Questions about the Trinity

Kilk1 · Jan 30, 2020

Hello. While I don't deny the Trinity, I've struggled for a while to understand it. It's hard for me to see how to reconcile passages that say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God while at the same time being faithful to the passages saying that God is one (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10). I think the reason I struggle could be resolved if I better understood what "one God" meant. These are my questions:

1. What is the definition of God as used in the Bible?
2. Since the Trinity teaches one God but three divine persons, what would more than one God look like, if not more than one divine person?
3. While we're at it, is Jesus ever called Jehovah (Hebrew, "YHWH")?

Thanks in advance for the help!

JackRT · Jan 30, 2020

JackRT · Jan 30, 2020

JackRT · Jan 30, 2020

chevyontheriver · Jan 30, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Hello. While I don't deny the Trinity, I've struggled for a while to understand it. It's hard for me to see how to reconcile passages that say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God while at the same time being faithful to the passages saying that God is one (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10). I think the reason I struggle could be resolved if I better understood what "one God" meant. These are my questions:

1. What is the definition of God as used in the Bible?

The Bible is not a book of systematic theology. God is introduced in the first page of Genesis without definition. The closest the Bible comes to systematic theology is in some of the writings of Paul, but even there it's a mix.

2. Since the Trinity teaches one God but three divine persons, what would more than one God look like, if not more than one divine person?

More than one god would look like the Greco-Roman gods, willfully opposed to each other. In little things that would have amplified to infinite differences.

3. While we're at it, is Jesus ever called Jehovah (Hebrew, "YHWH")?

Essentially yes. All of the 'I Am' statements in the gospel of John were understood by his hearers to be claims to divinity.

Daniel9v9 · Jan 30, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Hello. While I don't deny the Trinity, I've struggled for a while to understand it. It's hard for me to see how to reconcile passages that say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God while at the same time being faithful to the passages saying that God is one (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10). I think the reason I struggle could be resolved if I better understood what "one God" meant. These are my questions:

1. What is the definition of God as used in the Bible?
2. Since the Trinity teaches one God but three divine persons, what would more than one God look like, if not more than one divine person?
3. While we're at it, is Jesus ever called Jehovah (Hebrew, "YHWH")?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Well, first of all, God's nature is too great for us to comprehend, so don't feel bad for not understanding it. No one can! We can't know everything about God, but we can only know the things that He has chosen to reveal to us, through prophets and apostles and His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In a word, God is incomprehensible but true.

1. It's a loaded question, but very simply, I'd say that God is the Uncreated One, whereas everything else is part of His creation. God is almighty and not bound by anything; He is outside of time and space, yet, in the person of Christ, He was pleased to dwell with us. It's a great mystery.

2. When we think of God, we should think of Jesus Christ, as He is the manifestation of God.

3. Yes, Christ is referred to as YHWH in Scriptures, and Christ says of Himself on several occasions, "I AM". That is the English translation of YHWH.

Paul spoke both Hebrew and Greek (Acts 21-22) - perhaps Aramaic and some Latin too. He wrote his epistles in Greek and would have been familiar with both the Hebrew and Greek OT. In the LXX (the Greek OT) "Kyrios" is used in place of YHWH. So, for example, when Paul referenced Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:9-13 and applies this "Kyrios" to Jesus, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew YHWH (which he undoubtedly knew), he is calling Jesus YHWH. In other words, he identifies Jesus as God in flesh. This agrees with what John says: "The Word became flesh".

Jesus calls Himself YHWH and John makes a big deal out of this in his Gospel account. For example, when Christ says: "Before Abraham was, I AM" - He's saying He existed before Abraham as none other than God from eternity. The "I AM" here is "YHWH". We can also see it in "I AM the bread of life", "I AM the light of the world" and "I AM the door" etc. And at the betrayal and arrest of Jesus, He asked "Whom do you seek?", and they say "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus then replies with "I am he (I AM)", and it's written that they "drew back and fell to the ground." Notice God's sovereignty and humility at work at the same time here. Also, when Christ walks on water and His disciples see Him, they were afraid, but Jesus tells them "It is I (I AM); do not be afraid".

So there's great joy in knowing that God is not an absent God, but is truly Immanuel - God with us.

Aussie Pete · Jan 30, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Hello. While I don't deny the Trinity, I've struggled for a while to understand it. It's hard for me to see how to reconcile passages that say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God while at the same time being faithful to the passages saying that God is one (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10). I think the reason I struggle could be resolved if I better understood what "one God" meant. These are my questions:

1. What is the definition of God as used in the Bible?
2. Since the Trinity teaches one God but three divine persons, what would more than one God look like, if not more than one divine person?
3. While we're at it, is Jesus ever called Jehovah (Hebrew, "YHWH")?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Good questions that have troubled theologians for 2,000 years.
1. God describes Himself in many ways. To Moses, He was simply, "I Am". To Israel, He used a number of names - Healer, Provider, Shield, Lord God Almighty, Banner, Redeemer, Shepherd. Someone came up with 100 names for God. They describe who God is.
2. Pass
3. Lord Jesus declared, "Before Abraham was, I Am". He also made claims that could only be made by God - "I Am the Good Shepherd", for example. His declarations led to charges of blasphemy. Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and my God".

Tra Phull · Jan 30, 2020

( I think JackRT posted in trinity )

He is correct about PERSONA being a mask in Greco-Roman theatre - in days before amplifiers, the mask had a built in megaphone - it was much larger than the head of the actor, and gave FEATURES of person being portrayed, always a male actor in early days of Greek drama, no female actresses, so a guy with a huge mask with built-in megaphone and feminine features portrayed a female character.

We must not slip into MODALISM - the passage about Jesus' baptism shows Father, Son and Holy Spirit all 3 doing different things at the same time; real modalism would have 1 God switching roles and never all 3 persons acting at the same time.

Beware of using THE JOHANNINE COMMA as a proof of Trinity. Non-Trinnies will SQUEAL LIKE PIGS that 1 John 5:7 is not in some early manuscripts, and sound their trumpets that Trinity is false !!

It's not false, a complicated doctrine to understand, perhaps, but so is Jesus being truly God and truly Man.

Non-trinnies, Not-Godders, and Not-Man'ers have spouted their doctrines for centuries, but Nicene Creed and Council of Chalcedon affirm Trinitarian God and dual nature of Christ.

No one ever said Trinity and Hypostatic Union were simple things to understand. God's ways and thoughts are higher than ours.

According to C.F. rules, if you don't adhere to Nicene Creed - you be hairy-tick - you be no Christian

Non-Chalcedonians is more a grey area, some Eastern Orthodox don't buy into all of Chalcedonian definition.

Tra Phull · Jan 30, 2020

Good stuff in this thread by all !!

Jeshu · Jan 30, 2020

i think that Trinity thinking displays God as Father Son and Holy Spirit - take John 14:23-26 for example. The interesting thing is that the Holy Spirit always brings us Jesus while Jesus always brings us to The Father before all is well with a soul. See Revelation 1-4 for example.

Furthermore Jesus Himself tells us that the Father was greater than Him but we also know that He was in Father's glory before He came to This earth.

Also Colossians 1:15-23 paints Jesus' Victory as total dominion over all authorities in Heaven as well as on this world as well as underneath the this world. A dominion that is completely equal to Godhood, yet indeed Paul teaches that God's fullness dwelt in Him.

We also know from 1 Corinthians 15:28 that in The End Jesus will hand everything over to the Father. So He maybe all in all in again in fullness.

Oneness of mind, will, Spirit and reality typifies the concept of the Trinity.

No Jesus is not called YHWH but He does testify that He is The Son of YHWH, making Himself equal to God, for which the leaders of Israel killed Him. Matthew 26:63-64

Tra Phull · Jan 30, 2020

I think JEHOVAH is just a made-up word, putting consonants in Yahweh where they ain't.

God is Yahweh and Elohim in Hebrew - Elohim is plural in form, but perhaps Trinitarians stretch the point that that proves Trinity in Genesis. But it might be.

Tra Phull · Jan 30, 2020

The I AM statements were certainly understood by Jesus' enemies to be Him saying He was Yahweh - they killed Him for it.

While made flesh, His humanity was REAL, and still is. It was not a piece of theatre, despite theatre lending a term like PERSONAE to aid comprehension in explaining this.

While made flesh, Christ did say Father was greater than Him; He also said "I and my Father are one"

I think saying only the Father, not even the Son, knows the day and hour, I think that refers to Jesus prior to glorification. I think the Son does know now.

AvgJoe · Jan 30, 2020

Kilk1 said:
Hello. While I don't deny the Trinity, I've struggled for a while to understand it. It's hard for me to see how to reconcile passages that say the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God while at the same time being faithful to the passages saying that God is one (e.g., Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10). I think the reason I struggle could be resolved if I better understood what "one God" meant. These are my questions:

1. What is the definition of God as used in the Bible?
2. Since the Trinity teaches one God but three divine persons, what would more than one God look like, if not more than one divine person?
3. While we're at it, is Jesus ever called Jehovah (Hebrew, "YHWH")?

Thanks in advance for the help!

Even with much study, we will never fully grasp the totality of God. The simplest explanation I've ever heard is, the Trinity is "1 What & 3 Whos", that is to say, "1 Essence & 3 Persons".

What God’s Word says about the Trinity:

1) There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians 3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5).

2) The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this passage is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of three distinct Persons in the Trinity.

3) The members of the Trinity are distinguished one from another in various passages. In the Old Testament, “LORD” is distinguished from “Lord” (Genesis 19:24; Hosea 1:4). The LORD has a Son (Psalm 2:7, 12; Proverbs 30:2-4). The Spirit is distinguished from the “LORD” (Numbers 27:18) and from “God” (Psalm 51:10-12). God the Son is distinguished from God the Father (Psalm 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9). In the New Testament, Jesus speaks to the Father about sending a Helper, the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17). This shows that Jesus did not consider Himself to be the Father or the Holy Spirit. Consider also all the other times in the Gospels where Jesus speaks to the Father. Was He speaking to Himself? No. He spoke to another Person in the Trinity—the Father.

4) Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).

5) There is subordination within the Trinity. Scripture shows that the Holy Spirit is subordinate to the Father and the Son, and the Son is subordinate to the Father. This is an internal relationship and does not deny the deity of any Person of the Trinity. This is simply an area which our finite minds cannot understand concerning the infinite God. Concerning the Son see Luke 22:42, John 5:36, John 20:21, and 1 John 4:14. Concerning the Holy Spirit see John 14:16, 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, and especially John 16:13-14.

6) The individual members of the Trinity have different tasks. The Father is the ultimate source or cause of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; Revelation 4:11); divine revelation (Revelation 1:1); salvation (John 3:16-17); and Jesus' human works (John 5:17; 14:10). The Father initiates all of these things.

The Son is the agent through whom the Father does the following works: the creation and maintenance of the universe (1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:3; Colossians 1:16-17); divine revelation (John 1:1, 16:12-15; Matthew 11:27; Revelation 1:1); and salvation (2 Corinthians 5:19; Matthew 1:21; John 4:42). The Father does all these things through the Son, who functions as His agent.

The Holy Spirit is the means by whom the Father does the following works: creation and maintenance of the universe (Genesis 1:2; Job 26:13; Psalm 104:30); divine revelation (John 16:12-15; Ephesians 3:5; 2 Peter 1:21); salvation (John 3:6; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:2); and Jesus' works (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 10:38). Thus, the Father does all these things by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The following chart will help show how the doctrine of the Trinity is systematically derived from Scripture.

The following link, will hopefully, be helpful to you, also~~~> www.gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_sort=0&zoom_query=trinity

Tra Phull · Jan 30, 2020

Romans 1:20 says even the godhead can be comprehended by man

ewq1938 · Jan 30, 2020

Kilk1 said:
3. While we're at it, is Jesus ever called Jehovah (Hebrew, "YHWH")?

He is called Elohim by the Father:

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Paul teaches that the Father identified the Son as God and that the angels worshipped the Son. Only God is worshipped by angels.

Tra Phull · Jan 30, 2020

" by whom also he made the worlds "

Heavy.

And avgjoe's chart is outta sight.

Tra Phull · Jan 30, 2020

Colossians 2:9

Kilk1 · Jan 31, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
The Bible is not a book of systematic theology. God is introduced in the first page of Genesis without definition. The closest the Bible comes to systematic theology is in some of the writings of Paul, but even there it's a mix.

More than one god would look like the Greco-Roman gods, willfully opposed to each other. In little things that would have amplified to infinite differences.

So is the difference between three divine persons that are one God and three (allegedly) divine persons that are three gods is whether they're opposed to each other? Would this mean that if the opposing gods of Greco-Roman fame decided to be united, that this would make them one god? Just making sure I understand your answer correctly.

chevyontheriver said:
Essentially yes. All of the 'I Am' statements in the gospel of John were understood by his hearers to be claims to divinity.

I was specifically wanting the term "YHWH," "Jehovah," or "LORD" (all caps, as the term is sometimes rendered). However, do the terms YHWH and I AM essentially mean the same thing, perhaps?

Kilk1 · Jan 31, 2020

Thanks for your reply!

Daniel9v9 said:
Well, first of all, God's nature is too great for us to comprehend, so don't feel bad for not understanding it. No one can! We can't know everything about God, but we can only know the things that He has chosen to reveal to us, through prophets and apostles and His Son, Jesus Christ, who is fully man and fully God. In a word, God is incomprehensible but true.

1. It's a loaded question, but very simply, I'd say that God is the Uncreated One, whereas everything else is part of His creation. God is almighty and not bound by anything; He is outside of time and space, yet, in the person of Christ, He was pleased to dwell with us. It's a great mystery.

Isaiah 43:10 says, "Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me" (NKJV). If we define God as "Uncreated One," wouldn't this go against there being three Uncreated Ones, because we have an Uncreated One saying none were before Him or after Him?

Daniel9v9 said:
2. When we think of God, we should think of Jesus Christ, as He is the manifestation of God.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand how this answers my question.

Daniel9v9 said:
3. Yes, Christ is referred to as YHWH in Scriptures, and Christ says of Himself on several occasions, "I AM". That is the English translation of YHWH.

Paul spoke both Hebrew and Greek (Acts 21-22) - perhaps Aramaic and some Latin too. He wrote his epistles in Greek and would have been familiar with both the Hebrew and Greek OT. In the LXX (the Greek OT) "Kyrios" is used in place of YHWH. So, for example, when Paul referenced Joel 2:32 in Romans 10:9-13 and applies this "Kyrios" to Jesus, which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew YHWH (which he undoubtedly knew), he is calling Jesus YHWH. In other words, he identifies Jesus as God in flesh. This agrees with what John says: "The Word became flesh".

Jesus calls Himself YHWH and John makes a big deal out of this in his Gospel account. For example, when Christ says: "Before Abraham was, I AM" - He's saying He existed before Abraham as none other than God from eternity. The "I AM" here is "YHWH". We can also see it in "I AM the bread of life", "I AM the light of the world" and "I AM the door" etc. And at the betrayal and arrest of Jesus, He asked "Whom do you seek?", and they say "Jesus of Nazareth." Jesus then replies with "I am he (I AM)", and it's written that they "drew back and fell to the ground." Notice God's sovereignty and humility at work at the same time here. Also, when Christ walks on water and His disciples see Him, they were afraid, but Jesus tells them "It is I (I AM); do not be afraid".

So there's great joy in knowing that God is not an absent God, but is truly Immanuel - God with us.

"I am" is said by many people in the Bible, and we say it every day. How do we know the difference between saying "I AM" as a claim to deity and the normal "I am" as in, "I am hungry"? In other words, how do we know that Jesus saying "I am..." is a claim to be the Great I AM vs. just being coincidental?

While I still have some confusion, thanks for the response!

Kilk1 · Jan 31, 2020

So many replies; thanks, everyone! I'll have to gradually reply to them.

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