the lifting of the deception on the Gentiles (ethnos). The restraint is therefore solely spiritual. Anyway, the restraint is simply to do with the deception of the nations. Satan can no longer deceive the nations as he once did. It solely relates to the enlightenment of the Gentiles. Satan would be unable to stop the Gospel advance to the (ethnos) Gentiles. The binding of the strong man does not suggest the devil cannot move or terrorize but that his range of movement is restricted. There are definite spiritual bounds to his activity. There are boundaries to his activity among the Gentiles which dictate where he is allowed to go and what he is allowed to do. There is a restraint upon him. There is someone over him determining the rules.

The binding of Satan is simply to do with the enlightenment of the nations. Many times the New Testament uses broad sweeping statements about the salvation of the Gentiles. This in Rev 20 is just another parallel teaching. It is written throughout the New Testament. Satan has lost his wholesale deception of the Gentile nations. Revelation 20 is one of many general sweeping unqualified statements pertaining to the lifting of the deception on the Gentile nations. This started 2000 years ago. The first resurrection enabled the enlightenment of the nations.

I agree with all of this, and Amen that God has done this.

The gentiles were receiving the gospel in the 1st century as testified in the book of Acts:

Acts 15:12-14 The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own

The gentile were praising God, as it was written, post the cross.
Romans 15:8-9 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”

And the gospel continues to spread and the church continues to conquer to this day.

But this does not answer, how satan was able to blind the minds of unbelievers in order that the would not see the light of the gospel after the cross.

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

How were the unbelieving Jews able to deceive the gentiles into persecuting the church, if the nations could not be deceived after the cross?

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them

sovereigngrace · Apr 8, 2020

claninja said:
I agree with all of this, and Amen that God has done this.

The gentiles were receiving the gospel in the 1st century as testified in the book of Acts:

Acts 15:12-14 The whole assembly fell silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul describing the signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own

The gentile were praising God, as it was written, post the cross.
Romans 15:8-9 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”

And the gospel continues to spread and the church continues to conquer to this day.

But this does not answer, how satan was able to blind the minds of unbelievers in order that the would not see the light of the gospel after the cross.

2 Corinthians 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

How were the unbelieving Jews able to deceive the gentiles into persecuting the church, if the nations could not be deceived after the cross?

Acts 14:2-5 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. So they remained for a long time, speaking boldly for the Lord, who bore witness to the word of his grace, granting signs and wonders to be done by their hands. But the people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews and some with the apostles. When an attempt was made by both Gentiles and Jews, with their rulers, to mistreat them and to stone them

We are looking at generalities! Before the cross the Gentiles were considered blind, ignorant, in bondage and living in darkness, deceived by the father of lies. Satan had them hoodwinked. He ruled the nations. He had them under his control. After the resurrection, the Gentiles were no longer deceived as the Gospel light shone throughout the nations. The veil of ignorance was lifted. They are now without excuse.

You seem to miss what Revelation 20 is talking about and overlook the seismic change in regard to the Gospel opportunity that exists today (in comparison to before the cross) in regard to the nations access to truth.

This truth is highlighted in Matthew 4:8-9 where “the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.”

During the temptations of Christ in the desert, Satan offers Jesus the world if He would only bow down before him. Satan was well within his rights to make such an offer since Adam handed over world dominion to him when he allowed himself to be subject to Satan's will.

The parallel passage in Luke 4:5-7 says: “And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.”

Manifestly, through Adam’s sin, Satan was able to present a legitimate temptation to Christ. The fact the devil had the capability to tempt the Lord with this enticement proves he enjoyed authority over the nations that had to be broken. Ultimately, God permitted Satan to have this authority. But it was Adam that relinquished this rule over the earth in the Fall. After all, this was a definite and a real legitimate temptation. The devil had huge power over this world.

God controlled one single nation. Satan controlled the nations plural.

Acts 14:16 confirms that God “in times past suffered all nations (ethnos) to walk in their own ways.”

Acts 17:30 says, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.”

Ephesians 2:11-13 confirms this, saying, “ye being in time past Gentiles (ethnos) in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.”

Did that mean that all Gentiles were wholesale lost or deceived? No! Many Gentiles found Christ in the OT. It was a general observation at the prevailing spiritual condition of the mass of the people. That is all Rev 20 is saying.

The Scriptures often depict the Gentiles in the Old Testament as deceived, without hope, blinded, ignorant and darkened. The Bible repeatedly describes the Gentiles in the New Testament as enlightened. That does not suggest that all were blind in the Old Testament or that all will be enlightened in the New Testament. These are simply sweeping generalities establishing the Gospel climate in either era. The widespread light didn’t shine on the nations throughout the Old Testament. Today, it does exist as the Gospel is preached throughout the nations. Before the cross, the Gospel was largely withheld from the nations. After the cross, the Gospel spread like wildfire throughout the globe. Like Israel in the Old Testament, the Gentiles in the New Testament have now had the light shone on them through the great commission.

Imprisonment, blindness, darkness, hopelessness and ignorance are always tied together in Scripture.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Zacharias the father of John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in Luke 1:78-80 and prophesied: “Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”

Simeon acknowledged in Luke 2:30-32 says: “For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel."

Prior to Christ’s earthly ministry believers knew that the Gospel was going to go the Gentiles.

The general broad deception that engulfed the Gentiles in ignorance and darkness is lifted. They now can receive if they believe. That does not suggest the majority will. Acts 13:46-48 says, “Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, it was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you [the Jews]: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the ethnos (or) Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the ethnos (or) Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the ethnos (or) Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.”

From Acts 10 (and the incident at Cornelius’ house) the Gospel was released unto the darkened Gentiles in a significant manner. They would now be brought from darkness of heathenism unto the light of Christ and His Gospel. The unequivocal words from Paul and Barnabas above confirm that the tide had markedly turned and that the Gospel had opened up to the blinded Gentiles in a very definite way. With the rare exception of the city of Nineveh, the Gospel was previously restricted to the small individual “nation” of natural Israel before the Cross. The nations were totally engulfed with a blanket of darkness which was now being removed. The enforcement of Satan’s defeat at the Cross would now be realized by the people of God through the faithful preaching of the Word of God. The devil would be spiritually bound as the kingdom of God advanced with the Gospel. This spiritual binding ensures he is unable to defeat the work of the Church of Jesus Christ evangelizing the nations. It was only after Calvary that the good news of salvation was widened out to embrace the heathen “nations” of the world.

For example, Romans 9:30 attests: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.”

Many times the New Testament uses broad sweeping statements about the salvation of the Gentiles. This in Rev 20 is just another parallel teaching. It is written throughout the New Testament. Satan has lost his wholesale deception of the Gentile nations. Revelation 20 is one of many general sweeping unqualified statements pertaining to the lifting of the deception on the Gentile nations. This started 2000 years ago. The first resurrection enabled the enlightenment of the nations.

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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