Pretrib Discussion

Biblewriter · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?
11. Where is "Jacob's trouble" mentioned in Daniel 9?

This is nothing but a flailing attempt to defend an indefensible argument. Your mantra of “in Daniel 9?” Is wholly immaterial. If the scriptures say something in one place, whether or not they say it somewhere else is trivial.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Biblewriter said:
This is nothing but a flailing attempt to defend an indefensible argument. Your mantra of “in Daniel 9?” Is wholly immaterial. If the scriptures say something in one place, whether or not they say it somewhere else is trivial.

If it is not in Daniel 9, where is this taught elsewhere in Scripture?

Biblewriter · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
If Pretrib was in Daniel 9 you would have presented it before now. The fact is: it is not! The burden of proof is with you! You presented Daniel 9 as a proof text, when it is in fact nothing of the sort. It is not there, or in any of the texts that you referenced. That is why you cannot answer my questions. I do not need to prove that something doesn't exist. It is plainly not in the text! That is enough! It is you that is inserting Pretrib where it does not exist!

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

This is factually incorrect. History most certainly does not indicate that the 490 years took place sequentially. In fact EVERY Christian writer who commented on this soon enough after the events to personally know the facts, said that this prophecy includes a gap.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Biblewriter said:
This is factually incorrect. History most certainly does not indicate that the 490 years took place sequentially. In fact EVERY Christian writer who commented on this soon enough after the events to personally know the facts, said that this prophecy includes a gap.

Really? Please present your evidence!

Biblewriter · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
If it is not in Daniel 9, where is this taught elsewhere in Scripture?

I will try to get to that in time. But your “Daniel 9” fixation is totally inappropriate.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Biblewriter said:
I will try to get to that in time. But your “Daniel 9” fixation is totally inappropriate.

It is not my "fixation" it is Pretrib's fixation. They have presented this text as a proof-text for years, yet it has absolutely nothing to do with what they claim.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Biblewriter said:
This is factually incorrect. History most certainly does not indicate that the 490 years took place sequentially. In fact EVERY Christian writer who commented on this soon enough after the events to personally know the facts, said that this prophecy includes a gap.

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

Daniel 9:21-24: “while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Every sensible theologian of all end-times views see these initial seventy years in Daniel 9 congruent and sequential, why would see the following any different?

Biblewriter · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
It is not my "fixation" it is Pretrib's fixation. They have presented this text as a proof-text for years, yet it has absolutely nothing to do with what they claim.

I have been at leader in pre-trib thought for well over 40 years. And I cannot remember ever having heard even one person cite Daniel 9 in defense of the pre-trib rapture.

Biblewriter · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

Daniel 9:21-24: “while I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

Every sensible theologian of all end-times views see these initial seventy years in Daniel 9 congruent and sequential, why would see the following any different?

Because the scriptures indicate it.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Biblewriter said:
I have been at leader in pre-trib thought for well over 50 years. And I cannot remember ever having heard even one person cite Daniel 9 in defense of the pre-trib rapture.

You are going to have to listen better. LOL. I was a Pretribber for many years and heard it preached from the rooftops. As a Pastor, I here Pretribbers advance it often. I have also engaged with Pretribbers on line since 2000 and it continually comes up. The 3rd post on this thread even threw it us as evidence of your doctrine. Other Pretribbers on this board have done similar on other threads.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Biblewriter said:
Because the scriptures indicate it.

Pretribbers have no consistent hermeneutics. If they did their doctrine would quickly disappear.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Biblewriter said:
This is factually incorrect. History most certainly does not indicate that the 490 years took place sequentially. In fact EVERY Christian writer who commented on this soon enough after the events to personally know the facts, said that this prophecy includes a gap.

So, who are these commentators?

Charlie24 · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Pretribbers have no consistent hermeneutics. If they did their doctrine would quickly disappear.

Some of us will have something to say about this when we get started!

Maria Billingsley · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?
11. Where is "Jacob's trouble" mentioned in Daniel 9?

Maybe you can help out by showing them the alternative view to these scriptures. Many of our Dispensational brothers and sisters know nothing about the amillennial view and have been raised on The Scofield Bible. Go ahead, give it a whirl. If you don't, I may?
Blessings.

Charlie24 · Dec 30, 2019

This will be an interesting discussion and we all can learn if we do it properly.

I'm thinking Biblewriter should set the narrative, and we cover our material together.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
Maybe you can help out by showing them the alternative view to these scriptures. Many of our Dispensational brothers and sisters know nothing about the amillennial view and have been raised on The Scofield Bible. Go ahead, give it a whirl. If you don't, I may?
Blessings.

Ok. I started on post 20. I will repost part, and then add more in next post.

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Maria Billingsley said:
Maybe you can help out by showing them the alternative view to these scriptures. Many of our Dispensational brothers and sisters know nothing about the amillennial view and have been raised on The Scofield Bible. Go ahead, give it a whirl. If you don't, I may?
Blessings.

The entire prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 covers a period of "seventy weeks." There is no reason to understand it other than a period that applies to one complete, sequential block of time. After all, if God fulfilled the first 70 here (in Daniel 9:21-24) literally and harmoniously in an undivided manner, why would he not do the same with the second 70 (in Daniel 9:25-26)?

A literal straightforward reading of Daniel 9 would assume the 70th week to follow immediately after the 69th week. If it does not then it cannot properly be called the 70th week! It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and the 70th week, especially when no hint of a gap is found in the prophecy itself. What is more, there is no gap between the first 7 weeks and the following 62 weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and the 70th week?

The unitary 70 weeks are clearly split into 3 (integral) parts.

7 = 49 yrs
62 = 434 yrs
1 = 7 yrs

Total = 490 (harmonious unitary) yrs

Whilst, the last week is still not fully described we will look at the overall outline at this juncture for a blueprint.

(1) The first part (7 weeks) relates to the rebuilding of Jerusalem. The angel said of the first aspect relating to the rebuilding of Jerusalem, in the first seven weeks, “the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.”
(2) The second part (62 weeks) takes up to the beginning of Christ’s earthly ministry.
(3) The third part (1 week) commences with the start of Christ’s earthly ministry and sees the crucifixion half way through it (3 ½ yrs). The other 3 ½ yrs saw the Church receive its baptism of fire at Pentecost and enter into the fulfilment of advancing the Gospel – the nations now being open to the Gospel, unlike before.

The question the futurists must honestly answer is, despite there been placed a marker between the 49th and 50th year, is there any natural gap between the 7 weeks and the 62 weeks?

The answer, of course, is a categorical no!

Therefore, what scriptural warrant is there for, in unprecedented manner, decapitating this harmonious cohesive Messianic prophecy, and then aimlessly and indefinitely projecting the final week 2000 years+ into the unknown to a supposed end-time 3 ½ or 7-year period, when it was in fact perfectly fulfilled in the life and time of our Lord’s ministry? These are clearly 490 literal consecutive years. There are no gaps in the 70 weeks there are simply two markers outlining events that will occur at different stages of the unfolding of this harmonious prophecy. The 70 weeks are glued with spiritual glue that no man can break. Those who believe in the gap-theory must show a gap (namely a period of time existing in-between the 7th and 8 weeks, if they are going to prove the same between the 69th and 70th weeks. It seems clear that they are inextricably joined together.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 30, 2019

sovereigngrace said:
Ok. I started on post 20. I will repost part, and then add more in next thread.

History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states. We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. There is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

There are two views on the 70 weeks. The futurist interpretation refers to the 70th week where the Antichrist makes a covenant with the Jews. This covenant will allow them to offer sacrifices in a "rebuilt" temple at Jerusalem for seven years, but after three and a half years he will break this covenant and cause the sacrifices to cease. The fulfilled interpretation, on the other hand, is that the 70th week refers to Christ and that the causing of the sacrifices to cease was accomplished at Calvary when Christ became the final and perfect sacrifice for sin.
Without this gap created by John Nelson Darby, the futurist view does fall apart which is why it is so important to covet this interpretation.

Doesn't the fulfilled view sound more reasonable and obvious?

Blade · Dec 30, 2019

Yeah... some of these questions being asked are like trick questions. Well be like wheres "rapture" in the bible? What.. never read "caught up"? Or Tribulation in Daniel We know how some talk about 70weeks. Israel owes God 7 years.. the teaching and we know theres a great tribulation. Its what written 5 times in the bible. What if we took what some have posted and leave in ONLY whats written in the word vs added. Why would we (we all do it

) have to add anything if is so clear? Just questions I have right now.

But.. we must also take into account the book of Daniel and gee why was it sealed up till the end? Was there something in it that applies to us today? Has GOD ever moved like this before?

WE look at time.. we hold everything to time. God does not. He is out side of time. I have listen to great men of God about this that have been studying this their whole life and would never state what they personally believe as fact.

And this "gap" theory. A yeah.. been around the block heard many many talk about it on both sides and being 58 this is the 1st time I read it created by Darby. Not that the "gap" didn't come from him. Just taking ok? Love happy..not trying to offend anyone. I know about the letter in 1830Ad. I also know about scrolls dating 300-400ad that talked about "caught up" before the great tribulation. So it was talked about preached about WAY before 1830. This does not prove anything. And there are many books about this saying how it didn't start with Darby. Looking at some right now.

There was a reason why this book of Daniel was sealed until the end. There was things in it that apply to now. Like a?

sovereigngrace · Dec 30, 2019

Blade said:
Yeah... some of these questions being asked are like trick questions. Well be like wheres "rapture" in the bible? What.. never read "caught up"? Or Tribulation in Daniel We know how some talk about 70weeks. Israel owes God 7 years.. the teaching and we know theres a great tribulation. Its what written 5 times in the bible. What if we took what some have posted and leave in ONLY whats written in the word vs added. Why would we (we all do it ) have to add anything if is so clear? Just questions I have right now.

But.. we must also take into account the book of Daniel and gee why was it sealed up till the end? Was there something in it that applies to us today? Has GOD ever moved like this before? WE look at time.. we hold everything to time. God does not. He is out side of time. I have listen to great men of God about this that have been studying this their whole life and would never state what they personally believe as fact.

And this "gap" theory. A yeah.. been around the block heard many many talk about it on both sides and being 58 this is the 1st time I read it created by Darby. Not that the "gap" didn't come from him. Just taking ok? Love happy..not trying to offend anyone. I know about the letter in 1830Ad. I also know about scrolls dating 300-400ad that talked about "caught up" before the great tribulation. So it was talked about preached about WAY before 1830. This does not prove anything. And there are many books about this saying how it didn't start with Darby. Looking at some right now.

There was a reason why this book of Daniel was sealed until the end. There was things in it that apply to now. Like a?

Q. 1. When did "the last days" commence?
Q. 2. When will "the last days" terminate?
Q. 3. When is "the last day" of "the last days"?

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