UNDER THE LAW!

HARK! said:

The Ruach Ha'kodesh led me away from those guys who said that it was OK to break what was written in stone, and worship on SUNday.

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According to your belief, if a person has no consciousness of sin by not keeping a specific Saturday sabbath they could not be born again, but you seem unable to understand this. Why has this not been revealed to you? And if you are led of God why is your law an external law? For the new covenant believer it is not. I say that because you had to read law written in ink to know which law you believed you should folllow
BTW
You spend most of your time chatting with those who worship on Sunday, are you being rebellious?
Those who follow after the Spirit worship God seven days a week, one day is not so good.

HARK! said:

The Ruach Ha'kodesh led me away from those guys who said that it was OK to break what was written in stone, and worship on SUNday.

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Your problem can be summed up in one verse:
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:6

You follow after the written code. You serve in the old way, not the new way. Only the Holy Spirit can lead believers into spiritual truth. So it does not matter how many long posts you write concerning your beliefs on law, as you have chosen to follow after the letter, not the Holy Spirit you will fail to properly understand the message. For you are only left with your natural mind to learn, and the natural mind is not the way to learn spiritual truth.

HARK! said:

Yet most won't even pay heed to what was written in stone.

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To whom was it given?
And why would anyone want to embrace the transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now? (2 Corinthians 3:6-11) The letter kills.

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

HARK! said:

The Ruach Ha'kodesh led me away from those guys who said that it was OK to break what was written in stone, and worship on SUNday.

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That's lame.
Are you claiming that the NAME of the day of the week determines which deity is being worshiped? What day of the week do you worship? SATURNday, perhaps? Every day of the week is named after an astronomical entity. All seven.

not under law said:

BTW
How did you become convinced you must keep a specific Saturday sabbath, because that was in your heart and mind, or because you read law written in ink that had been engraved in stone? If the latter, it was not written in your heart was it

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If worship on any day other than SATURNday was a sin, then it would bother our conscience. It doesn't. -- Although someone may be brought under a false condemnation by believing false teaching.

Dkh587 said:

Knowledge of sin comes through reading the law. You have to read the law to know what sin is.

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This is my definition of the term "God's law". (even though the term does not appear)
The law on human conscience (the heart) since the Fall. Ironically, it came with the knowledge of good and evil. Received, not through the written law, but through the act of disobedient sin. And with it also came the condemning voice of the enemy in our minds.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Saint Steven said:

To whom was it given?
And why would anyone want to embrace the transitory ministry of condemnation and death that has no glory now? (2 Corinthians 3:6-11)

2 Corinthians 3:6-11
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

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Amen! He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry that condemns. The law on our heart and mind is the love of the Spirit, not the letter of the law of Moses.

Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel under the old covenant (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the new covenant. (Colossians 2:16-17)

Even when SDA's set out to keep the sabbath, are they truly "keeping the sabbath?" To "keep the sabbath" as it was required under the old covenant involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

If sabbath day observances are still required, then so would the burnt offerings which went along with them (Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3; Numbers 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13). So no kindling a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath (Exodus 35:3). Every man must remain in his place on the sabbath (Exodus 16:29). No trading (Amos 8:5). No marketing (Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15,19).

These were commanded by God to Israel (Exodus 35:1). If the seventh day sabbath is still in affect, then why don't SDA's seek to obey ALL that the LORD commanded? How can they keep a certain law when they only keep part of it?

If the sabbath day laws were still in effect today, then according to (Exodus 31:12-18; 35:1-3; and Numbers 15:32-36), anyone who profaned the Sabbath was put to death and any person who does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from his people. Is the SDA church going to enforce that? What about the Jewish synagogue or the Government? Since we do not live under a theocratic state as ancient Israel did under the old covenant, no SDA can live consistently under these Mosaic regulations.

The sabbath rest (sabbatismos) that remains for the people of God (Hebrews 4:9) is the perpetual rest that is to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with Jesus Christ, in contrast to the weekly sabbath under the law. The SDA gospel, which makes keeping the weekly sabbath day mandatory for the Church, along with keeping the 10 commandments (with a heavy emphasis on the 4th commandment) mandatory for salvation, culminates in "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works" which is a perversion of the gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Dkh587 said:

Reading the law is how you learn what sin is.

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I had a human conscience before I could read. Did you get yours yet?

Danthemailman said:

Even when SDA's set out to keep the sabbath, are they truly "keeping the sabbath?" To "keep the sabbath" as it was required under the old covenant involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

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That's a great question.
Are those who claim to be keeping the Sabbath in fact doing so? Law is law. Half law is not whole law.

Furthermore, Sabbath observance isn't really intended to be an individual decision. It is a community decision. The whole town needs to be shut down. Even the visiting foreigners within their gates are required to comply.

Deuteronomy 5:12-15
“Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

Saint Steven said:

That's a great question.
Are those who claim to be keeping the Sabbath in fact doing so? Law is law. Half law is not whole law.

Furthermore, Sabbath observance isn't really intended to be an individual decision. It is a community decision. The whole town needs to be shut down. Even the visiting foreigners within their gates are required to comply.

Deuteronomy 5:12-15
“Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

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I also like to ask: where is the wife in Deuteronomy 5:12-15 ???
To debunk the claim of a rest in only OCCUPATIONAL work.

HARK! said:

the law is the schoolmaster that leads you to Messiah

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Nope. Not now.

Galatians 3:23-25
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Saint Steven said:

This is my definition of the term "God's law". (even though the term does not appear)
The law on human conscience (the heart) since the Fall. Ironically, it came with the knowledge of good and evil. Received, not through the written law, but through the act of disobedient sin. And with it also came the condemning voice of the enemy in our minds.

Romans 2:14-15
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

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This answers my own question about the difference between "the law", "God’s law" and "Christ’s law" by the Apostle in this text below.
- "the law", is NOT "God’s law" or "Christ’s law"
- "God’s law" is NOT "the law" or "Christ’s law"
- "Christ’s law" is NOT "the law" or "God’s law"
All different.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Saint Steven said:

This answers my own question about the difference between "the law", "God’s law" and "Christ’s law" by the Apostle in this text below.
- "the law", is NOT "God’s law" or "Christ’s law"
- "God’s law" is NOT "the law" or "Christ’s law"
- "Christ’s law" is NOT "the law" or "God’s law"
All different.

1 Corinthians 9:20-22
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

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By extension this explains the appearance of the term "God's law" in these texts. Not a reference to either "the law" or "Christ's law".

Romans 7:22
For in my inner being I delight in God’s law;

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,
I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8:7
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

HARK! said:

How do you know what I believe, unless I tell you. Can you be born again in ignorance of YHWH's law? If the law is the schoolmaster that leads you to Messiah; and Messiah is the only way to the Father, and you pay no heed to the Father's law; then how do you come to the Father? You tell me. That's not my call. That's between you and the Father.



Understand what?



What has not been revealed to me?



First of all, it's not my law. I take objection to that statement. Maybe that's the difference between you and me; not my will, his will be done. Out of the love of YHWH, I ask him for the strength to do his will. I ask him to write his law on my heart. How can one say that YHWH's law is on his heart; when he shows no indication to have the heart to even submit to it on paper?



So without a schoolmaster; how did you come to know Messiah? Can you say that you know him without keeping his commandments. Before you answer, remember, his commandments are his Father's commandments.



Yahshua calls us to follow all of His father's words with all of our hearts. Again, without a schoolmaster, how can one come to Messiah? Is there another way? I don't pick and choose which laws I should follow. Yahshua calls us to follow him, as he follows them all.



I was called to share the the good news with everyone. Who told you that was rebellion? Was that written on your heart?



Those who follow the Ruach Ha'Kodesh are called to worship incessantly, and to keep YHWH's appointments on his time.

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What don't you understand and what has not been revealed to you. I have explained this to you so many times
Sin is the transgression of the law
Through the law we become conscious of sin.
If you are right that following a specific Saturday sabbath is written in the mind and placed on the heart of the believer no one could be a Christian unless they were conscious they sinned by failing to follow it. As you accept people as Christians who have no consciousness of sin by failing to observe a set Saturday sabbath you obviously cannot understand this and it has not been revealed to you
You don't ask God to write his law in your heart, he does it through the Spirit of the living God.
Your calling to share the good news as you put it, consists of ignoring and seeking to overturn very plain statements in the new testament for they do not fit in with your doctrines. For those statements come from those being led of the Holy Spirit into truth, you follow after the written code, the two are not compatible
Without a school master how did I come to know Messiah? What are you saying here? That before I can know Jesus I have to firstly read the law handed down at Sanai? Then I will be drawn to him? That verse refers to those who firstly had the written law.

HARK! said:

That's good; so long as what is written on our hearts matches what YHWH wrote in stone.

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You follow after the written code, and therefore cannot understand the spiritual reality(rom7:6)

God told Moses the Israelites were a stiff-necked heathen people who would soon desert him once they reached the promised land. Such people, would naturally be told to set aside a day each week to contemplate on and meditate on God and his goodness to them. Under the new covenant our hearts have been softened, the Holy Spirit dwells in us, as does Christ through him. You cannot ignore meditation of him who dwells in you, and you will be grateful and thankful seven days a week to God for what he has done for you through Christ. The spiritual intent of the fourth commandment is upheld in born again believers seven days a week. For those who follow after the written code this is completely unacceptable, for those who follow after the Holy Spirit it is not. Paul followed after the Holy Spirit:
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind Rom 14:5
I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean verse14
Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a person to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. verse20

Of course, for those who follow after the written code, the above must be explained away, the verses cannot mean what they plainly state, scripture must be brought into contradiction with scripture to defend errant beliefs.
And if Torah must be followed by all believers, Christ's disciples, the leaders of the first century church undoubtedly gave gentile converts a licence to sin(Acts ch15), for God's laws are not arbitrary, you cannot pick and choose which ones you follow and which ones you do not. However, this will also be skilfully(or not so skilfully) explained away. The only thing that matters to some is their doctrine of following after the written code, not what is plainly written for new covenant believers in the NT

not under law said:

... Sin is the transgression of the law...

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I don't think that is true as a stand-alone statement.
The Sabbath commandment is part of the law. Are we under that law?
If we were under the law, then a Sabbath violation would be a sin. (a transgression of the law)

The statement cannot be qualified under grace.

Saint Steven said:

I don't think that is true as a stand-alone statement.
The Sabbath commandment is part of the law. Are we under that law?
If we were under the law, then a Sabbath violation would be a sin. (a transgression of the law)

The statement cannot be qualified under grace.

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In post 498, I wrote that the spiritual intent of the fourth commandment is upheld in born again believers seven days a week. Believers are not under the law, they are not under righteousness of obeying it.