LDS LDS, this is the meaning of Firstborn

Rescued One · Dec 18, 2019

Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation? | GotQuestions.org

He is the way · Dec 18, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation? | GotQuestions.org

So this we do know that God the Father is the Father of spirits. We also know that God the Father is the God and Father of Jesus Christ. We also know this:

(New Testament | Romans 8:28 - 29)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We also know that Jesus Christ is in the express image of the Father:

(New Testament | Hebrews 1:3)

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Daniel Marsh · Dec 18, 2019

Romans 8:29 Expanded Bible (EXB)
29 ·God knew them before he made the world [L For those whom he foreknew…], ·and he chose them […he also predestined/chose beforehand] to be ·like [molded to the pattern of; conformed to the image of] his Son so that Jesus would be the firstborn [C the preeminent one, but also indicating others will follow] of many brothers and sisters [C Jesus’ resurrection confirms that his followers will also share in God’s glory].

Psalm 89:27
I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

Colossians 1:14-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 The Son paid the price to make us free. In him we have forgiveness of our sins.

The Son of God Is the Same as God
15 No one can see God,
but the Son is exactly like God.
He rules over everything that has been made.[a]
16 Through his power all things were made:
things in heaven and on earth, seen and not seen—
all spiritual rulers, lords, powers, and authorities.
Everything was made through him and for him.

Revelation 1:5 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Romans 8:29 Good News Translation (GNT)
29 Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers.

Handmaid for Jesus · Dec 18, 2019

Lord Jesus is the very Word that was in the beginning, the very utterance of God the Father, the "Let there be" uttered by the Father.
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

He is the way · Dec 18, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
Romans 8:29 Expanded Bible (EXB)
29 ·God knew them before he made the world [L For those whom he foreknew…], ·and he chose them […he also predestined/chose beforehand] to be ·like [molded to the pattern of; conformed to the image of] his Son so that Jesus would be the firstborn [C the preeminent one, but also indicating others will follow] of many brothers and sisters [C Jesus’ resurrection confirms that his followers will also share in God’s glory].

Psalm 89:27
I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.

Colossians 1:14-16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
14 The Son paid the price to make us free. In him we have forgiveness of our sins.

The Son of God Is the Same as God
15 No one can see God,
but the Son is exactly like God.
He rules over everything that has been made.[a]
16 Through his power all things were made:
things in heaven and on earth, seen and not seen—
all spiritual rulers, lords, powers, and authorities.
Everything was made through him and for him.

Revelation 1:5 New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE)
5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Romans 8:29 Good News Translation (GNT)
29 Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:40)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Of the Kingdom · Dec 18, 2019

He is the way said:
(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Notice, "My Father, and your Father"

Although God is a "father" to both Jesus and the believers, a clear distinction is made here about the type of fatherhood. In Jesus' case, it is a relationship that existed long before any person or object in this universe, even before any angels existed. In the disciples' case, the bible clearly states that we are adopted into the family of God. Of course we are also created by God, but a creator-to-created relationship does not qualify as fatherhood.

Handmaid for Jesus · Dec 19, 2019

Of the Kingdom said:
Notice, "My Father, and your Father"

Although God is a "father" to both Jesus and the believers, a clear distinction is made here about the type of fatherhood. In Jesus' case, it is a relationship that existed long before any person or object in this universe, even before any angels existed. In the disciples' case, the bible clearly states that we are adopted into the family of God. Of course we are also created by God, but a creator-to-created relationship does not qualify as fatherhood.

Adam was the direct creation of God. The rest of us are born of the flesh, and Christians are born again of the Holy Spirit.Therefore we are born into the family of God by the Spirit of adoption.The relationship is then Father to son. That is why Jesus calls us bretheren.
1Cor.15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

He is the way · Dec 19, 2019

Of the Kingdom said:
Notice, "My Father, and your Father"

Although God is a "father" to both Jesus and the believers, a clear distinction is made here about the type of fatherhood. In Jesus' case, it is a relationship that existed long before any person or object in this universe, even before any angels existed. In the disciples' case, the bible clearly states that we are adopted into the family of God. Of course we are also created by God, but a creator-to-created relationship does not qualify as fatherhood.

If I built a chair I would not be it's father. But if I have a son or daughter I will indeed be their earthly father. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and we are His brothers and sisters. However because of Adam's transgression we had to leave our Father in heaven. The only way back is through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Bible states:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 14)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

By this we see who will not be God's sons. Another good scripture is this one:

(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 19)

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Therefore let us be obedient and endure to the end:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 19, 2019

He is the way said:
(New Testament | Matthew 25:40)

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

(New Testament | John 20:17)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

In your first text the phrase or idiom, "the least of these my brethren" refers to the poor in Israel. In the second text, Jesus was referring to the disciples, not his own family. Using those as a proof text that everyone is literally born of a mother and father god before coming to earth ... when corrected and viewed in context shows your case for your doctrine is lost.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

Daniel Marsh · Dec 19, 2019

He is the way said:
If I built a chair I would not be it's father. But if I have a son or daughter I will indeed be their earthly father. Jesus Christ is the Son of God and we are His brothers and sisters. However because of Adam's transgression we had to leave our Father in heaven. The only way back is through the atonement of Jesus Christ. The Bible states:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 14)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

By this we see who will not be God's sons. Another good scripture is this one:

(New Testament | Romans 8:16 - 19)

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Therefore let us be obedient and endure to the end:

(New Testament | Hebrews 5:8 - 9)

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

making a thing out of pre-existing matter is not creating a living creature.

He is the way · Dec 19, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
In your first text the phrase or idiom, "the least of these my brethren" refers to the poor in Israel. In the second text, Jesus was referring to the disciples, not his own family. Using those as a proof text that everyone is literally born of a mother and father god before coming to earth ... when corrected and viewed in context shows your case for your doctrine is lost.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

I don't see how verse 18 makes any difference. God the Father is still the God and Father of Jesus Christ and the disciples. Jesus still spoke those things to Mary Magdalene and she relaid that to the disciples.

He is the way · Dec 19, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
making a thing out of pre-existing matter is not creating a living creature.

Just as I said, "If I built a chair I would not be it's father. But if I have a son or daughter I will indeed be their earthly father."

Rescued One · Dec 20, 2019

Mormonism:

Their father god is the father of everyone. The Bible verse pertaining to a believer's adoption refers to being adopted by their Jesus.. So they think they have become Jesus' sons and daughters. But they are not allowed to pray to Jesus. They only pray to Jesus' father who is a resurrected man.

He is the way · Dec 20, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Mormonism:

Their father god is the father of everyone. The Bible verse pertaining to a believer's adoption refer's to being adopted by their Jesus.. So they think they have become Jesus' sons and daughters. But they are not allowed to pray to Jesus. They only pray to Jesus' father who is a resurrected man.

Yes the only way back to the Father is through the atonement of Jesus Christ:

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 10:6)

6 Wherefore, all mankind were in a lost and in a fallen state, and ever would be save they should rely on this Redeemer.

(New Testament | Romans 3:23 - 31)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

BigDaddy4 · Dec 20, 2019

Mormonism's doctrine of progression to exaltation implies there is a regression of "gods" (i.e., they learn from Jesus, who learned from God the Father, who in turn learned from his father, etc.). That doesn't seem to align with Jesus being the "first born of all creation", since at least some of creation had to exist during the regression cycle of mormon gods. If so, then what "creation" was around for grandpa and grandma god (their God the Father's father and mother gods)?

Peter1000 · Dec 20, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation? | GotQuestions.org

Yes, I have heard this explanation before, and for one to be the firstborn and really not be the firstborn is not sound thinking.

You can Greek around the word firstborn all you want, but when the bible says firstborn, I happen to believe it.

Or tell me that you have met someone who said this is my firstborn son, but then said, but he is not my oldest son? Yeah, that is going to happen.

Peter1000 · Dec 20, 2019

BigDaddy4 said:
Mormonism's doctrine of progression to exaltation implies there is a regression of "gods" (i.e., they learn from Jesus, who learned from God the Father, who in turn learned from his father, etc.). That doesn't seem to align with Jesus being the "first born of all creation", since at least some of creation had to exist during the regression cycle of mormon gods. If so, then what "creation" was around for grandpa and grandma god (their God the Father's father and mother gods)?

It is not as difficult as you would like to make it.

Rescued One · Dec 20, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Yes, I have heard this explanation before, and for one to be the firstborn and really not be the firstborn is not sound thinking.

You can Greek around the word firstborn all you want, but when the bible says firstborn, I happen to believe it.

Or tell me that you have met someone who said this is my firstborn son, but then said, but he is not my oldest son? Yeah, that is going to happen.

Your Bible isn't translated correctly, remember?

In American culture firstborn doesn't mean
preeminent:
having paramount rank, dignity, or importance : OUTSTANDING, SUPREME

What you believe is Mormonism.

Hebrew culture:

In biblical Hebrew usage the term bekhor, “firstborn [male],” and its derivatives, are somewhat ambiguous. The characterization of the human bekhor as reshit on, “the first fruit of vigor” (Gen. 49:3; Deut. 21:17; cf. Ps. 78:51; 105:36), stresses the relation to the father and adumbrates the first-born’s status of principal heir and successor of his father as head of the family...

According to Deuteronomy 21:15–17, a father was obliged to acknowledge his firstborn son as his principal heir, and to grant him a double portion of his estate as inheritance. (Pishenayim means “two-thirds” [see Zech. 13:8], but the intention of the text is that the firstborn shall get whatever fraction a double portion may come to; in the case posited in the text, where there are only two sons, it is two-thirds, but where there are three sons, it is one-half, and so on; cf. the correct inference drawn in BB 123a from I Chron. 5:1ff., which expressly terms Joseph’s status as “firstborn” – Joseph received twice the portion of any of his brothers [Gen. 48:5, 22; ef. Rashbam to BB 123a].) This obligation was to apply irrespective of the status of the son’s mother in a polygamous family. This inheritance right is termed mishpat ha-bekhorah, “the rule of the birthright” (Deut. 21:17), and the legal process by which the first-born son was so designated is expressed by the verb yakkir “he shall acknowledge.” Undoubtedly the acknowledgment involved certain formal, legal acts which are not indicated in biblical literature. In a different context, God acknowledged Israel as his firstborn (Ex. 4:22; ef. Jer. 31:8). A son, addressing his father, might also refer to his own status as firstborn son (Gen. 27:19, 32).
Firstborn

BigDaddy4 · Dec 21, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Yes, I have heard this explanation before, and for one to be the firstborn and really not be the firstborn is not sound thinking.

You can Greek around the word firstborn all you want, but when the bible says firstborn, I happen to believe it.

Or tell me that you have met someone who said this is my firstborn son, but then said, but he is not my oldest son? Yeah, that is going to happen.

Do you also believe Jesus is a hen and we are his chicks?
"...as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings," Matthew 23:37

If not, then perhaps you should take off your mormonism glasses and see the truth found within the context.

BigDaddy4 · Dec 21, 2019

Peter1000 said:
It is not as difficult as you would like to make it.

Thank you for your non-explanation.

LDS LDS, this is the meaning of Firstborn

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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