Adventist View of Demons is False

[Dale]

The bible describes death as sleep .... many many many verses .... Jesus himself describes death as sleep

The bible teaches we are not immortal in any way, shape or form ... that does not happen until Jesus returns (at the last trump) and the 1st resurrection happens.

It is summed up here by Paul, although there is many many verses that supports his summation

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,cso that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

and here

1 Corinthians 15

50Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” ...

Eleos, unfortunately, all you are doing here is ignoring the question I posed in the OP. The Gospels give us twenty-six examples of Jesus and his disciples casting out one or more demons. The SDA can't explain demon possession, it completely contradicts the SDA scheme of things.

If humans have souls and demons are disembodied souls, it makes sense that a disembodied soul could impact a human soul.

The SDA deny that humans have souls and they deny that demons are disembodied, they say that demons have bodies. So how could any mortal ever be possessed by a demon?

When Ellen White says that Satan was "cast out" of heaven, she means that he was cast out in the body. So what does the Gospel mean when it says that demons are cast out? It certainly doesn't mean that they are cast out in the body.

The Adventists are clueless on possession and exorcism, which strongly suggests that they are clueless on the meaning of the Gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

A basic belief of the Seventh Day Adventists is that there is no soul or spirit separate from the body.

Whuh huh??

The SDA church teaches that death is followed by Soul Sleep -- where body is "destroyed" Matt 10:28 but the spirit "returns to God who gave it" and preserves that person (the "soul" of Matthew 10:28) in a "Dormant" - sleep, state.

, that the person is not conscious until the resurrection, a literal, physical resurrection. This belief is jarring to many Christians

Interesting objection to the SDA teaching - but not a "sola scriptura" point of any kind.

BTW what does this have to do with "What a demon is"?? (i.e. the title of your thread)

Many members of the SDA church and others influenced by the writings of their founder, Ellen White, vehemently deny the existence of a soul.

No true in real life - but since it is your thread I guess you can say whatever comes to mind.

Meanwhile back to my question -- what does this have to do with "What a demon is"?? (i.e. the title of your thread)

To Ellen White, Satan is not a disembodied spirit

"To Ellen White"??? What about the physical description of angels we have in the Bible. At some point I think that Bible is of interest.

"Mortals don't have souls, and neither do angels or demons." - is this you quoting you again? Why do you keep doing that? What is the point?

"In the Gospel, a demon is a disembodied spirit" -- no text says that.

In some Bible contexts the "soul" is the entire person and "living soul" is body + the breath of life. In other Bible contexts such as Matthew 10:28 the soul is the spirit of the person that survives death -- but as 1Thess 4 points out - in a dormant state.

 

[BobRyan]

You say that Satan placed ideas into the mind of Judas. This is fair enough, but does the condition of a possessed person go further than this? It looks like it does.

Indeed it does. Demons take control of motor functions of the person - they can directly manipulate the body through some sort of take-over of the brain. The person may be conscious of what it taking place or they may not be.

 

[BobRyan]

When Ellen White says that Satan was "cast out" of heaven, she means that he was cast out in the body. .

When the Bible says that Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven Rev 12 it means that they were physically cast out.

Are you "ok" with the Bible as the context for the discussion or do you need Ellen White for this??

 

[Blade]

So Ellen had tons of visions. And to some SDA her words are scripture. Yet I do know not all SDA follow believe what Ellen said. Yet we still have Miller.

I think one main problem here is.. were still looking at whats REAL (Gods realm, where He is) through the eyes of flesh, this world. king David talked about death "For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption." His body would be? Look as if he was sleeping.. well at 1st

But.. who did Jesus talk to? Moses and Elijah.. not sleeping. Christ died.. yet.. He went somewhere. Then after He said "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father". As with all of us..with out this flesh.. we still are life. Life is what GOD makes. What GOD makes it can not die. This realm is what SIN does. pfft what do I know.. lol

 

[BobRyan]

So Ellen had tons of visions. And to some SDA her words are scripture.

The mechanism of prophecy according to the Bible is that God contacts a prophet and tells them something.

I assume that is what you mean.

Yet I do know not all SDA follow believe what Ellen said. Yet we still have Miller.

One thing is for certain - William Miller was never a Seventh-day Adventist.
Never kept the Sabbath.
Did not have our belief on the soul/spirit hell..
Did not have our view about clean vs unclean meat etc.
Did not have our view of the Investigative Judgment etc.

Just about every distinctive doctrine we hold - William Miller did not share.

 

[BobRyan]

But.. who did Jesus talk to? Moses and Elijah.. not sleeping.

True - neither of them are dead in Matthew 17 since scripture tells us Elijah was translated - taken directly to heaven by God without dying and the book "the Assumption of Moses" quoted in the book of Jude - tells us that God raised Moses from the dead.

Now if David or Abraham or ... Samuel etc were there in Matthew 17 .. we would have something to discuss.

Christ died.. yet.. He went somewhere.

in fact Christ stated that he did not go anywhere and so tells Mary "touch me not for I am not yet ascended to the Father". His dormant state in the tomb did have Him "going anywhere".

The Bible (and so -- not an Ellen White quote) says this

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

In scripture - the loved ones who have died -- go by these references.
"Those who have fallen asleep"
"The DEAD in Christ"

"the living know that they will die - the dead know not anything" Eccl 9:5

So then death is not the "university of knowing-everything" that some have claimed.

Matt 10:28 the body does not sleep in death - rather it is "killed". It is the soul that survives in the dormant state of 1Thes4 "our friend Lazarus sleeps" John 10... not "our friend Lazarus's body sleeps"

This is not a discussion that requires Adventists to rely on any Ellen White quotes at all.

so then "Sword of the Spirit" will do just fine.

 

[DNB]

Are you part of the remnant?

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 19:10
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

I believe in Jesus Christ as first-born of creation, and first-born from the dead. King of Kings, and lord of Lords. I believe that I am born-again of the Spirit.
I assume that this answers your question?

 

[BobRyan]

Outside of that, as far as I know, I hold to no other SDA doctrine, whatsoever.

A few of the Christian doctrines affirmed by Seventh-day Adventists are listed here
Today at 5:23 PM #1

So then --

The Seventh-day Adventist denomination is a decidedly Christian denomination with Bible-based Christian doctrines.

The Doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church are reviewed and voted on by representatives from the entire world wide denomination - every 5 years. And they have remained more or less unchanged from their form at the start of the 1900's.

ChristianityToday identifies the Seventh-day Adventist denomination as the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world - in its Feb 2015 article.

Central doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church include
1. 66 books of the Bible - and Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.
2. One Gospel - saved by grace through faith - for all of time in both OT and NT.
3. The Protestant day-for-year historicist method of interpreting prophecy
4. Bodily incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ, literal bodily resurrection of Christ, literal 2nd coming, literal hell , literal future resurrection of the saints, literal 1000 years millennium, literal lake of fire event after the 1000 years and literal great white throne judgment in Rev 20 as well as a literal New Earth in Rev 21-22.
5. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as the "Triune Godhead" -- all of them eternal, all knowing, all powerful, and all wise. Referred to as "The Trinity" and they alone are God in all the universe (and of course - only 1 universe).
6. Literal 7 day creation of the world less than 10,000 years ago. (Most Adventists believe the world is about 6000 years old).
7. The Atoning Sacrifice of Christ 1 John 2:2 full and complete 2000 years ago .. and it is for "our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the entire world" 1 John 2:2
8. The Bible doctrine of Atonement as we see it in Leviticus 16 includes both the "Atoning Sacrifice of Christ" on the cross as the "sin offering" - but also what Paul calls the "main point' in Hebrews 8:1-6 which is that Christ is now in heaven's Sanctuary as our High Priest "seated at the right hand of the Father"
9. The Gospel preached in all the world and then the end will come - the 2nd coming.. Matthew 24.
10. All Ten of God's Ten Commandments are included in the moral LAW of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 as almost all Christian denominations have affirmed. (including the "Baptist Confession of Faith", the "Westminster Confession of Faith", D.L. Moody, the Catholic Catechism, C.H. Spurgeon, R.C.Sproul etc).
11. All mankind are sinners, all have a fallen nature and all are enslaved to sin apart from the gospel. But the Gospel is offered to all mankind and enables the choice to accept salvation for all - so that "whosoever will" may come to Christ. "If anyone hears my voice AND opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.
12. Spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12 are still valid today - but what is popularly called "the gift of tongues" today is not what is found in scripture - not in Acts 2, 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 14 etc, and so that popular form of it is not practiced in the Seventh-day Adventist church.

So Adventists are saying that tongues ARE one of the gifts in 1 Cor 12 and ARE what we find in scripture and are still valid - but what we see popularly practiced today is not the Bible gift of tongues.

And would you still add...

Outside of that, as far as I know, I hold to no other SDA doctrine, whatsoever.

??

 

[DNB]

A few of the Christian doctrines affirmed by Seventh-day Adventists are listed here
Today at 5:23 PM #1
So then --
And would you still add...??

I should've clarified, I hold to no other doctrines that are distinctly SDA. Most of the 12 tenets that you cited, are adhered to by most Christian groups. And as I expressed earlier to OHC, I'm non denominational, but invariably, I share certain convictions with a variety of other Churches, of course.
But, since we're on this topic, I'd like to just offer my position on the points that you brought up in your enumeration.

Agreed - 1. 66 books of the Bible - and Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice.
Sola Fide, but not OSAS - 2. One Gospel - saved by grace through faith - for all of time in both OT and NT.
Not necessarily - 3. The Protestant day-for-year historicist method of interpreting prophecy
Agreed to all, but the incarnation (heresy) - 4. Bodily incarnation of God the Son as Jesus Christ, literal bodily resurrection of Christ, literal 2nd coming, literal hell , literal future resurrection of the saints, literal 1000 years millennium, literal lake of fire event after the 1000 years and literal great white throne judgment in Rev 20 as well as a literal New Earth in Rev 21-22.
Complete heresy (only Father is God) - 5. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as the "Triune Godhead" -- all of them eternal, all knowing, all powerful, and all wise. Referred to as "The Trinity" and they alone are God in all the universe (and of course - only 1 universe).
Agreed - 6. Literal 7 day creation of the world less than 10,000 years ago.
Agreed - 7. The Atoning Sacrifice of Christ 1 John 2:2 full and complete 2000 years ago .. and it is for "our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the entire world" 1 John 2:2
Agreed - 8. The Bible doctrine of Atonement as we see it in Leviticus 16 includes both the "Atoning Sacrifice of Christ" on the cross as the "sin offering" - but also what Paul calls the "main point' in Hebrews 8:1-6 which is that Christ is now in heaven's Sanctuary as our High Priest "seated at the right hand of the Father"
Agreed - 9. The Gospel preached in all the world and then the end will come - the 2nd coming.. Matthew 24.
No - 10. All Ten of God's Ten Commandments are included in the moral LAW of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33
No to fallen nature, yes to all eligible for salvation - 11. All mankind are sinners, all have a fallen nature and all are enslaved to sin apart from the gospel. But the Gospel is offered to all mankind and enables the choice to accept salvation for all
Agreed - 12. Spiritual gifts of 1 Cor 12 are still valid today - but what is popularly called "the gift of tongues" today is not what is found in scripture - not in Acts 2, 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 14 etc, and so that popular form of it is not practiced in the Seventh-day Adventist church.

 

[BobRyan]

I should've clarified, I hold to no other doctrines that are distinctly SDA. Most of the 12 tenets that you cited, are adhered to by most Christian groups. .

Thanks. I would be surprised if you did hold to more than one or two doctrines that are "distinctly SDA" -- so I think that is to be expected.