The fatal flaw of Universalism

FineLinen

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Robertson Word Pictures Of The N.T.

Of him= ex autou

Through him = di’ autou

Unto him = eiv auton

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta panta) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the

Ex = The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

For ever = eiv touv aiwnav = “For the ages.”

Alford terms this doxology in verses 33-36 “the sublimest apostrophe existing even in the pages of inspiration itself.”
 
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Saint Steven

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Jesus said that hell is real. Please explain how your moral sentiments are greater than his.
My "moral sentiments"?

You didn't really address my post.
If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character? How is that any different?

Saint Steven said:
That's quite a claim from someone who thinks God will torment his enemies in fire and brimstone for all eternity with no hope of escape. Somehow that's not immoral?

We can be pretty certain that no one would choose by their own free will to remain in what you call hell when they can by their own free will choose to leave. How long would it take you to decide?
 
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Der Alte

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My "moral sentiments"?
You didn't really address my post.
If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character? How is that any different?
Saint Steven said:
That's quite a claim from someone who thinks God will torment his enemies in fire and brimstone for all eternity with no hope of escape. Somehow that's not immoral?
We can be pretty certain that no one would choose by their own free will to remain in what you call hell when they can by their own free will choose to leave. How long would it take you to decide?
We cannot compare anything that imperfect man does, thinks etc. with God. We do not determine what is right, just, acceptable etc. for God to do.
If a man set fire to a town and killed many people it would be a crime but God did that when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains with fire.
 
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Lazarus Short

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We cannot compare anything that imperfect man does, thinks etc. with God. We do not determine what is right, just, acceptable etc. for God to do.
If a man set fire to a town and killed many people it would be a crime but God did that when He destroyed Sodom, Gomorrah and the cities of the plains with fire.

God also stated later that He would restore the fortunes of those people. It's no big deal with God for the exact reason that He is going to resurrect them in the future.

Ezekiel 16:53 "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:"
 
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Der Alte

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God also stated later that He would restore the fortunes of those people. It's no big deal with God for the exact reason that He is going to resurrect them in the future.
Ezekiel 16:53 "When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:"
Not sure how this responds to my post. If at all.
 
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Hell is not a firey torture chamber. It's a place of eternal separation from God.

So you're not saying the lake of fire or Gehenna is hell? In that case remind us, if you'd be so kind, of the scriptures on which this eschatological doctrine of 'eternal separation' is based, and to which 'hell' you refer.
 
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Perhaps you should pay more attention to what I write instead of trying to play gotcha. I said "There was no fiery lake for Moses." I have previously posted quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encylopedia Judaica and the Talmud documenting that in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of eternal fiery punishment and they called it both Ge Hinnom and Sheol.

You might care to straighten Qwerty out on this one der Alter, because s/he's in your camp but doesn't believe scripture teaches fiery hell, only 'eternal separation'.

As for your view, we've been over this, the Jeremiah and Kings references to the Valley of Ge'Hinnom relate to the satanic idolatrous child sacrifices to which God expresses surprise and disgust.

The fact the oral tradition developed this into a full-blown eschatological doctrine was precisely what Jesus took aim at in the Gospels. Jesus:
  1. disabused the disciples of the notion that God would utterly destroy body and soul in Gehenna fire (Mt 10:28-31)
  2. taught that the wormy fire of Gehenna was necessary as 'salt' for all to reach mutual peace (he was, after all, the fulfilment of the brazen serpent type) - (see Mk 9:47-50)
  3. warned the Jewish rich man he would end up in Hades if he didn't stop shutting the gentile beggar out (Lk 16:19-31)
  4. criticised and issued a dire warning to the Pharisees for their false teachings making proselytes 'sons of Gehenna' (Mt 23:15)
So yes, Jesus does refer to 'hell' a lot, and he's referencing the oral tradition that grew out of the Tanakh, but he's doing it to CORRECT errors of an idolatrous and pagan variety - the EXACT SAME errors that YOU and your ilk make right up to this very moment, der Alter.

It boggles my mind that you can't or won't see it. I suspect you may be on the receiving end of the strong delusion, and believe me I take no joy in that.
 
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Der Alte

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You might care to straighten Qwerty out on this one der Alter, because s/he's in your camp but doesn't believe scripture teaches fiery hell, only 'eternal separation'.
I might take that up at the proper time.
As for your view, we've been over this, the Jeremiah and Kings references to the Valley of Ge'Hinnom relate to the satanic idolatrous child sacrifices to which God expresses surprise and disgust.
No problem here.

The fact the oral tradition developed this into a full-blown eschatological doctrine was precisely what Jesus took aim at in the Gospels. Jesus:
disabused the disciples of the notion that God would utterly destroy body and soul in Gehenna fire (Mt 10:28-31)
Nonsense! I thought you believed in UR this verse contradicts UR. What God created He certainly can destroy but show me one verse, 2 or more would better, that states even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell. Waiting.

Mat 10:28
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
taught that the wormy fire of Gehenna was necessary as 'salt' for all to reach mutual peace (he was, after all, the fulfilment of the brazen serpent type) - (see Mk 9:47-50)
More nonsense. Reading your own assumptions/presuppositions into the text.

John Gill Commentary on the whole Bible.
For every one shall be salted with fire,.... That is every one of those that transgress the law of God, offend any that, believe in Christ, retain their sins, and sinful companions; every one of them that are cast into hell, where the worm of conscience is always gnawing, and the fire of divine wrath is always burning, with that fire every one of them shall be salted: that fire shall be to them, what salt is to flesh; as that keeps flesh from putrefaction and corruption, so the fire of hell, as it will burn, torture, and distress rebellious sinners, it will preserve them in their beings; they shall not be consumed by it, but continued in it: so that these words are a reason of the former, showing and proving, that the soul in torment shall never die, or lose any of its powers and faculties; and particularly, not its gnawing, torturing conscience; and that the fire of hell is inextinguishable; for though sinners will be inexpressibly tormented in it, they will not be consumed by it; but the smoke of their torments shall ascend for ever and ever; and that they will be so far from being annihilated by the fire of hell, that they shall be preserved in their beings in it, as flesh is preserved by salt:
warned the Jewish rich man he would end up in Hades if he didn't stop shutting the gentile beggar out (Lk 16:19-31)
Jesus did NOT warn the rich man he would end up in hell if... The rich man was already dead and in hell. And Abraham told the man that he could not get out. I wonder why Abraham did not tell the rich man he would eventually be saved? OBTW Do you know what sin(s) the rich man committed? Deuteronomy 15:7, Leviticus 25:35

criticised and issued a dire warning to the Pharisees for their false teachings making proselytes 'sons of Gehenna' (Mt 23:15)
How is that an argument against hell?

So yes, Jesus does refer to 'hell' a lot, and he's referencing the oral tradition that grew out of the Tanakh, but he's doing it to CORRECT errors of an idolatrous and pagan variety - the EXACT SAME errors that YOU and your ilk make right up to this very moment, der Alter.
Jesus criticized many practices of the Jewish leaders but He never once criticized the, then existing, belief in hell. In fact, what Jesus taught about "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm never dies,""eternal punishment,""outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth" and a fate worse than death supported the then existing belief in hell. Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 18:6, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 26:24, Luke 10:12

It boggles my mind that you can't or won't see it. I suspect you may be on the receiving end of the strong delusion, and believe me I take no joy in that
Unlike you I don't bring indoctrinated assumptions/presupposition to the Bible. I did not grow up in the church I did not become a Christian until my mid-20s. I have questioned everything from day one.
 
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Qwertyui0p

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My "moral sentiments"?

You didn't really address my post.
If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character? How is that any different?

Saint Steven said:
That's quite a claim from someone who thinks God will torment his enemies in fire and brimstone for all eternity with no hope of escape. Somehow that's not immoral?

We can be pretty certain that no one would choose by their own free will to remain in what you call hell when they can by their own free will choose to leave. How long would it take you to decide?
Okay, that wasn't adressing your post. I will do so now.
Hell is not a torture chamber. To quote Moreland again: 'God is the most generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos. He has made us with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to him and others... And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made-a purpose, the way, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way-then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along our lives, which is separation from him... One more point it's wrong to think that God is simply a loving being, especially if you mean loving in the sense most Americans use the word today. Yes, God is a compassionate being, but he's also a jut, moral, and pure being. So God's decision is not based on modern American sentimentalism. This is one of the reasons why people have never had a problem with the idea of hell until modern times.'
My question was badly worded, but please respond. Jesus didn't see hell as immoral.
 
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FineLinen

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Okay, that wasn't adressing your post. I will do so now.
Hell is not a torture chamber. To quote Moreland again: 'God is the most generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos. He has made us with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to him and others... And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made-a purpose, the way, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way-then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along our lives, which is separation from him... One more point it's wrong to think that God is simply a loving being, especially if you mean loving in the sense most Americans use the word today. Yes, God is a compassionate being, but he's also a jut, moral, and pure being. So God's decision is not based on modern American sentimentalism. This is one of the reasons why people have never had a problem with the idea of hell until modern times.'
My question was badly worded, but please respond. Jesus didn't see hell as immoral.

Dear Gwerty:

Nonsense ! ! !

The most loving Being in the universe is Love, & love never fails, EVER!

I have a gigantic problem with the most loving Being failing to bring every last child of His (all little wills) to His point of view. If it requires 70 X 7 + 1 attempts, it shall be done, but in the end His viewpoint is achieved.

Welcome to the just, moral & pure equation of Father> > >

Adam1 = "many made sinners."

Last Adam = "many made righteous."

Many = many > > all = all > > polus = polus.

 
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FineLinen

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"I have a word for you. I know your whole life story. I know every skeleton in your closet. I know every moment of sin, shame, dishonesty and degraded love that has darkened your past. Right now I know your shallow faith, your feeble prayer life, your inconsistent discipleship. And my word is this: I dare you to trust that I love you just as you are, and not as you should be. Because you’re never going to be as you should be." -Brennan Manning-
 
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Saint Steven

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Okay, that wasn't adressing your post. I will do so now.
Hell is not a torture chamber. To quote Moreland again: 'God is the most generous, loving, wonderful, attractive being in the cosmos. He has made us with free will and he has made us for a purpose: to relate lovingly to him and others... And if we fail over and over again to live for the purpose for which we were made-a purpose, the way, which would allow us to flourish more than living any other way-then God will have absolutely no choice but to give us what we've asked for all along our lives, which is separation from him... One more point it's wrong to think that God is simply a loving being, especially if you mean loving in the sense most Americans use the word today. Yes, God is a compassionate being, but he's also a jut, moral, and pure being. So God's decision is not based on modern American sentimentalism. This is one of the reasons why people have never had a problem with the idea of hell until modern times.'
My question was badly worded, but please respond. Jesus didn't see hell as immoral.
1) You shouldn't assume that every poster is American.
2) You shouldn't assume that our beliefs are based on "moral sentiments".
3) How is a forever burning hell with no hope of escape not a torture chamber?
4) Your Moreland quote is the typical Damnationist cop-out. Blame it on the victims.
5) There is nothing just about endless/pointless punishment with no purpose of correction.
6) The western/Latin church gave us our Bible. The eastern church was primarily Universalist. (believed in the ultimate restoration of all creation) Therefore, not an invention of modern times.
7) All three doctrinal views of the final judgment have biblical support.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Restorationism

Qwertyui0p said:
Jesus said that hell is real. Please explain how your moral sentiments are greater than his.
 
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No problem here.

I think my heart just skipped a beat! Much rejoicing in heaven.

Nonsense! I thought you believed in UR this verse contradicts UR.

If you read the entire passage, where our Lord continues to reassure the disciples that the Father has every hair on our heads numbered, you'd understand that Jesus' treatment of the subject is essentially 'God can do it, but He won't coz He loves you too much.'

What God created He certainly can destroy but show me one verse, 2 or more would better, that states even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell.

I can't, because there aren't, because the Biblical 'hell' as you quaintly refer to it, is for restoration not damnation.

Jesus did NOT warn the rich man he would end up in hell if... The rich man was already dead and in hell.

Jesus was warning the Pharisees that their exclusionary practices would land them in trouble with God.

I wonder why Abraham did not tell the rich man he would eventually be saved?

He didn't need to. We, OTOH, have Rev 20:13 which tells us Hades gives up its dead for judgment. And that's Hades the place not the hungry horse demon btw smh.

OBTW Do you know what sin(s) the rich man committed? Deuteronomy 15:7, Leviticus 25:35

Thank you der Alter. As we know all those particulars in Deuteronomy find their apotheosis in Christ, who fulfills the law by putting the principle of 'love thy neighbour' into the heart. That's the sin in the Christian sense I suggest.

How is that an argument against hell?

It's an argument that loveless hypocrisy may well backfire.

Jesus criticized many practices of the Jewish leaders but He never once criticized the, then existing, belief in hell.

He doesn't reject the existence of Gehenna, but instead reveals the truth that Gehenna is a place where God can smash you, but he won't because He loves you, and Gehenna fire is 'salt' to be exchanged in aid of peaceable relations amongst brethren.

In fact, what Jesus taught about "hell where the fire is not quenched and their worm never dies,"

I just showed you how he deals with the undying worms.

"outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"

So is it fire or the darkness outside the party in the temple.

a fate worse than death supported the then existing belief in hell. Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:43-48, Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 18:6, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 26:24, Luke 10:12

I sometimes wonder if there could be a fate worse than prolonging this conversation!

Unlike you I don't bring indoctrinated assumptions/presupposition to the Bible. I did not grow up in the church I did not become a Christian until my mid-20s. I have questioned everything from day one.

Congratulations, and I'm trying not to be flattered by the fact you think I grew up in church. And how were you saved, der Alter?
 
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Der Alte

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I think my heart just skipped a beat! Much rejoicing in heaven.
Don't skip too many beats, they call that cardiac arrest.
If you read the entire passage, where our Lord continues to reassure the disciples that the Father has every hair on our heads numbered, you'd understand that Jesus' treatment of the subject is essentially 'God can do it, but He won't coz He loves you too much.'
Right about here is where you should quote what it is you want me to see. I'm not a mind reader.

I can't, because there aren't, because the Biblical 'hell' as you quaintly refer to it, is for restoration not damnation.
Assumption /presuppositions. Not one single verse says that.

Jesus was warning the Pharisees that their exclusionary practices would land them in trouble with God.
Changing horses in the middle of the stream, before you said Jesus was warning the rich man. Google rich man and Lazarus and you will find dozens of different versions of what the story "really means." All of the ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.
He didn't need to. We, OTOH, have Rev 20:13 which tells us Hades gives up its dead for judgment. And that's Hades the place not the hungry horse demon btw smh.
So Abraham told the rich man he could not leave hell but somehow you think Rev 20:13 saves the day. The rich guy had never read Rev. and never would so Abraham, actually Jesus, left him with no hope.
Thank you der Alter. As we know all those particulars in Deuteronomy find their apotheosis in Christ, who fulfills the law by putting the principle of 'love thy neighbour' into the heart. That's the sin in the Christian sense I suggest.
You didn't even read the verses I cited. They have nothing to do with any imaginary apotheosis. The rich man had committed actual sins Abraham/Jesus told him he could not leave the place where he was being tormented. Not in Luke or any other book.

It's an argument that loveless hypocrisy may well backfire.
Explain?
He doesn't reject the existence of Gehenna, but instead reveals the truth that Gehenna is a place where God can smash you, but he won't because He loves you, and Gehenna fire is 'salt' to be exchanged in aid of peaceable relations amongst brethren.
Rubbish. Jesus does no such thing. Bits and pieces of different verses thrown together out-of-context.

I just showed you how he deals with the undying worms.
Rubbish. You gave your unsupported opinion about worms.
So is it fire or the darkness outside the party in the temple.
What is your opinion?

I sometimes wonder if there could be a fate worse than prolonging this conversation!
As long as UR-ites spread their false doctrine.

Congratulations, and I'm trying not to be flattered by the fact you think I grew up in church. And how were you saved, der Alter?
Driving down a street of a small town in Texas, while in flight school, prior to going to Viet Nam.
 
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Kolasis aionion

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement)

The word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners.

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

Concerning the duration of kolasis (literally - corrective punishment), Matt. 25:46 says (KJV),

“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

Scarlett’s New Testament written in 1792 has “aeonian punishment” in place to “everlasting punishment.”

“And these will go away into aeonian punishment: but the righteous into aeonian life.”

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson written in 1884 renders Matt. 25:46:

“And these shall go away into aeonian chastisement, and the just into aeonian life.”

Young’s Literal Translation first published in 1898 and reprinted many times since uses the following words:

“And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.”

Professor Young also compiled Young’s Concordance, where one can check the translation of each Hebrew or Greek word as translated in the KJV.

The Twentieth Century New Testament first printed in the year 1900 has:

“And these last will go away ‘into aeonian punishment,’ but the righteous ‘into aeonian life.’”

The Holy Bible in Modern English by Ferrar Fenton first published in 1903 gives the rendering:

"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life.

The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. Weymouth, says:

“And these shall go away into punishment of the ages, but the righteous into life of the ages.”

Dr. Weymouth most frequently adopts such terms as “life of the ages,” “fire of the ages;” and in Rev. 14:6, “The good news of the ages.”

It is a matter to regret that the editors of the most recent edition of Dr. Weymouth’s version have reverted to the KJV renderings for the passages containing the Greek word aion, eon, or age.

The Western New Testament published in 1926 renders Matt. 25:46 as follows:

“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.”

The translation, however, has a footnote on Matthew 21:19 on the word “forever” which is the same word for “eternal” which says: "Literally, for the age.”

Clementson’s The New Testament (1938) shows,

“And these shall go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life.”

Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott (1942 edition) translates the verse,

“And these shall go forth to the aionian cutting-off; but the righteous to aionian life.”

It should be noted that the “cutting-off” refers to pruning a fruit tree to make it bear more fruit.

The idea behind the word is not destructive but productive! Had Jesus wanted to emphasize a destructive end, He would have used the word “timoria.”

The Concordant Version (1930):

“And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.”

The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed printed in 1958 says:

“And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life.”

Joseph B. Rotherham, in his Emphasized Bible (1959), translates this verse,

“and these shall go away into age-abiding correction, but the righteous into age-abiding life.”

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible copyrighted in 1976

has “age-abiding correction” instead of “everlasting punishment.”

Jonathan Mitchell’s N.T.Translation

"And so, these folks will be going off into an eonian pruning (a lopping-off which lasts for an undetermined length of time; an age-lasting correction; a pruning which has its source and character in the Age), yet the fair and just folks who are in right relationship and are in accord with the Way pointed out [go off] into eonian life (life which has it source and character in the Age; life pertaining to the Age)”.

Even some King James Study Bibles will show the reader in the margins or appendixes that the King’s translators were incorrect in their rendering of "eternal punishment.”

The great Companion Bible by Dr. Bullinger is an example of that.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46

“The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
Kolasis aionion
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement)
The word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God’s punishment is always for man’s cure.”..
No kolasis does NOT always mean remedial punishment.
Translations are irrelevant unless the scholar shows clear grammatical, lexical, historical evidence why he chose to translate a word differently than the major versions as the scholars who compiled and wrote the BDAG, formerly BAGD. Here is the definition of kolasis from BDAG. Blue highlights indicate the 60+ historical sources the scholars consulted .

κόλασις, εως, ἡ (s. prec. three entries; ‘punishment, chastisement’ so Hippocr.+; Diod S 1, 77, 9; 4, 44, 3; Aelian, VH 7, 15; SIG2 680, 13; LXX; TestAbr, Test12Patr, ApcEsdr, ApcSed; AscIs 3:13; Philo, Leg. ad Gai. 7, Mos. 1, 96; Jos., Ant. 17, 164; SibOr 5, 388; Ar. [Milne 76, 43]; Just.)
infliction of suffering or pain in chastisement, punishment so lit. κ. ὑπομένειν undergo punishment Ox 840, 6; δειναὶ κ. (4 Macc 8:9) MPol 2:4; ἡ ἐπίμονος κ. long-continued torture ibid. Of the martyrdom of Jesus (Orig., C. Cels. 1, 48, 95; 8, 43, 12) PtK 4 p. 15, 34. The smelling of the odor arising fr. sacrifices by polytheists ironically described as punishment, injury (s. κολάζω) Dg 2:9.
transcendent retribution, punishment (ApcSed 4:1 κόλασις καὶ πῦρ ἐστιν ἡ παίδευσίς σου.— Diod S 3, 61, 5; 16, 61, 1; Epict. 3, 11, 1; Dio Chrys. 80 [30], 12; 2 Macc 4:38 al. in LXX; Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 55; 2, 196; Jos., Ant. 1, 60 al.; Just.; Did., Gen., 115, 28; 158, 10) ApcPt 17:32; w. αἰκισμός 1 Cl 11:1. Of eternal punishment (w. θάνατος) Dg 9:2 (Diod S 8, 15, 1 κ. ἀθάνατος). Of hell: τόπος κολάσεως ApcPt 6:21 (Simplicius in Epict. p. 13, 1 εἰς ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον αἱ κολάσεως δεόμεναι ψυχαὶ καταπέμπονται); ἐν τῇ κ. ἐκείνῃ 10:25; ibid. ἐφορῶσαι τὴν κ. ἐκείνων (cp. ApcEsdr 5:10 p. 30, 2 Tdf. ἐν τῇ κ.). ἐκ τῆς κ. ApcPt Rainer (cp. ἐκ τὴν κ. ApcSed 8:12a; εἰς τὴν κ. 12b and TestAbr B 11 p. 116, 10 [Stone p. 80]). ἀπέρχεσθαι εἰς κ. αἰώνιον go away into eternal punishment Mt 25:46 (οἱ τῆς κ. ἄξιοι ἀπελεύσονται εἰς αὐτήν Iren. 2, 33, 5 [Harv. I 380, 8]; κ. αἰώνιον as TestAbr A 11 p. 90, 7f [Stone p. 28]; TestReub 5:5; TestGad 7:5; Just., A I, 8, 4; D. 117, 3; Celsus 8, 48; pl. Theoph. Ant. 1, 14 [p. 90, 13]). ῥύεσθαι ἐκ τῆς αἰωνίου κ. rescue fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7. τὴν αἰώνιον κ. ἐξαγοράζεσθαι buy one’s freedom fr. eternal pun. MPol 2:3 v.l. κακαὶ κ. τοῦ διαβόλου IRo 5:3. κ. τινος punishment for someth. (Ezk 14:3, 7; 18:30; Philo, Fuga 65 ἁμαρτημάτων κ.) ἔχειν κόλασίν τινα τῆς πονηρίας αὐτοῦ Hs 9, 18, 1. ἀναπαύστως ἕξουσιν τὴν κ. they will suffer unending punishment ApcPt Bodl. 9–12. ὁ φόβος κόλασιν ἔχει fear has to do with punishment 1J 4:18 (cp. Philo, In Flacc. 96 φόβος κολάσεως).—M-M. TW.[1][1] Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000).
A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 555). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Here is how several ECF describe eternal punishment. Some are listed above.
Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment"
• (Second Clement ibid., 17:7)
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’".
Ignatius of Antioch[a student of John]
"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
Justin Martyr
"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments"
• (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire"
• (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
Mathetes
"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
Athenagoras
"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
Theophilus of Antioch
"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
Irenaeus[Student of Polycarp a student of John]
"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
Tertullian
"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending"
• (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
Hippolytus
"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
Minucius Felix
"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
Cyprian of Carthage
"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
Lactantius
"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. … Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).





 
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Here is how the NT describes aionios.
In twenty four [24] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
.....List of verses:
1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26, John 3:36, John 4:14, John 6:27,
.....In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.
.....In 10 of these verses Jesus has defined “aionios” as eternal. In 8 verses Paul has defined “aionios” as eternal.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
[3]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house [body] with a house [body] which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
[8] 1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, which is is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
[Continued next post-character limits]
 
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[Previous post continued]
[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
[15]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
[17] John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[18] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
[19]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
[20]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
[21]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
[22] John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
In this verse aionios life is contrasted with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
[23] John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse aionios is contrasted with “shall never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[24]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
In this verse “aionios meat” is contrasted with “meat that perishes” .” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
[25]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.
 
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Don't skip too many beats, they call that cardiac arrest.

Thanks for your heartfelt words of wisdom.

Right about here is where you should quote what it is you want me to see. I'm not a mind reader.

Didn't the 'clues' get you there?

"Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows. (Mt 10:29-31)

Even a birdbrain like me can get that Jesus is here reassuring the disciples that God won't destroy their body and souls in hell.

Assumption /presuppositions. Not one single verse says that.

You are correct, plenty do. We've been over them.

Changing horses in the middle of the stream, before you said Jesus was warning the rich man. Google rich man and Lazarus and you will find dozens of different versions of what the story "really means." All of the ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual.

Lazarus was factual but the rich man was a plot device imho.

You didn't even read the verses I cited. They have nothing to do with any imaginary apotheosis.

I did and they do. I really don't see the issue in converting 'old covenant' laws to 'new covenant' grace teaching. Not taking in the stranger is just an incidence of failing to love one's neighbour. It's another no-birdbrainer.

Not in Luke or any other book.

He's encased in Luke 16 for eternity. Like the Shrewd Manager.

The rich guy had never read Rev. and never would so Abraham, actually Jesus, left him with no hope.

That should be a lesson to the Pharisees Jesus was trying to get through to. Sadly they were locked into some legalistic mindset and couldn't see the forest for the trees. Hopeless cases, know what I mean?


The Pharisees were packing their bags for heaven, Jesus flipped them.

Rubbish. Jesus does no such thing. Bits and pieces of different verses thrown together out-of-context.

Mark 9:47-50:
"If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, where ‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’ "For everyone will be salted with fire. "Salt is good; but if the salt becomes unsalty, with what will you make it salty again? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

In context, in, in, IN context. Again, Jesus shows us the fire will salt and salt is good. If A (the fire) causes B (the salting) and B (the salt) is good, then A (the fire) is good. Capisce?

Rubbish. You gave your unsupported opinion about worms.

As above, the fire is for good. So if the worms are of the fire, then they are also for the good. We're doing 'reason'.

What is your opinion?

The fire and the darkness are different.

As long as UR-ites spread their false doctrine.

It burns, it burns!! Auto-da-fe, der Alter style.

Driving down a street of a small town in Texas, while in flight school, prior to going to Viet Nam.

So what did you experience then?
 
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