Did Jesus inherit original sin from Mary?

Carl Emerson said:

Some claim that original sin passes down through the male line only.

When He bore our sins on the cross did this include original sin or did He already have it?

Holy Spirit on the male side.

Humanity on the female side.

Where does original sin come into the equation?

Click to expand...

If original sin is a guilt on our part, then yes, for the elect he bore it. If it is only an unavoidable predisposition, then no. I personally think the unavoidable predisposition is not "only". Our compliance, cooperation, bondage to it, even indulgence in it, implies guilt on our part. We are at enmity with God until he regenerates us, from death to life.

Light of the East said:

It came from Augustine's wretched manhandling of the Greek language (language he did not know and admitted that he hated). He mistranslated Romans 5:12 and for some bizarre reason, the Western Church gobbled up his mistakes and never called a council to discuss these new teachings.

And the rest is, as they say, history.

Click to expand...

There is just lots of error in the churches. I rely on the Individual Priesthood of the Believer. 1 Peter 2:4-8 is good but the idea is supported throughout the Bible. What it means to me is that I am to work out my own peace with God, through Jesus Christ over what I have done.

Daniel9v9 said:

Here you're confusing original sin with the redemptive work of Christ. What 2 Corinthians 5 is saying is that Christ truly took upon Himself the sins of the whole world; our original and actual sins. Or if you're uncomfortable with those terms, the root of sin that is inherited within us that inclines us to not love, fear and trust in God, and our acts of sinning, which is rebellion towards God. In a word, Christ had no sin, but took upon Himself our sin.

Click to expand...

Here you are re-stating and reinterpreting this clear Scripture passage which even little Lutheran children read and memorize. Taking our sinful nature upon Himself...becoming sin...Christ did away with sin not giving way to sin...and crucifying that sin upon the cross. Or, perhaps you misunderstand me.

Carl Emerson said:

Some claim that original sin passes down through the male line only.

When He bore our sins on the cross did this include original sin or did He already have it?

Holy Spirit on the male side.

Humanity on the female side.

Where does original sin come into the equation?

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as original sin as "original guilt". We all suffer the CONSEQUENCES of it and the fallen world...death. Yeshua did die on the cross so He could die as we all do. But He was sinless, thus He gave His life.

friend of said:

In my view, if we were NOT born with original sin, we would be born like Adam before the fall. We would be born with that same restituted relationship with God.

Click to expand...

but we are born into a fallen world...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

There is no such thing as original sin as "original guilt". We all suffer the CONSEQUENCES of it and the fallen world...death. Yeshua did die on the cross so He could die as we all do. But He was sinless, thus He gave His life.

Click to expand...

Romans gives us the Scripture for the term "original sin"...
Romans 5:15-17:
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: the judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
The word *death* there does not refer to physical death. And remembering also that after the fall Adam named "the woman" *Eve* because she would become the mother of all the living.
Christ took on our sinful nature and did not sin...He did not give way to sin.Romans 5 explains the reverse of the curse for sin. It came as a result of just one man's sin as Romans 5:14 indicates...
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Therefore it is inherited or original sin...the entire world fell with the sin of Adam and Eve.

The doctrine of original sin is a doctrine of man. Consequently any doctrine built upon it is a flawed doctrine also.

misput said:

The doctrine of original sin is a doctrine of man. Consequently any doctrine built upon it is a flawed doctrine also.

Click to expand...

Please explain Romans 5:12-21 in your own terms then so I might clear up any misconceptions I might have. I believe you'll find original sin in those passages. Although the term original sin does not appear there the definition thereof does exist...much as using the word Trinity to define the Godhead.

throughfireytrial said:

Romans gives us the Scripture for the term "original sin"...
Romans 5:15-17:
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: the judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
The word *death* there does not refer to physical death. And remembering also that after the fall Adam named "the woman" *Eve* because she would become the mother of all the living.
Christ took on our sinful nature and did not sin...He did not give way to sin.Romans 5 explains the reverse of the curse for sin. It came as a result of just one man's sin as Romans 5:14 indicates...
Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.
Therefore it is inherited or original sin...the entire world fell with the sin of Adam and Eve.

Click to expand...

We do not inherit Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it...death. That is what those scriptures say

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

We do not inherit Adam's sin, we suffer the consequences of it...death. That is what those scriptures say

Click to expand...

Romans 5 says death reigned from the time of Adam even over those who had not broken a command...how so? I'm sure this is the correct context. I never encountered those who did not believe in original sin. We were bound in sin before Christ due to the sinful nature inherited and passed down because of original sin. The promise of a Savior was given us through Adam in Genesis 3:15...the curses followed. Romans 5 states that this sin brought condemnation...so the word death is Bible language for condemnation which is different than damnation.
I'm very willing to hear you out on all this however. As I said this is the first time I've discussed with those who do not believe in original sin.

throughfireytrial said:

Romans 5 says death reigned from the time of Adam even over those who had not broken a command...how so? I'm sure this is the correct context. I never encountered those who did not believe in original sin. We were bound in sin before Christ due to the sinful nature inherited and passed down because of original sin. The promise of a Savior was given us through Adam in Genesis 3:15...the curses followed. Romans 5 states that this sin brought condemnation...so the word death is Bible language for condemnation which is different than damnation.
I'm very willing to hear you out on all this however. As I said this is the first time I've discussed with those who do not believe in original sin.

Click to expand...

The Eastern Orthodox do not. Original sin is the Roman Churches concept and was inherited by their daughters the protestants. Go read what the Orthodox believe. We live in a fallen world because of Adam's sin...we are not guilty of it, but we DO suffer the consequences of it...

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

The Eastern Orthodox do not. Original sin is the Roman Churches concept and was inherited by their daughters the protestants. Go read what the Orthodox believe. We live in a fallen world because of Adam's sin...we are not guilty of it, but we DO suffer the consequences of it...

Click to expand...

Well, while I can, as you suggest, read the Eastern Orthodox statements of faith, I'd rather discuss it with you...you do not want to be one of whom it might be said simply had a certain faith handed down to you...at least I'd guess not. We are proud to have the Scriptures and strive to be noble Bereans and proving out our faith for our own understanding (from God's teachings and thus taught by God).

Again...
Romans 5:16:
the judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

Look it up. What does this sentence mean to you? It was not only the world that fell; Adam and Eve fell and were sent out of the garden (symbolism also speaks in this fact). They realized they were naked and that shows that sin and the knowledge of evil were present. Mankind fell until Jesus came to rescue them.
We were slaves in Egypt...slaves to our sin (in our sinful bodies) in a sin-cursed world.

The actual quote of Augustine:

“As regards the mother of God I will not allow any question whatever of sin." Declaring her by grace of God “ Omni ex parte” free of all type of sin .

Which way of thinking was the basis of the immaculate conception.

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Carl

The sin nature was passed down from Father to child (in Adam). Seeing Jesus did not have a father that was (in Adam) he did not poses the sin nature.

To quote Augustine the flawed stock of Mary had no impact on her first born Jesus the Son of God.

In Him,

Bill

Click to expand...

throughfireytrial said:

Well, while I can, as you suggest, read the Eastern Orthodox statements of faith, I'd rather discuss it with you...you do not want to be one of whom it might be said simply had a certain faith handed down to you...at least I'd guess not. We are proud to have the Scriptures and strive to be noble Bereans and proving out our faith for our own understanding (from God's teachings and thus taught by God).

Again...
Romans 5:16:
the judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

Look it up. What does this sentence mean to you? It was not only the world that fell; Adam and Eve fell and were sent out of the garden (symbolism also speaks in this fact). They realized they were naked and that shows that sin and the knowledge of evil were present. Mankind fell until Jesus came to rescue them.
We were slaves in Egypt...slaves to our sin (in our sinful bodies) in a sin-cursed world.

Click to expand...

It is simple...For if by the trespass of the one the many died...because of Adam's sin, we all die because death entered the world. That was the consequence of that sin.

Carl Emerson said:

Some claim that original sin passes down through the male line only.

When He bore our sins on the cross did this include original sin or did He already have it?

Holy Spirit on the male side.

Humanity on the female side.

Where does original sin come into the equation?

Click to expand...

Jesus' person is God. Not human where sin resides. He has a human nature consisting of body and soul. Moreover God cannot sin.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

It is simple...For if by the trespass of the one the many died...because of Adam's sin, we all die because death entered the world. Tt was the consequence of that sin.

Click to expand...

You are skipping the word "condemnation" (vs 16) not death the Scriptures are using those two words interchangeably. Condemnation is a type of separation from God...they were sent out of the Garden of Eden and the Garden was then guarded so as to prevent reentry...thus they experienced a spiritual death.
Again...
Romans 5:18-19:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners

Read it in context.

Carl Emerson said:

He was a fully redeemed human with no unredeemed nature to fight against - so no desires of the flesh, in my thinking at the moment.

Click to expand...

For me; the challenge with that thinking is that it would mean Christ was not fully human as we are and tempted in every way as we are.
That is stated in scriptures.

I do think, as have some in previous posts, that your fundamental conundrum lies in the difference between the ancient and eastern view of the ancestral/first sin (pre-Augustine/Anselm) and the western view of "original sin" which came after.

The west views the fall largely as a juridical one; where man is declared "guilty" and subject to the punishment/wrath of God.

The ancient view is different. In Orthodox thought God did not threaten Adam and Eve with punishment nor was He angered or offended by their sin; He was moved to compassion.
The expulsion from the Garden and from the Tree of Life was an act of love and not vengeance so that humanity would not "become immortal in sin". Thus began the preparation for the Incarnation of the Son of God and the solution that alone could rectify the situation: the destruction of the enemies of humanity and God, death (I Corinthians 15:26, 56), sin, corruption and the devil.
In the east, God/Christ is viewed more as the Great Physician than that of the wrathful judge. The Church is a place of healing and restoration and not a courtroom.

Orthodoxwiki article on the subject (linkage)
Something the linked article referenced which I had never considered prior; Augustine was debating Pelagianism and the condition of un-baptized infants when he first introduced the concept of Original Sin as taught in the west:
"The fate of unbaptized infants first became the subject of sustained theological reflection in the West during the anti-Pelagian controversies of the early 5th century. St. Augustine addressed the question because Pelagius was teaching that infants could be saved without Baptism.. In countering Pelagius, Augustine was led to state that infants who die without Baptism are consigned to hell.."
The age of reason or age of accountability, as taught in the west was a result of this as well.
This is unnecessary in the east because babies are not considered guilty of Adam's sin (they are birthed into the consequences of it).

Dave L said:

Jesus' person is God. Not human where sin resides. He has a human nature consisting of body and soul. Moreover God cannot sin.

Click to expand...

Not so...God is spirit, not flesh. Jesus was true God and true man all in one person.
God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.’ --John 4:24

Romans 1:2-4:
...the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus did not sin, but took on the sinful nature...in becoming a man. He became flesh to uphold the LAW perfectly. He also became a human to become a merciful high priest according to Hebrews. (Thus
II Corinthians 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

throughfireytrial said:

Not so...God is spirit, not flesh. Jesus was true God and true man all in one person.
God is spirit, and his worshippers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.’ --John 4:24

Romans 1:2-4:
...the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jesus did not sin, but took on the sinful nature...in becoming a man. He became flesh to uphold the LAW perfectly. He also became a human to become a merciful high priest according to Hebrews. (Thus
II Corinthians 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Click to expand...

THE SYMBOL OF CHALCEDON

We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body; consubstantial [coessential] with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.


Historic Creeds and Confessions. Lexham Press.