Beware of Pre-Tribbers Doomsday Hype

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 6 itself shows a mid-"tribulation" rapture. After the first 5 seals, after the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse (in which 1/4 of the people of the earth die from war, famine, and disease), that's the first 4 seals, the 5th seal suddenly you have a bunch of souls asking the Lord to avenge them, because they were slain for being Christians.
It's the 6th Seal that has the skies darkening the blood moon, earthquakes and events described in Matthew 24.
Then the 7th seal happens and the wrath of God begins.
So by that timing, you have the tribulation (events caused by Men/the antichrist), rapture, then the seven trumps and seven vials (events caused by God's wrath). Which all lines up with us not being appointed to wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) but still agrees with Christ telling you the signs of His coming, and Revelation to describe what to watch and look for.
If pre-trib rapture was how it would be, we wouldn't be watching for any signs, because we'd just suddenly be caught up out of nowhere as pretrib rapture people seem to expect.

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Not out of nowhere. At the last trump on a specific fall feast day. I wish more of you understood details on the Galileeian wedding ceremony. Even without the timing details given in scripture, you'd all be expecting a rapture as well.

SeventyOne said:

Not out of nowhere. At the last trump on a specific fall feast day. I wish more of you understood details on the Galileeian wedding ceremony. Even without the timing details given in scripture, you'd all be expecting a rapture as well.

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The timing in scripture has the man caused components of tribulations, then the day of the Lord that Jesus describes in Matthew 24, then the wrath of God.

It's only when you're looking outside of revelation itself that anyone EVER comes up with different timing but between the Jesus' own words in the gospels and revelation, the timing seems very clear to me.
Look I would WANT a pre trib rapture, I would WANT to not go through the starvation and beheading if I lived to see those days.
But that's not what the bible says.

David Kent said:

He said there would no tribulation, such as that.

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"'For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.'" (Matthew 24:21)

But Jesus does say it will be "great". And Paul says, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God." (in Acts 14:22) And Jesus went through all His tribulation on Calvary and then He was resurrected.

And now I think of how if it is what has not been, and never will be . . . it can be what we have no knowledge of, from experience.

And if the "elect" will be gathered "immediately after the tribulation of those days", I think this means those "elect" will have been on this earth during that tribulation, and God will have taken care of them. And it seems they will go through stuff they have had not experience for dealing with . . . if it is so unlike any past tribulation.

So, how does one prepare for that, if one is going to be included in those "elect" Jesus is talking about . . . whoever they are? I understand we have people who claim "it won't be me". But, even so, how does one prepare for what one knows nothing about?

Jamdoc said:

Look I would WANT a pre trib rapture, I would WANT to not go through the starvation and beheading if I lived to see those days.
But that's not what the bible says.

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But there are scriptures people can interpret to mean pre-trib. But there are scriptures which can be used to mean post-trib.

But Jesus says His yoke is easy and His burden is light. And our Apostle Paul said his affliction was "light" > 2 Corinthians 4:17. So, I see how in God's almighty grace we can experience things better than we might now feel about things. How we are can effect how we are ready to understand God's word.

According to what I see in Revelation 7, there will be "servants" of God in the tribulation, plus that multitude which no one could number will come out of it. Now, if God's wrath judgments are tormenting and killing the evil people, how much will they be able to make trouble for God's people . . . unless perhaps at times God allows them to do certain things?? If, for one example, those stinging locusts are hunting and tormenting evil people, how much can they be making trouble for whoever is in the trib and serving God?

If a person is serving God, by the way, the person is not likely to be running scared and hiding. And it says ones will be "servants".

So, I can see at least one scenario > God takes care of those who serve Him; we seek Him first and He adds all we need. His wrath judgments can kill evil people, and those serving can use the food and other resources of dead people . . . no need to pay for them. Food will spoil if no one gleans it. Gleaning is scriptural. Whole fields can be abandoned, or even whole supermarkets and home refrigerators, because of people being killed or being chased away by stinging locusts or other means.

And if God does have His "servants" serving Him during the trib . . . do we want to help them or leave them on their own???? Paul would have loved to leave this life and all his tribulation he was suffering here, and be with Jesus >

"Nevertheless, to remain in the flesh is more needful for you." (Philippians 1:24)

And our Apostle Paul says that with God we can help anyone "in any trouble" > 2 Corinthians 1:14-15. Even if we don't know what a trouble will be, "any" covers it, I would say.

So, while we may be calling one another liars, and interpreting scripture to say what no actual Bible quote says . . . God's word is discerning us > Hebrews 4:12 > discerning "the thoughts and intents of" our hearts > God's word is discerning how we are, now, plus showing how we can become with Him who can handle anything with us.

SeventyOne said:

Not out of nowhere. At the last trump on a specific fall feast day. I wish more of you understood details on the Galileeian wedding ceremony. Even without the timing details given in scripture, you'd all be expecting a rapture as well.

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I agree. Seeing the real wedding ceremony and it's tradition... leads to a pre trib rapture view.

Jamdoc said:

The timing in scripture has the man caused components of tribulations, then the day of the Lord that Jesus describes in Matthew 24, then the wrath of God.

It's only when you're looking outside of revelation itself that anyone EVER comes up with different timing but between the Jesus' own words in the gospels and revelation, the timing seems very clear to me.
Look I would WANT a pre trib rapture, I would WANT to not go through the starvation and beheading if I lived to see those days.
But that's not what the bible says.

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Another thing people miss is when He came in what we call His First Coming, is that He actually came twice. One time to a great announcement to the people, such as His star and angels singing. The other time was after the resurrection after He forbade Martha from touching Him because He had not yet gone onto the Father, but then a short time later He told others to touch Him. That's an indicator that He left and came back again, but this time it was silent, with no announcement or fanfare. The Second Coming has the same type of appearance. The first will be silent, with no fanfare, the second will see the stars roll away, trumpets will blast, and all eyes will see Him.

Another thing people miss is the example He gives us in the three-stage harvest. We have the firstfruits, the main harvest, and then the gleanings. In the first two stages, God declares the grain gathered belongs to the owner of the field, but the last, the gleanings or the edges of the field, belong to the poor and outcast.

We've already seen the offering of the firstfruits. Paul describes this as the resurrection of Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:23. That verse also describes the main harvest at His next coming, where those who belong to God are taken (raptured). That's the first two stages where God, the owner of the field, gathers what belongs to Him.

Then in verses 24 and 25, Paul does this funny little thing and states concerning stage 3, the gleanings, that's the part which he states occurs at the end, at the time Jesus comes to end the rulers of this earth and begin to reign. So, when you are reading passages concerning the time when He comes in great power and setting up His Kingdom, you are reading about the 3rd stage of the harvest. The first two stages had already past.

JacksBratt said:

I agree. Seeing the real wedding ceremony and it's tradition... leads to a pre trib rapture view.

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Oddly enough, this popped up in my YouTube feed this morning. It concerns how Jesus related His coming rapture for His Bride to the Galileeian wedding custom.

SeventyOne said:

I'm not the one denying an aspect of His return. calling me a scoffer in this regard would be a false accusation.

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And I'm not denying any aspect of His return. I'm rejecting the false doctrine that Jesus has a secret return to snatch people into heaven, a doctrine never taught in Scripture, never taught by the Christian Church, and is completely foreign to Christianity. Yet, you apparently have no trouble accusing me of being scoffer because I don't embrace your false, unbiblical, and non-Christian belief.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

And I'm not denying any aspect of His return. I'm rejecting the false doctrine that Jesus has a secret return to snatch people into heaven, a doctrine never taught in Scripture, never taught by the Christian Church, and is completely foreign to Christianity. Yet, you apparently have no trouble accusing me of being scoffer because I don't embrace your false, unbiblical, and non-Christian belief.

-CryptoLutheran

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I didn't call you a scoffer. Peter did. His words, not mine.

Rapture is reality. You deny it. That's the bucket you placed yourself into.

SeventyOne said:

I didn't call you a scoffer. Peter did. His words, not mine.

Rapture is reality. You deny it. That's the bucket you placed yourself into.

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Tell you what, you find one place in the entire Bible that says that when Jesus returns He is going to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation.

That was the challenge given to me many years ago back when I unquestioningly believed in the rapture (because it is what I was taught my entire life growing up). And it was the challenge that resulted in me having to abandon that belief, and ultimately set me down the path to reading the Bible more seriously than I had before.

Again, just one place. Feel free to provide all the Scripture you want. But the challenge is that all you have to do is fine one place that actually says Jesus comes to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation. That's it. Just one.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Tell you what, you find one place in the entire Bible that says that when Jesus returns He is going to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation.

That was the challenge given to me many years ago back when I unquestioningly believed in the rapture (because it is what I was taught my entire life growing up). And it was the challenge that resulted in me having to abandon that belief, and ultimately set me down the path to reading the Bible more seriously than I had before.

Again, just one place. Feel free to provide all the Scripture you want. But the challenge is that all you have to do is fine one place that actually says Jesus comes to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation. That's it. Just one.

-CryptoLutheran

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The same can be said about the Trinity and yet that is now a core belief in the Christian Church....yet without the word ever being used in the Bible. We infer things in the Bible without explicit statements to support them.

ViaCrucis said:

Tell you what, you find one place in the entire Bible that says that when Jesus returns He is going to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation.

That was the challenge given to me many years ago back when I unquestioningly believed in the rapture (because it is what I was taught my entire life growing upHere are two). And it was the challenge that resulted in me having to abandon that belief, and ultimately set me down the path to reading the Bible more seriously than I had before.

Again, just one place. Feel free to provide all the Scripture you want. But the challenge is that all you have to do is fine one place that actually says Jesus comes to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation. That's it. Just one.

-CryptoLutheran

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Here are two.
John 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

ViaCrucis said:

Tell you what, you find one place in the entire Bible that says that when Jesus returns He is going to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation.

That was the challenge given to me many years ago back when I unquestioningly believed in the rapture (because it is what I was taught my entire life growing up). And it was the challenge that resulted in me having to abandon that belief, and ultimately set me down the path to reading the Bible more seriously than I had before.

Again, just one place. Feel free to provide all the Scripture you want. But the challenge is that all you have to do is fine one place that actually says Jesus comes to take Christians into heaven to escape tribulation. That's it. Just one.

-CryptoLutheran

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Isaiah 26:17-21, which also correlates with Revelation 12:1-5. Two witnesses to the same event.

I wonder if your first response would be to look into them a bit deeper or to find any excuse to immediately dismiss them.

civilwarbuff said:

The same can be said about the Trinity and yet that is now a core belief in the Christian Church....yet without the word ever being used in the Bible. We infer things in the Bible without explicit statements to support them.

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I'm not asking for the word "rapture" to be found in the Bible. I'm asking for the idea behind it to be found.

Scripture does say there is one God, and it further states that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and that these three are distinct. All of that can be seen in Scripture.

I'm simply asking for something, anything, that actually says what Rapturists say.

-CryptoLutheran

SeventyOne said:

Oddly enough, this popped up in my YouTube feed this morning. It concerns how Jesus related His coming rapture for His Bride to the Galileeian wedding custom.

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Looking forward to watching it later

SeventyOne said:

I didn't call you a scoffer. Peter did. His words, not mine.

Rapture is reality. You deny it. That's the bucket you placed yourself into.

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I agree

SeventyOne said:

Isaiah 26:17-21, which also correlates with Revelation 12:1-5. Two witnesses to the same event.

I wonder if your first response would be to look into them a bit deeper or to find any excuse to immediately dismiss them.

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Good post

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Here are two.
John 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Rev. 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

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Good post

SeventyOne said:

Isaiah 26:17-21, which also correlates with Revelation 12:1-5. Two witnesses to the same event.

I wonder if your first response would be to look into them a bit deeper or to find any excuse to immediately dismiss them.

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Feel free to explain how they in anyway relate to one another, and how they have any relevance about Jesus snatching Christians into heaven to escape tribulation.

Because, no, I don't see how Isaiah 26, about God's promise to defeat Israel's enemies (this coming directly after talking about judgment against Moab in ch. 25) having any relationship to the vision of the woman in Revelation 12. Nor do I see how either passage has anything to do with Jesus taking Christians out of the world to escape tribulation.

Now Isaiah 26 does point us forward to the hope of the resurrection of the dead, and thus here is given us the promises of God not just over the ancient enemies of Israel, but over death itself which has been fulfilled with Christ and also the future resurrection of the dead at His coming. Even as the Apostle says, that at the resurrection it can be said, "Where O Death is your sting? Where O Death is your victory?" For death is swallowed up in victory.

But by all means, I'm curious how you see Christians getting snatched into heaven to escape tribulation in these passages which don't mention this at all.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Feel free to explain how they in anyway relate to one another, and how they have any relevance about Jesus snatching Christians into heaven to escape tribulation.

Because, no, I don't see how Isaiah 26, about God's promise to defeat Israel's enemies (this coming directly after talking about judgment against Moab in ch. 25) having any relationship to the vision of the woman in Revelation 12. Nor do I see how either passage has anything to do with Jesus taking Christians out of the world to escape tribulation.

Now Isaiah 26 does point us forward to the hope of the resurrection of the dead, and thus here is given us the promises of God not just over the ancient enemies of Israel, but over death itself which has been fulfilled with Christ and also the future resurrection of the dead at His coming. Even as the Apostle says, that at the resurrection it can be said, "Where O Death is your sting? Where O Death is your victory?" For death is swallowed up in victory.

But by all means, I'm curious how you see Christians getting snatched into heaven to escape tribulation in these passages which don't mention this at all.

-CryptoLutheran

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You asked and I provided. I was genuinely curious if you would spend time really looking at these passages or not. I have my answer.