Questions about the Trinity

chevyontheriver · Jan 31, 2020

Kilk1 said:
So is the difference between three divine persons that are one God and three (allegedly) divine persons that are three gods is whether they're opposed to each other? Would this mean that if the opposing gods of Greco-Roman fame decided to be united, that this would make them one god? Just making sure I understand your answer correctly.

No. But then it's hard to speak cogently of something as profound and mysterious as the Trinity. The three persons of the Trinity are described as 'one in being' aka 'consubstantial' aka 'homoousious'. So it is way beyond the agreement, no matter how profound, between three separate beings. It's one being, and an evidence of their oneness is their perfect agreement.

I was specifically wanting the term "YHWH," "Jehovah," or "LORD" (all caps, as the term is sometimes rendered). However, do the terms YHWH and I AM essentially mean the same thing, perhaps?

Yes. YHWH translates to 'I AM WHO AM' and Jesus was saying he was God every time he said 'I am'. It's why they were all so upset with Jesus for saying so. He was declaring himself to be God.

Daniel9v9 · Feb 1, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Thanks for your reply!

Isaiah 43:10 says, "Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me" (NKJV). If we define God as "Uncreated One," wouldn't this go against there being three Uncreated Ones, because we have an Uncreated One saying none were before Him or after Him?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this answers my question.

"I am" is said by many people in the Bible, and we say it every day. How do we know the difference between saying "I AM" as a claim to deity and the normal "I am" as in, "I am hungry"? In other words, how do we know that Jesus saying "I am..." is a claim to be the Great I AM vs. just being coincidental?

While I still have some confusion, thanks for the response!

Sure, no problem - Let me see if I can explain in a bit more detail. Please bear with me!

Regarding God being uncreated: God the Father is uncreated, God the Son is uncreated, and God the Holy Spirit is uncreated. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the one true, almighty and uncreated God - YHWH. Yet, the Son is mysteriously begotten of the Father from eternity; He is conceived from eternity through the Holy Spirit and born in time and space by the virgin Mary. So, in short, we can rightly say that (1) God is uncreated and (2) Jesus, according to His divine nature is uncreated, but according to His human nature is born of a woman. So He is uncreated and created at the same time, because He is fully man and fully God. Not 50/50; not a demigod; but a 100% man and 100% God - truly and incomprehensibly God in flesh. And there's great joy in this, for here we learn that God is our Father, brother, bridegroom, friend, king and saviour who made us in His image and will again at the last day restore us in perfect union with Himself, through the reconciling work of Jesus.

About Jesus, specifically, John 1 opens with: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." The expression the "Word" here is an English translation of the Greek "Logos" which is a philosophical term that John uses (under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit) to refer to the Son, that is, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. So whenever we this "Word" written in capital W, we know this to mean God the Son, before Jesus was born. So here John is showing us that the Son was the creator - or a bit more pointedly - Jesus created the world. Not because He is the Father, but because He was with the Father, and with the Holy Spirit, three persons, one God. A bit further down in the text, we see that the Son (Jesus) "came into his own". That is, He entered His own creation.

So, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ - that is, the Son - is eternal. The incarnate Jesus Christ - God in flesh - was born of Mary. In this way Jesus existed before Abraham and after Abraham at the same time, and there were no increase of gods, for there is always only one God - YHWH.

Scriptures make it very clear that there is only one God. This is the great Shema Yisrael - "Hear, O Israel: the LORD (YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one." The Bible will on occasion use the term "god" in other situations, such as to refer to kings, or in reference to or mockery of supposed "gods" and idols. However, the use of "god" in these situations must be read in context and understood to be figurative. God says in Isaiah 45: "I am the LORD (YHWH), and there is no other, besides me there is no God"

So the reason I said "When we think of God, we should think of Jesus Christ, as He is the manifestation of God.", is that there is only one God, who no one has ever seen, yet, by God's grace was seen in the man Jesus Christ. So, whenever we think of God, we should think of Jesus, who is God made visible and tangible to us. And besides Jesus, there is no other God. As it's written in Acts 4 about Jesus: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Regarding "I AM": The most frequent name of God in the OT is YHWH, which we first find in Exodus 3, when God is speaking to Moses through the burning bush. We can understand this "angel of the LORD" as God the Son, or the pre-incarnate Jesus, speaking to Moses, revealing His own holy name "YHWH".
YHWH is translated into English as "I AM", but this is no ordinary "I am" that we use, but a personal and divine name, and a name that holds a lot of meaning. It implies that God is the one and only God and that He is almighty and uncreated. John, in his Gospel account, uses this personal name of God and applies it to Jesus, and it's not applied to anyone else but God in all of the Bible. This is not too apparent in English, but in its original language, it's carefully constructed to illustrate that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, and that there is no other Lord and Saviour but Jesus Christ.

To sum up, it's best said in the prophetic words of Isaiah when He speaks of Jesus:
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Here we see that God is called both a child and a son, and Mighty God and Everlasting Father at the same time. What a great mystery! And that He is our Prince of Peace, working the forgiveness of sins for all who believe in His name. What joy!

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but hopefully this can clarify a bit. Blessings +

ewq1938 · Feb 3, 2020

Tra Phull said:
I think saying only the Father, not even the Son, knows the day and hour, I think that refers to Jesus prior to glorification. I think the Son does know now.

Yes I agree which would explain why he gave so much more details about when he was returning in Rev...mainly regarding the second coming happening after the end of the 42 months, and then the 3.5 days the two prophets lie dead. The day they resurrect is the same day Christ returns so we have two points where we can calculate the day of the second coming once certain events begin....the hour would be more difficult but knowing the right day is enough for those who are watchers and look for his return.

Tra Phull · Feb 3, 2020

Hebrews 9:28

Julian of Norwich · Feb 4, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Sure, no problem - Let me see if I can explain in a bit more detail. Please bear with me!

Regarding God being uncreated: God the Father is uncreated, God the Son is uncreated, and God the Holy Spirit is uncreated. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the one true, almighty and uncreated God - YHWH. Yet, the Son is mysteriously begotten of the Father from eternity; He is conceived from eternity through the Holy Spirit and born in time and space by the virgin Mary. So, in short, we can rightly say that (1) God is uncreated and (2) Jesus, according to His divine nature is uncreated, but according to His human nature is born of a woman. So He is uncreated and created at the same time, because He is fully man and fully God. Not 50/50; not a demigod; but a 100% man and 100% God - truly and incomprehensibly God in flesh. And there's great joy in this, for here we learn that God is our Father, brother, bridegroom, friend, king and saviour who made us in His image and will again at the last day restore us in perfect union with Himself, through the reconciling work of Jesus.

About Jesus, specifically, John 1 opens with: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." The expression the "Word" here is an English translation of the Greek "Logos" which is a philosophical term that John uses (under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit) to refer to the Son, that is, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. So whenever we this "Word" written in capital W, we know this to mean God the Son, before Jesus was born. So here John is showing us that the Son was the creator - or a bit more pointedly - Jesus created the world. Not because He is the Father, but because He was with the Father, and with the Holy Spirit, three persons, one God. A bit further down in the text, we see that the Son (Jesus) "came into his own". That is, He entered His own creation.

So, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ - that is, the Son - is eternal. The incarnate Jesus Christ - God in flesh - was born of Mary. In this way Jesus existed before Abraham and after Abraham at the same time, and there were no increase of gods, for there is always only one God - YHWH.

Scriptures make it very clear that there is only one God. This is the great Shema Yisrael - "Hear, O Israel: the LORD (YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one." The Bible will on occasion use the term "god" in other situations, such as to refer to kings, or in reference to or mockery of supposed "gods" and idols. However, the use of "god" in these situations must be read in context and understood to be figurative. God says in Isaiah 45: "I am the LORD (YHWH), and there is no other, besides me there is no God"

So the reason I said "When we think of God, we should think of Jesus Christ, as He is the manifestation of God.", is that there is only one God, who no one has ever seen, yet, by God's grace was seen in the man Jesus Christ. So, whenever we think of God, we should think of Jesus, who is God made visible and tangible to us. And besides Jesus, there is no other God. As it's written in Acts 4 about Jesus: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Regarding "I AM": The most frequent name of God in the OT is YHWH, which we first find in Exodus 3, when God is speaking to Moses through the burning bush. We can understand this "angel of the LORD" as God the Son, or the pre-incarnate Jesus, speaking to Moses, revealing His own holy name "YHWH".
YHWH is translated into English as "I AM", but this is no ordinary "I am" that we use, but a personal and divine name, and a name that holds a lot of meaning. It implies that God is the one and only God and that He is almighty and uncreated. John, in his Gospel account, uses this personal name of God and applies it to Jesus, and it's not applied to anyone else but God in all of the Bible. This is not too apparent in English, but in its original language, it's carefully constructed to illustrate that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, and that there is no other Lord and Saviour but Jesus Christ.

To sum up, it's best said in the prophetic words of Isaiah when He speaks of Jesus:
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Here we see that God is called both a child and a son, and Mighty God and Everlasting Father at the same time. What a great mystery! And that He is our Prince of Peace, working the forgiveness of sins for all who believe in His name. What joy!

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but hopefully this can clarify a bit. Blessings +

Wonderful explanation!

Kilk1 · Feb 5, 2020

AvgJoe said:
Even with much study, we will never fully grasp the totality of God. The simplest explanation I've ever heard is, the Trinity is "1 What & 3 Whos", that is to say, "1 Essence & 3 Persons".

What God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart will help show how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture.

View attachment 271213
The following link, will hopefully, be helpful to you, also~~~> www.gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_sort=0&zoom_query=trinity

Sorry for the late reply, and thanks for all the information! One thing I would like to ask is how we know that the Trinity is "1 What & 3 Whos." Isn't God a "who" in Scripture (e.g., Ex. 3:14)?

Kilk1 · Feb 5, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
No. But then it's hard to speak cogently of something as profound and mysterious as the Trinity. The three persons of the Trinity are described as 'one in being' aka 'consubstantial' aka 'homoousious'. So it is way beyond the agreement, no matter how profound, between three separate beings. It's one being, and an evidence of their oneness is their perfect agreement.

This is why the definition of "God" confuses me. What trait causes multiple divine persons to be one God? It isn't mere unity in purpose; else, pagan gods that were united would be one god. While I'm not denying Trinitarianism, it doesn't make sense to me because of this.

chevyontheriver said:
Yes. YHWH translates to 'I AM WHO AM' and Jesus was saying he was God every time he said 'I am'. It's why they were all so upset with Jesus for saying so. He was declaring himself to be God.

Interesting. I haven't thought much about it before, but if Jesus calls Himself YHWH, that's significant. I think I'm going to do some study on John 8:58. Thank you!

Kilk1 · Feb 5, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
Sure, no problem - Let me see if I can explain in a bit more detail. Please bear with me!

Regarding God being uncreated: God the Father is uncreated, God the Son is uncreated, and God the Holy Spirit is uncreated. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the one true, almighty and uncreated God - YHWH. Yet, the Son is mysteriously begotten of the Father from eternity; He is conceived from eternity through the Holy Spirit and born in time and space by the virgin Mary. So, in short, we can rightly say that (1) God is uncreated and (2) Jesus, according to His divine nature is uncreated, but according to His human nature is born of a woman. So He is uncreated and created at the same time, because He is fully man and fully God. Not 50/50; not a demigod; but a 100% man and 100% God - truly and incomprehensibly God in flesh. And there's great joy in this, for here we learn that God is our Father, brother, bridegroom, friend, king and saviour who made us in His image and will again at the last day restore us in perfect union with Himself, through the reconciling work of Jesus.

About Jesus, specifically, John 1 opens with: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it." The expression the "Word" here is an English translation of the Greek "Logos" which is a philosophical term that John uses (under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit) to refer to the Son, that is, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. So whenever we this "Word" written in capital W, we know this to mean God the Son, before Jesus was born. So here John is showing us that the Son was the creator - or a bit more pointedly - Jesus created the world. Not because He is the Father, but because He was with the Father, and with the Holy Spirit, three persons, one God. A bit further down in the text, we see that the Son (Jesus) "came into his own". That is, He entered His own creation.

So, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ - that is, the Son - is eternal. The incarnate Jesus Christ - God in flesh - was born of Mary. In this way Jesus existed before Abraham and after Abraham at the same time, and there were no increase of gods, for there is always only one God - YHWH.

Scriptures make it very clear that there is only one God. This is the great Shema Yisrael - "Hear, O Israel: the LORD (YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one." The Bible will on occasion use the term "god" in other situations, such as to refer to kings, or in reference to or mockery of supposed "gods" and idols. However, the use of "god" in these situations must be read in context and understood to be figurative. God says in Isaiah 45: "I am the LORD (YHWH), and there is no other, besides me there is no God"

So the reason I said "When we think of God, we should think of Jesus Christ, as He is the manifestation of God.", is that there is only one God, who no one has ever seen, yet, by God's grace was seen in the man Jesus Christ. So, whenever we think of God, we should think of Jesus, who is God made visible and tangible to us. And besides Jesus, there is no other God. As it's written in Acts 4 about Jesus: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Regarding "I AM": The most frequent name of God in the OT is YHWH, which we first find in Exodus 3, when God is speaking to Moses through the burning bush. We can understand this "angel of the LORD" as God the Son, or the pre-incarnate Jesus, speaking to Moses, revealing His own holy name "YHWH".
YHWH is translated into English as "I AM", but this is no ordinary "I am" that we use, but a personal and divine name, and a name that holds a lot of meaning. It implies that God is the one and only God and that He is almighty and uncreated. John, in his Gospel account, uses this personal name of God and applies it to Jesus, and it's not applied to anyone else but God in all of the Bible. This is not too apparent in English, but in its original language, it's carefully constructed to illustrate that Jesus is both fully God and fully man, and that there is no other Lord and Saviour but Jesus Christ.

To sum up, it's best said in the prophetic words of Isaiah when He speaks of Jesus:
"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."
Here we see that God is called both a child and a son, and Mighty God and Everlasting Father at the same time. What a great mystery! And that He is our Prince of Peace, working the forgiveness of sins for all who believe in His name. What joy!

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but hopefully this can clarify a bit. Blessings +

Thanks for the in-depth reply! Some of your explanation sounded Unitarian to me (though I could be wrong), so to clarify, do you believe in three divine persons? Thanks!

ewq1938 · Feb 5, 2020

Kilk1 said:
This is why the definition of "God" confuses me. What trait causes multiple divine persons to be one God?

The same way multiple people are one Bride, the Bride of Christ.

chevyontheriver · Feb 5, 2020

Kilk1 said:
This is why the definition of "God" confuses me. What trait causes multiple divine persons to be one God? It isn't mere unity in purpose; else, pagan gods that were united would be one god. While I'm not denying Trinitarianism, it doesn't make sense to me because of this.

Well, it IS a mystery. We can say a few positive things about the Trinity, but a lot of it is by analogy. We can say some of what the Trinity is not. We can't be comprehensive, because we are finite and God is infinite.

Interesting. I haven't thought much about it before, but if Jesus calls Himself YHWH, that's significant. I think I'm going to do some study on John 8:58. Thank you!

Look at all the various I AM statements in John. There are many. Very instructive.

Norbert L · Feb 5, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Hello. While I don't deny the Trinity, I've struggled for a while to understand it. It's hard for me to see how to reconcile passages that say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God while at the same time being faithful to the passages saying that God is one (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10). I think the reason I struggle could be resolved if I better understood what "one God" meant. These are my questions:

1. What is the definition of God as used in the Bible?
2. Since the Trinity teaches one God but three divine persons, what would more than one God look like, if not more than one divine person?
3. While we're at it, is Jesus ever called Jehovah (Hebrew, "YHWH")?

Thanks in advance for the help!

You could look at what one God meant to the people in the OT and in a number of places He appears it certainly is NOT describing monotheism. Here's a very short explanation in video format. If you're interested there are longer ones that go far more in depth I could link to if you like.

Daniel9v9 · Feb 5, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Thanks for the in-depth reply! Some of your explanation sounded Unitarian to me (though I could be wrong), so to clarify, do you believe in three divine persons? Thanks!

No, I'm orthodox Lutheran, so most certainly not Unitarian or anything approaching it! I believe in the three ecumenical creeds, which includes the Athanasian Creed, which is sternly against Unitarianism. Needless to say, I believe in God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

What in the explanation sounds Unitarian? Maybe I can clarify.

AvgJoe · Feb 6, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Sorry for the late reply, and thanks for all the information! One thing I would like to ask is how we know that the Trinity is "1 What & 3 Whos."

1 What/Essence = 1 God, which is confirmed in Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

3 Whos/Persons = Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

God exists as a unity of three distinct Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each Person has a will, speaks and loves (verses shown on the chart in my previous post), etc, which are all characteristics of personhood.

Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. The Father is not the same person as the Son, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit, and who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but only one God.

Kilk1 said:
Isn't God a "who" in Scripture (e.g., Ex. 3:14)?

God is definitely a "Who" in Scripture, and especially in your example, Exodus 3:14, God said that his name is "I AM WHO I AM", and God told Moses to tell the children of Israel that, "I AM has sent me to you." We know that this Who, was the preincarnate Jesus.

In John 8:56-59, the Pharisees’ asked Jesus, “Who do you think you are?” Jesus replied, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds”. The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.

Kilk1 · Feb 6, 2020

Norbert L said:
You could look at what one God meant to the people in the OT and in a number of places He appears it certainly is NOT describing monotheism. Here's a very short explanation in video format. If you're interested there are longer ones that go far more in depth I could link to if you like.

I watched the video. But if this goes against monotheism, the position that there's one God, then how do we interpret passages such as Deuteronomy 6:4, which says, "The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" Also, Isaiah 43:10 says, "'You are My witnesses,' says the LORD, 'And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.'"

Kilk1 · Feb 6, 2020

ewq1938 said:
The same way multiple people are one Bride, the Bride of Christ.

You know, that's interesting! It's true that Christians are all one bride. And yet, each Christian is one person. Is that the idea?

Kilk1 · Feb 6, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Well, it IS a mystery. We can say a few positive things about the Trinity, but a lot of it is by analogy. We can say some of what the Trinity is not. We can't be comprehensive, because we are finite and God is infinite.

Look at all the various I AM statements in John. There are many. Very instructive.

I'll look into Jesus' "I AM" statements; thank you!

ewq1938 · Feb 6, 2020

Kilk1 said:
You know, that's interesting! It's true that Christians are all one bride. And yet, each Christian is one person. Is that the idea?

Yes. Many can form something which is One. This is how the Trinity works where 3 form One God. So it is the same with the one Wife made up on a great many people, and same with these same many people forming one single body of Christ.

Kilk1 · Feb 6, 2020

Daniel9v9 said:
No, I'm orthodox Lutheran, so most certainly not Unitarian or anything approaching it! I believe in the three ecumenical creeds, which includes the Athanasian Creed, which is sternly against Unitarianism. Needless to say, I believe in God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

What in the explanation sounds Unitarian? Maybe I can clarify.

When you said that we should think of God as being Jesus and when you said that "God is called both a child and a son, and Mighty God and Everlasting Father at the same time," these sounded to me like Unitarian arguments. Sorry for misunderstanding.

Kilk1 · Feb 6, 2020

AvgJoe said:
1 What/Essence = 1 God, which is confirmed in Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5.

3 Whos/Persons = Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

Is there Scriptural support for calling God a "What"? How is this reconciled with the following statement of yours:

AvgJoe said:
God is definitely a "Who" in Scripture, and especially in your example, Exodus 3:14, God said that his name is "I AM WHO I AM", and God told Moses to tell the children of Israel that, "I AM has sent me to you." We know that this Who, was the preincarnate Jesus.

It's hard for me to reconcile this with the above.

AvgJoe said:
In John 8:56-59, the Pharisees’ asked Jesus, “Who do you think you are?” Jesus replied, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds”. The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.

This is something I'm going to need to look into further. Thanks!

Daniel9v9 · Feb 6, 2020

Kilk1 said:
When you said that we should think of God as being Jesus and when you said that "God is called both a child and a son, and Mighty God and Everlasting Father at the same time," these sounded to me like Unitarian arguments. Sorry for misunderstanding.

No problem! Here are three simple references that may help form a better understanding of what is meant:

1. In John 6:46 Jesus says, as the Bible says in many places, that no one* has ever seen God. That is, no one has ever seen the Father, except the Son, who not only sees the Father but is from the Father. Meaning, He is from eternity, yet born of a virgin at the same time.

2. In 1 Timothy 3:16 we read that Jesus is the manifestation of God; He is the visible and tangible God; God in flesh; fully man, fully God. John says of Christ: "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands"

3. In Colossians 2:9 it's written that the whole fullness of deity dwells in Christ bodily. The man Jesus Christ is YHWH. This is why Isaiah says that Jesus is both a child and a son, and Mighty God and Everlasting Father at the same time. He is not saying that the Son is the Father, but prophesying by the revelation of the Holy Spirit that the Messiah is fully man and fully God - that the Son is one with the Father, which is precisely what our Lord Jesus Christ says of Himself: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

* In the Old Testament, there are instances of people seeing God, such as in Genesis 32, Exodus 3 and Judges 13. Bearing in mind the above - that no one has ever seen God - this is no contradiction, but serves to point us to Jesus Christ. The Evangelist John explains that the Son, the Word, is the visible image of God. Whenever read of people seeing God in the OT, it means the Son, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. This is all meant to point us to the mysterious advent of Jesus and the good news of the forgiveness of sins for all who believe in His name.

Hope this helps! Blessings. +

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