Looking back I guess I have been a little pushy. I worked for many years in construction as a superintendent and I guess the forcefulness needed for that job is still with me.
That's no excuse but fyi.
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What are the BIG things in the Bible we must accept as Christians? (Please no debating or criticism)
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Looking back I guess I have been a little pushy. I worked for many years in construction as a superintendent and I guess the forcefulness needed for that job is still with me.
That's no excuse but fyi.
Do you remember the verse I gave you earlier from Christ?
Matt. 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
This is what Paul has done, he has died to the law that he might be alive unto God.
He has given his life to God by faith.
But he who tries to keep any type law is trying to save his own life.
You can see how serious this is, Jesus is speaking of eternity here.
Matt. 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
This is what Paul has done, he has died to the law that he might be alive unto God.
He has given his life to God by faith.
But he who tries to keep any type law is trying to save his own life.
You can see how serious this is, Jesus is speaking of eternity here.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Well, I have already laid out my case to you in several posts already (That you have chosen to ignore or not reply to) that show beyond a shadow of a doubt that grievous sin which is not confessed or forsaken is not forgiven for a believer in Jesus Christ. Meaning, one cannot abide in unconfessed sin, and still be saved.
In fact, when you quote 1 John 2:1-2, you have to look at the context.
If you were to skip back to chapter 1 in John's 1st epistle, you would encounter 1 John 1:9. It says,
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).
Not sure if you caught what this verse is saying. It is saying that if you confess of your sins to Jesus (Which ties into 1 John 2:1-2), we will be forgiven of our sins, and cleansed of all unrighteousness. You want to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness even without confessing your sins. But that is not what 1 John 1:9 teaches. 1 John 1:9 essentially says we have to confess in order to be forgiven. This relates to our salvation because 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Last I checked, most Christians believe that the blood of Jesus Christ deals with our salvation. So if we are being cleansed by the blood by walking in the light, then we need to know what walkin in the light is (according to the Bible). 1 John 2:9-11 essentially says using other words that "walking in the light" is loving your brother. This is confirmed in the fact that 1 John 3:15 says that the person who does not love his brother (or does not righteousness) is not of God. You said a believer can sin and still be saved on some level before. That they do not lose salvation via by sinning. Does that sound like they are doing righteousness? No. Does that sound like they are loving their brother? No.
Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
So we need to confess and forsake sin in order to be forgiven or saved again or to maintain our salvation.
You said:
In my view: Chastisement only works for those who truly deep in their heart do not want to justify sin in on any level. Chastisement is not an effective deterrent for those who think they can sin and still be saved in this life. For we know that even unbelievers can suffer the same problems in life that believers can suffer. If one's salvation is never truly threatened, then the believer can continue freely to commit that sin until they die as they desire. They can serve two masters. They can serve God and their sin. But Jesus says we cannot serve two masters.
Do you believe a Christian can commit suicide and be saved?
If so, then it really does not matter how one lives.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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In the book of Romans and Galatians: When Paul uses the words like "Law" or "works" he is referring to the Law of Moses (the Old Law) (the 613 commands as a whole package deal or contract), and he is not referring to the commands that come from Jesus Christ and His followers. In Galatians 5:19-21, Paul is telling believers what kind of sins can condemn them and destroy them spiritually (i.e. Cause a loss of salvation). Paul mentions "murder" and "adultery" within these list of sins.
Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.
Yet, many who believe as you do, say you need to do these sins a lot in order to be considered the kind of sinful person that the Bible condemns. But this is simply not so according to the Bible as I have shown.
In Galatians 5:4, Paul is condemning the Law of Moses, because he says in Galatians 5:2 that if you seek to be circumcised Christ will profit you nothing. Circumcision is something that is of the Old Law, and not the New Law given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.
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We are dead to the Law of Moses (the 613 commands as a whole or package deal given to Israel), and not all Law. When you read Galatians 2:19, you need to read the whole chapter or context of this verse; Then you will see clearly it is in reference to the Old Law and not all Law in general. We are not dead to the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), or the Royal Law (James 2:8), or the commands that come from Jesus and His followers.
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Nowhere does 1 John 3:15 come from the 613 Laws of Moses. If anything, hating your brother goes all the way back to Cain in the beginning (1 John 3:12).
11 "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother."
(1 John 3:12).
Please quote me the chapter and verse that implies that 1 John 3:15 comes from the Law of Moses.
1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother, you are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
You also did not get it correct when it came to the Bible's description of the two greatest commandments, either. Before you said that the two greatest commandments is to believe in Christ, and to love in Him. While these are important things to do, they are not the two greatest commandments as shown in Scripture. Mark 12:29-31 tells us the two greatest commandments.
The 1st greatest commandment is to hear that the Lord our God is one, and to love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.
The 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.
Scriptural Reference:The 2nd greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself.
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:29-31).
These are the two greatest commandments.
I believe these two commands have carried over into God's unique laws within the New Covenant or New Testament and all laws of God are not lumped together as being called "the Law."
How so?
For one, Jesus gave us a New Commandment.
A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if you have love one to another (John 13:34-35).
We are to love the brethren in the same way that Jesus loved them. This is the NEW Commandment that He gives to us. Not the old one.
The Law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ (John 1:17).
Any man who does not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed (Acts of the Apostles 3:23). Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. You believe the Law is all the same. But it's not the same. There are laws that are exclusive to the New Covenant or New Testament. Only a person who is willing to see these differences will be able to see them.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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You need to be aware that the apostles were fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism," which is the heretical belief that says that a person first needs to be circumcised in order to initially and ultimately be saved.
At the Jerusalem council (that included Paul being present): We learn of three verses that make it clear of the existence of the heretical belief of "Circumcision Salvationism."
- Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
- Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:"
It appears Paul dealt with this same problem in his letters to the different churches, as well:
- Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
- Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
- Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
- Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
- 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
- Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
- Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
- Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
- Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”
For if a Christian was being deceived by a Jew to go back to circumcision as the basis for their salvation, they would be making the Old Law (i.e. the Law of Moses) the basis for their salvation and not Jesus Christ. The Law would be the means by which they would be saved and not faith in Jesus Christ. This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did in regards to the "law" and or "works." He was referring to being justified by the Old Law and or "Law Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace being the entrance gate and foundation of one's salvation).
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Paul (the famous grace teacher) is very much for the necessity of loving God as a part of eternal life. Paul says,
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema [i.e. accursed] Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
Paul is in agreement with the words of Jesus Christ and in living godly. Paul says if any man does not speak in accordance with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine of godliness, they are proud and they know nothing.
3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
Paul's concern in regards to the Law was the ceremonial laws, and not the Moral Law. For Paul says to the Galatians,4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"I am afraid for you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain" (Galatians 4:11).
"You observe days, and months, and times, and years." (Galatians 4:10).
"You observe days, and months, and times, and years." (Galatians 4:10).
Observing days, months, times, and years are observing the sabbaths and holy days; These are the ceremonial laws from the Old Testament Law of Moses and not the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.
Paul further states:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).
Circumcision is a ceremonial Law and not a Moral Law. Circumcision is a part of the Law of Moses and not the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.
Paul says we can fulfill all the Old Law (the 613 Laws given to Moses, not the commands of Jesus) by loving your neighbor (i.e. the Moral Law).
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14).
But the Law being fulfilled in Galatians 5:14 is not in reference to Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).
The word "law" in Galatians 5:14 is in reference to the Law of Moses, and can be fulfilled by "loving your neighbor" (Which is a part of the New Covenant laws).Paul says that to love your neighbor is the equivalent of keeping the Moral Law from the Old Law in Romans 13:8-10. Paul says that if you love your neighbor, you will not murder, covet, steal, commit adultery against your neighbor. So Paul is for the necessity of loving. For the Moral Law is the equivalent of loving your neighbor (Romans 13:8-10); And Paul lists the breaking of the Moral Law like murder, and adultery, etc. in Galatians 5:19-21 as the kinds of sins that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God.
The phrase "inherit the kingdom of God" is in reference to salvation.
For we know in Parable of the Sheep in Goats in Matthew 25:34 says, "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" This parable concludes with it saying in Matthew 25:46:"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." So "inherit the kingdom of God" is in reference to salvation. So Paul is saying that those who do such sins like murder, adultery, etc. will not be saved (or they will not inherit the kingdom of God).
Anyways, the point here is that we have to love our neighbor as a part of eternal life. Paul is for the importance of loving one's neighbor (Galatians 5:14). For the keeping of the Moral Law is the equivalent of loving one's neighbor (Romans 13:8-10), and Paul makes it clear that breaking the Moral Law is a loss of salvation (Galatians 5:19-21).
Note: Moral Laws are the laws that the Gentiles were able to keep without having the written Law (Romans 2:14). These Moral Laws are anything you instinctively know to do good without anyone telling you to do so.
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Rom.8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Keeping the law of Moses and making your own list of laws is the same thing.
You must put to death the deeds of the body and give 100% to Christ.
It requires nothing on your part but faith and love for Christ in what He has done for you.
He will take care kof the rest.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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One New Covenant way to keep the Law of Moses is to love your neighbor (Galatians 5:14). This is one way that the Old Law can be fulfilled by a New Covenant practice. But we cannot be justified by keeping the whole of the Law of Moses (the 613 laws of Moses) (See: Acts of the Apostles 13:39). The Old Law is no more.
You need to understand that there are other laws or commands that are a part of the New Covenant that are not a part of the Laws given to Israel. This is where you drop the ball and fall into your own pit of confusion. You cannot discern the difference or rightly divide the Word of Truth between the Old Law, and the New Law.
As for your reference of "your own list of laws":
Well, there is no "my own list of laws." Any or all lists I have put forth are derived from Scripture and not of my own imagining. To suggest so otherwise is to accuse me falsely. Prove that I am creating my own list of beliefs that cannot be backed up by God's Word. Otherwise you are accusing me falsely, dear sir.
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Paul wrote almost 1/3 of NT scripture for a reason.
We wouldn't even know how to be saved without his letters, we wouldn't understand what salvation means. We would have no idea whatsoever of sanctification.
He explains it all. Everything in the gospels come together by Paul's letters, we understand it through him.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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You also quote Romans 8:13 and do not realize that it refutes the very belief you hold to.
Romans 8:13 essentially says if you live after the flesh (i.e. sin) you will die, but if you put to death the deeds of the body (i.e. sin) by the power of the Spirit, you will live (live eternally). This is further backed up by Romans 8:1 that says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh (i.e. sin), but who walk after the Spirit. Galatians 5:19 says the works of the flesh are the sins listed in Galatians 5:19-21 (like murder, adultery, drunkenness, etc.).
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- Jul 22, 2014
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This does not prove anything that you wrote. I believe Paul also wrote most of the New Testament, but what you said here does not prove your belief and or wrong interpretation upon Paul and others.
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Here is yet another example of you taking Scripture out of it's context to fit a belief that you have.
Nowhere does Matthew 16:25 tie in with Paul's statements against dying to the Law of Moses or the Old Law (and not the New Law).
The Law of Moses was still in effect during the time of Matthew 16:25. The Law of Moses had ended with Christ dying upon the cross. Yes, Jesus was giving us primarily New Commands even before the cross, but the point here is that Paul did not speak against the commands given to us by Jesus. If he did, he would have disqualified himself by his own words in 1 Timothy 6:3-4.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Just read the verse and believe it, and do not try to insert your own outside beliefs upon this verse. Matthew 16:25 means what it says. It is tied with the context of denying yourself, picking up your cross, and following Jesus.
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." (Matthew 16:24).
Jesus is still for teaching the commandments. He teaches about honoring your father and mother and in not speaking bad words (which can defile a person) in Matthew 15. In fact, as a part of the great commission, Jesus said this to His disciples (after He was risen):
"Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:20).
This is at the end of the gospel of Matthew.
Even the last chapter of your Bible in Revelation 22:14-15 says this:
"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Revelation 22:14-15).
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OK, there are 1050 commandments of Christ in scripture. If you live by just one of these you are obligated to keep all.
James said if you break one commandment you are guilty of all.
There is no difference in keeping the law of Moses and the commandments of Christ.
His commandments came from the law, the same thing.
If you live by law you will die by law.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
So follow Jesus, who perfectly honors Torah. Do as the Father Says (which is NEVER contrary to Torah).
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Jesus fulfilled the Law for us, no man on earth ever kept the law.
Through faith in Him, you are kept from the law that kills.
It must be 100% faith in Him or nothing. It can't be 90% faith and 10% law/commandment keeping.
Paul plainly told us, "if by grace it is no more of works."
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
It wasn't the Torah that killed people.
It isn't the Torah that kills people today.
Sin and transgressions are still what separates people from Yahweh and from fellowship.
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Why do you think the sacrificial system was placed in the law of Moses?
Because no one could keep the law! That's how the law kills!
Faith in the coming Christ by sacrifice on the alter is what saved them. It was Grace.
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