Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,487.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
A basic belief of the Seventh Day Adventists is that there is no soul or spirit separate from the body. The SDA church teaches that death is followed by Soul Sleep, that the person is not conscious until the resurrection, a literal, physical resurrection. This belief is jarring to many Christians and it overlooks some key passages in the Bible. Many members of the SDA church and others influenced by the writings of their founder, Ellen White, vehemently deny the existence of a soul.

To Ellen White, Satan is not a disembodied spirit, Satan has a physical body, a human body. The same goes for the fallen angels who followed Satan, they are not spirits either, they have bodies. At the end of the world, Satan and subordinate demons will be destroyed in the body, by fire, and will cease to exist. Mortals don't have souls, and neither do angels or demons.

In the Gospels, the casting out of demons is an important part of the ministry of Jesus and his Disciples. This casting out of demons, evil spirits, or impure spirits, occurs in numerous passages. Not one of these passages shows these afflicting demons as physical. Not once is a demon ever seen leaving the body of a demon-possessed person. There is no suggestion in the Gospel that a demon has any weight or that they occupy space. In the Gospel, a demon is a disembodied spirit that can sometimes prey on the souls of mortals.

The Gospels contradict Ellen White's assumption that demons must have actual bodies, a notion that comes from her denial of a soul.

The casting out of demons is described in nine passages in Mark, including three in the first chapter. It is also described in nine passages in Luke and eight passages in Matthew.
 

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,815
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,540.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Your ignorance of SDA teaching is quite obvious.
In what way? You need to qualify your comment with what you think is SDA teaching on these issues, otherwise all you have done is a throw-away comment.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,487.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Casting out Demons in Mark



23 Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an impure spirit cried out, 24 “What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
25 “Be quiet!” said Jesus sternly. “Come out of him!” 26 The impure spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.
27 The people were all so amazed that they asked each other, “What is this? A new teaching—and with authority! He even gives orders to impure spirits and they obey him.”
Mark 1:23-27 NIV

32 That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. 33 The whole town gathered at the door, 34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
Mark 1:32-33 NIV

9 So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons.
Mark 1:39 NIV

14 He appointed twelve that they might be with him and that he might send them out to preach 15 and to have authority to drive out demons.
Mark 3:14 NIV

22 And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
Mark 3:22 NIV

2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.
6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”
9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.
11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.
14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.
18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him.
Mark 5:2-18 NIV

13 They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.
Mark 6:13 NIV

24 Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. 25 In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet. 26 The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27 “First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
28 “Lord,” she replied, “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”
29 Then he told her, “For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter.”
30 She went home and found her child lying on the bed, and the demon gone.
Mark 7:26-30 NIV

38 “Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.”
Mark 9:13 NICV
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,487.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Casting out demons in Luke



33 In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an impure spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34 “Go away! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!”
35 “Be quiet!” Jesus said sternly. “Come out of him!” Then the demon threw the man down before them all and came out without injuring him.
36 All the people were amazed and said to each other, “What words these are! With authority and power he gives orders to impure spirits and they come out!”
Luke 4:33-36 NIV


41 Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.
Luke 4:41 NIV

After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out;
Luke 8 1-2 NIV

26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee. 27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs. 28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don’t torture me!” 29 For Jesus had commanded the impure spirit to come out of the man. Many times it had seized him, and though he was chained hand and foot and kept under guard, he had broken his chains and had been driven by the demon into solitary places.
30 Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”
“Legion,” he replied, because many demons had gone into him. 31 And they begged Jesus repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss.
32 A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside. The demons begged Jesus to let them go into the pigs, and he gave them permission. 33 When the demons came out of the man, they went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.
34 When those tending the pigs saw what had happened, they ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, 35 and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they found the man from whom the demons had gone out, sitting at Jesus’ feet, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 36 Those who had seen it told the people how the demon-possessed man had been cured. 37 Then all the people of the region of the Gerasenes asked Jesus to leave them, because they were overcome with fear. So he got into the boat and left.
38 The man from whom the demons had gone out begged to go with him, but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 “Return home and tell how much God has done for you.” So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him.
Luke 8:26-39 NIV

When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Luke 9:1-2 NIV

37 The next day, when they came down from the mountain, a large crowd met him. 38 A man in the crowd called out, “Teacher, I beg you to look at my son, for he is my only child. 39 A spirit seizes him and he suddenly screams; it throws him into convulsions so that he foams at the mouth. It scarcely ever leaves him and is destroying him. 40 I begged your disciples to drive it out, but they could not.”
41 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you and put up with you? Bring your son here.”
42 Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the impure spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father.
Luke 9:37-42 NIV

17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
Luke 10:17 NIV

14 Jesus was driving out a demon that was mute. When the demon left, the man who had been mute spoke, and the crowd was amazed.
Luke 11:14 NIV

32 He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’
Luke 13:32 NIV
 
Upvote 0

Within Reason

Active Member
Feb 21, 2020
114
38
Miles City
✟2,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
... Not once is a demon ever seen leaving the body of a demon-possessed person. ...
That is because the devils do not physically enter a person/being. What devils do is "possess" the mind/heart. A devil cast out, is not being physically removed from the person/being, but that their control over the mind/heart is being removed. For instance, see John 13:2, wherein the devil is placing ideas into the mind of Judas. Once the devil has control of the heart/mind, he has control then over the whole body, including mouth (speech), etc. It is mind upon mind (like as unto hypnosis, which is possession, the hypnotizer has control over the person, for the person submitted their will to another (which is all that possession is)). It is Truth which sets persons free, when they acknowledge the Truth.

Most misunderstand possession as found in scripture, and most misunderstand the physical nature of angels in scripture.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Justin BT

Active Member
Jan 18, 2020
66
31
34
Taipei
✟17,705.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
In what way? You need to qualify your comment with what you think is SDA teaching on these issues, otherwise all you have done is a throw-away comment.

The OP asserts something about SDA doctrine that is clearly false. (The OP either knows little about SDA doctrine or is being deliberately deceptive about SDA doctrine – straw manning it) The OP uses no references to support his strawman.

Then someone points out the problem and is criticised for doing the same thing the OP did.

Can someone Provide some references to support the idea that even one SDA holds this position regarding angels and demons, then we’ll have something to talk about.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,815
10,795
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟833,540.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
The OP asserts something about SDA doctrine that is clearly false. (The OP either knows little about SDA doctrine or is being deliberately deceptive about SDA doctrine – straw manning it) The OP uses no references to support his strawman.

Then someone points out the problem and is criticised for not using references.

This exchange summarises all that is wrong with forums. It’s not possible to refute made up ideas about the SDA position on angels, if it is made up. Provide some references to support the idea that even one SDA holds this position regarding angels and demons and we’ll have something to talk about.
OK. I hear you. But what you need to do is to give your view of the relevant SDA doctrine so we know why you think the OP's view is false.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Within Reason

Active Member
Feb 21, 2020
114
38
Miles City
✟2,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
To Ellen White, Satan is not a disembodied spirit, Satan has a physical body, a human body. ...
The first part is true, while the latter part is incorrect. Seventh-day Adventists, of whom I know many, have never taught (and neither EGW), that satan has a "human body". Angels do not have the same flesh nature as mankind, but are a differing class of flesh:

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.​

EGW has stated in Spiritual Gifts, Volume 1, page 27.2:

"... I was then shown Satan as he was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede backward. I saw that he had demeaned himself so long, that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me [28] tremble, it was so full of evil, and Satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. {1SG 27.2} ..."
Which is correct according to scripture. Angels have physical nature, superior to that of mankind. So satan has a physical body, just not a "human body". I hope that clarifies things.

Will you correct your statements about what Seventh-day Adventists and EGW in particular believe? As of right now, you have two parts true and one part false, which is exactly what the serpent did in the beginning with Eve.
 
Upvote 0

Justin BT

Active Member
Jan 18, 2020
66
31
34
Taipei
✟17,705.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Angels/Demons:
Thanks for sharing a reference. This is in line with the SDA’s that I know. And as far as I know is in line with Christian doctrine. Angels and demons (including Satan) are created beings and can take on some kind of physical or visible form.

People:
The question regarding the ability of a human souls being able to exist outside of a human body is a separate debate (and the SDA position on Humans and soul sleep is clearly outside of the realm of standard Christian doctrine)

SDA’s do not assert angels and demons sleep when they are out of physical form.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Within Reason

Active Member
Feb 21, 2020
114
38
Miles City
✟2,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Do you deny that the SDA teach the doctrine of Soul Sleep?
No, Seventh-day Adventists rightly teach this, as that is what scripture teaches, for instance:

Job_14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!​

Do you deny that reject the existence of a soul apart from the body?
Yes, as the scripture teaches that a "soul" is a whole being, the life, for instance:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Lev_17:15 And every soul that eateth that which died of itself, or that which was torn with beasts, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even: then shall he be clean.

Rev_16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.​
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,183
1,229
71
Sebring, FL
✟666,487.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Casting out demons in Matthew


24 News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed; and he healed them.
Matthew 4:24 NIV

16 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick.
Matthew 8:16 NIV

28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[c] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”
30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”
32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
Matthew 8:28-32 NIV

32 While they were going out, a man who was demon-possessed and could not talk was brought to Jesus. 33 And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke. The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”
Matthew 9:32-33 NIV

8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
Matthew 10:8 NIV

22 Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see.
Matthew 12:22 NIV

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”
23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”
24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”
25 The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said.
26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.
Matthew 15:21-28 NIV

14 When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15 “Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16 I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”
17 “You unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18 Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed at that moment.
Matthew 17: 14-18 NIV
 
Upvote 0

Justin BT

Active Member
Jan 18, 2020
66
31
34
Taipei
✟17,705.00
Country
Taiwan
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Do you deny that the SDA teach the doctrien of Soul Sleep?

Do you deny that reject the existence of a soul apart from the body?

The title of this thread is "Adventist view of demons is wrong". No SDA teaches this that I am aware of.

It appears some people are conflating the SDA position regarding human beings and soul sleep with the debate regarding the Christian position of the state of spiritual beings — Demons (δαιμόνιον) and Angels (ἄγγελος)?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

eleos1954

God is Love
Site Supporter
Nov 14, 2017
9,810
5,656
Utah
✟722,019.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Do you deny that the SDA teach the doctrien of Soul Sleep?

Do you deny that reject the existence of a soul apart from the body?

The bible describes death as sleep .... many many many verses .... Jesus himself describes death as sleep

The bible teaches we are not immortal in any way, shape or form ... that does not happen until Jesus returns (at the last trump) and the 1st resurrection happens.

It is summed up here by Paul, although there is many many verses that supports his summation

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,cso that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

and here

1 Corinthians 15

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” ...
 
Upvote 0

Within Reason

Active Member
Feb 21, 2020
114
38
Miles City
✟2,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Seventh-day Adventists (such as EGW) even teach that the Father and Son have "form":

For instance (EGW) stated, as recorded in A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G. White, p. 43.1:

"... I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus’ countenance and admired his lovely person. The Father’s person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered him. I asked Jesus if his Father had a form like himself. He said he had, but I could not behold it, for said he, if you should once behold the glory of his person you would cease to exist. Before the throne I saw the Advent people, the church and the world. I saw a company bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the most of them stood disinterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then he would look to his Father, and appeared to be pleading with him. A light would come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. But few would receive this great light; many came out from under it and immediately resisted it; others were careless and did not cherish the light, and it moved off from them. Some cherished it, and went and bowed down with the little praying company. This company all received the light, and rejoiced in it, as their countenances shone with its glory. And I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the Holy of Holies, within the vail, and did sit. Then Jesus rose up from the throne, and the most of those who were bowed down arose with him: and I did not see one ray of light pass from Jesus to the careless multitude after he arose, and they were left in perfect darkness. Those who rose up when Jesus did, kept their eyes fixed on him as he left the throne and led them out a little way. Then he raised his right arm and we heard his lovely …"
This too is scriptural.

Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.​

He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: BrotherD
Upvote 0

Within Reason

Active Member
Feb 21, 2020
114
38
Miles City
✟2,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
James White has gone on record as saying, in Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1:

"... PERSONALITY OF GOD

MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}

But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}

The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}

Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}

Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}

We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.

OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}

ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}

OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}

ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}

2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}

God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}

Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}

Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}

"And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}

"Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]

After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1}

IMMATERIALITY

THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}

O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]

who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}

The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}

Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}

As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}

What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}

What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}

What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}

We choose all substance - what remains
The mystical sectarian gains;
All that each claims, each shall possess,
Nor grudge each other's happiness.

An immaterial God they choose,
For such a God we have no use;
An immaterial heaven and hell,
In such a heaven we cannot dwell.

We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
And all the starry worlds on high;
Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
And bodies made of flesh and bones.

Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
All things are ours, and we shall be,
The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..."​
 
Upvote 0

Within Reason

Active Member
Feb 21, 2020
114
38
Miles City
✟2,500.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
The bible describes death as sleep .... many many many verses .... ...
Surely, it truly does:

[sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

[knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

[grave/s, sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]] Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14​
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums