The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

renniks said:

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων in John 3:16 coveys a generic subject, conditionality, and the meaning of “whoever believes.
There is nothing in the Greek that weakens the conditionality of the English translation, “whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”
While John 3:16 limits salvation to believers, the universalism of the text is not limited to believers.
The sacrifice of Christ was for the world. And the indefinite, generic construction bearing the sense of whoever refers to whoever from the world believes in Christ. All of this implies that God wants all people to believe and be saved since he loves them and sacrificed his son for them.

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Good Day, Renniks

In dealing with Jn 3:16 in it's context... there is no direct correlation to Eternal life and the world... only believers have eternal life for them the Son was given.

YLT: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

zoidar said:

I don't know, either after Philip made his choice or from the beginning of time.

The Holy Spirit told Philp what to do. He didn't impress the desire in Philip's heart and mind. Philip did!

That's the cool part, no matter what happens God always has a plan for everything, that what He purposes will come true.

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Good day, Peter

Well you created the question, so in your mind when did God know Phillips was going to refuse God's direction?

I know dealing nonfactual types of questions are hard. The fact is he did exactly as God had told him, because he was a regenerated believer.

Of course God has a purpose for everything that is what makes Him God, and his purposes never fail.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

YLT: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

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Who did he love? The world, that includes everyone.

zoidar said:

I understood it like you asked specifically about the Holy Spirit. Of course God the Father knew. If the Holy Spirit has the same knowledge as the Father I don't know.

As a regenerated believer, I didn't do what God told me.

Agree, His purpose never fails.

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Good Day, Peter

this is the OP... snipped

"Now to the question. Let's say when Philip heard the voice of the Holy Spirit and didn't choose to follow the voice. Then the eunuch didn't get the message of Christ and wasn't saved. Who would be to be blamed? God? No, God wanted for Philip to deliver the message to the eunuch and save him. Philip? Yes, he was the one who chose to not follow the voice of Holy Spirit.

This is the situation of God and man. God wants everyone saved, but because of man not everyone is."
... End

Ok so let say the Father knew ( I am trying really hard here as the Holy Spirit is God just as much as the Father)

Gods purpose was to send Phillip so the eunuch would hear the (Gospel) message and get saved. So the Father knew when he sent the Holy Spirit that in your question that, Phillip would chose not to obey before the Holy Spirit spoke to Phillip?


So the Holy Spirit tried and failed to accomplish what the Father had send him to do, and the Father knew that?

Do I understand you correctly...

In Him,

Bill

zoidar said:

No, Gods purpose was to tell Philip what to do. God also knew how Philip would respond. If God had the purpose for the eunuch to hear the Gospel He would see to it to be done, even if it wasn't through Philip. So, yes God in this imaginary situation asked Philip to do something He knew Philip wouldn't do.

The Holy Spirit didn't fail, The Holy Spirit directed Philip, that was God's purpose. How Philip responded was up to Philip, and not the choice of the Holy Spirit.

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Good Day, Peter

I went and looked up the context and I will stand by it:

So if that is the purpose of God in re-birthing a person.. can he fail in that completion of that purpose?


I say he can not....

Isa 46:8"Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.

Because it is by his will that work of re-birth happens. The power of the Gospel is the instrumental cause that God to bring about Salvation, from start to finish it is all of God he alone is the primary cause of our repenting, believing and coming to Christ. His purpose its the out working of his will and he will do it.


John 1 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet othe world did not know him. 11 He came to phis own,rdid not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, swho believed in his name, the gave the right uto become vchildren of God, 13 who wwere born, xnot of blood ynor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

In Him,

Bill

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renniks said:

I see what you did there. Cherry picking out single verses and adding words to the verse. Not cool.

8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

If you read these verses without your Calvinist lenses on, you will see that Paul is saying, first of all, that his letter caused them to have sorrow. He is encouraging them for doing the right thing..there is no proof text for irresistible grace here. He says: "At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter."
Obviously, to anyone reading the Bible without some man made doctrine in mind, this means they had the option of being guilty, but they choose to do right.
I find this happens over and over in talking to deterministic thinkers. They take everything and twist it to fit their "everything is predestined" agenda. It gets old rather quickly.

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The multitude of scripture stands precisely as quoted for there is solid correlation that repentance is of/by/from God within us believers.

I use a term, Free-willians, which designates people who claim that choice toward God exists. Free-willians claim a choice toward God in the face Lord Jesus' words "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

I've noticed the free-willian tendancy to employ diversionary tactics when presented with overwhelming evidence that refutes the free-willian position. Free-willians say or write things like "cherry picking" or "spiritual rape". But in the end, the Scripture demonstrates that God determines man's salvation as well as that man is entirely impotent with respect to being saved from the wrath of God.

As a Christian, for I follow Christ by His merciful Hand, here is the proper exegesis of 2 Corinthians 7:8-10. The passage (from the NASB which explicitly states that the NASB translators add bracketed words for clarity - so I have no problem removing the bracketed words from the NASB - but this is verbatim from the NASB):

8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it - [for] I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while -
9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
10 For the sorrow that is according to [the will] [of] God produces a repentance without regret, [leading] to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

Paul wrote a letter that exposed the Corinthian problem, see "I caused you sorrow by my letter" in verse 8.

As Paul writes further (in verse 9), the Apostle narrows the focus with "for you were made sorrowful according to God"; moreover, the Greek of ἐλυπήθητε γὰρ κατὰ Θεόν agrees with "for you were made sorrowful according to God". "ἐλυπήθητε" means "you grieved"/"you were made sorrowful", and "γὰρ" means "for", and "κατὰ" means "down"/"against"/"according to", and "Θεόν" means "God".

Paul does not leave it there, NO, rather Paul repeats himself in verse 10 to make it clear - in Jewish fashion of repeating a point for emphasis - Paul makes it clear in no uncertain terms "the sorrow that is according to God produces a repentance without regret, to salvation". That is Paul driving the Power of God exclusive role in man's salvation point home!

NOTICE THE KEYWORDS OF "ACCORDING TO GOD".

That sorrow, that repentance, is not of man's conjuring. See the keywords and absolute concept of "according to God"!

Renniks, you wrote "this means they had the option of being guilty, but they choose to do right"; however, the concept of "choose" is entirely absent from the passage, so that would be you reading into scripture which is eisegesis.

Renniks, it appears to me that since the balance of BIBLE CITATIONs in this post demonstrating that repentance is by/from/in God working in man that indicate that repentance is from God disagrees with your belief system, you just snipped all that scripture off and ignore it.

I thank God Who gives me the Holy Spirit to understand God's Word and exegete accurately.

renniks said:

A command does not convey ability? Are you serious? Why command someone to do something if A. You are going to give them no other choices by irresistibly causing them to do it. or B. You are going to make it impossible for them to obey the command?
How about we stop with the cherry picking and read what is actually said:

14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

16 Then the people answered, “Far be it from us to forsake the Lord to serve other gods! 17 It was the Lord our God himself who brought us and our parents up out of Egypt, from that land of slavery, and performed those great signs before our eyes. He protected us on our entire journey and among all the nations through which we traveled. 18 And the Lord drove out before us all the nations, including the Amorites, who lived in the land. We too will serve the Lord, because he is our God.”

19 Joshua said to the people, “You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. 20 If you forsake the Lord and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.”

21 But the people said to Joshua, “No! We will serve the Lord.”

22 Then Joshua said, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord.”

"A man cannot choose God", you said. Joshua says "you have chosen to serve the Lord."

So, I say, "Choose ye this day who you want to believe, your made made theology or God's Word. As for me, I will choose to believe God's word."

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Renniks, in your final two paragraphs, you eliminate some key words from Joshua 24:22, you left out the independent clause while you only quote the dependent clause thus you impose a false interpretation upon the text.

Joshua's declaration in Joshua 24:22 - in it's entirety - was "You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen to serve the Lord".

Accurate points are:

1) Behold, Joshua said "witnesses against" which indicates the Israelites error, see Joshua 24:19. The Isrealites FAILED in that which they claimed to Joshua. Proof of the Israelites failure is that God punished the Isrealites via various means, including the Midianites (see the book of Judges which occurs immediately after the book of Joshua hence proving that the Israelites failed in their declaration), and Assyrians and Nebuchadnessar.

2) Command does not convey ability. For example, Joshua 24:14 contains the command "fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord"; however, we find in Judges 1:21 "But the sons of Benjamin did not drive out the Jebusites who lived in Jerusalem; so the Jebusites have lived with the sons of Benjamin in Jerusalem to this day" - they did not obey the command issued in Deuteronomy 7:1-5! A command does not convey ability.

3) Next "you have chosen to serve the Lord" is not the same as "chosen the Lord".

4) You continue to attempt to insert your wrong interpretation into Joshua 24:15 which is accurately divided in this post.

5) Joshua said "You are not able to serve the Lord. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins" (Joshua 24:19). That is a decisive statement.

According to the Word of God, this is a decisive statement:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

Men cannot choose God unto salvation.

The glory for any man's salvation is ALL GOD'S!

renniks said:

πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων in John 3:16 coveys a generic subject, conditionality, and the meaning of “whoever believes.
There is nothing in the Greek that weakens the conditionality of the English translation, “whoever believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”
While John 3:16 limits salvation to believers, the universalism of the text is not limited to believers.
The sacrifice of Christ was for the world. And the indefinite, generic construction bearing the sense of whoever refers to whoever from the world believes in Christ. All of this implies that God wants all people to believe and be saved since he loves them and sacrificed his son for them.

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I must say that BBAS 64 wrote a correction quite well regarding John 3:16 to your post, renniks, with:

BBAS 64 said:

In dealing with Jn 3:16 in it's context... there is no direct correlation to Eternal life and the world... only believers have eternal life for them the Son was given.

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Now, as to "whoever believes", indicates only those whom God grants belief/faith are capable of believing for it is written:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
(The Apostle Paul, Ephesians 2:8-10)

This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
(Lord Jesus, John 6:29)

Renniks, you further impose your wrong interpretation on John 3:16 by:

1) your wrong definition of "world" in John 3:16, for Lord Jesus said "I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me" (John 17:9) which results in Lord Jesus using "world" (Greek kosmos) to indicate different groups of people! See that Lord Jesus used "world" in John 3:16 and John 17:9 in different manners - with different meaning!

2) imposing your promiscuous application of "whoever" by use of your word "generic" in your first sentence. That is eisegesis. You do not take scripture as a whole.

Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Salvation of man is entirely the merciful and loving act of Almighty God! We believers are entirely indebted to Him Who saves!

Kermos said:

Renniks, in your final two paragraphs, you eliminate some key words from Joshua 24:22, you left out the independent clause while you only quote the dependent clause thus you impose a false interpretation upon the text.

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Nope that's directly from the Bible... I didn't leave anything out.

Kermos said:

Lord Jesus said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

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He said that to his disciples, not us. And one of the chosen betrayed him.

Kermos said:

I thank God Who gives me the Holy Spirit to understand God's Word and exegete accurately.

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Do you have any idea how arrogant that sounds?
What you do is twist the word to fit your agenda. It's sad, really.
Why even argue with free Willians? Obviously they're only doing what they're destined to do if you are correct.

renniks said:

He said that to his disciples, not us. And one of the chosen betrayed him.

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Good Day, Renniks

Even Judas served God's Purpose, Just like Nebuchadnezzar my servant.

Satan, Judas Iscariot, and The Sovereignty of God

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good Day, Renniks

Even Judas served God's Purpose, Just like Nebuchadnezzar my servant.

Satan, Judas Iscariot, and The Sovereignty of God

In Him,

Bill

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Ahh, but the point was the poster was trying to apply what Jesus said to his disciple about them being chosen to us. Yes, they were chosen for a task, to spread the gospel.

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.

We are the fruit. A little context, please. I see this verse being miss used over and over again by determinism proponents.

zoidar said:

.........This is the situation of God and man. God wants everyone saved, but because of man not everyone is.

Christ love,
Peter

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I'm gonna have to dissent, Peter.

First, the question is about God's ability, not God's possibilities. That subtle distinction makes your response to Bill tangential at best, irrelevant at worst.

Second, by stating what God wants is dependent upon "because of man..." you've subordinated God and his soteriological plan - a plan that existed before the world was created - to humanity and not just humanity in general, but sinful humanity. In other words, you've subjugated The Infinite to the finite and the Righteous Infinite to the sinful finite.

Not only is this scripturally untenable, it is logically untenable given the presupposition of an omni-attributed Creator God.

The situation of God and man is that God wants everyone saved but because of God not everyone is saved. Because of sin, none are righteous and all are in need of salvation. Because of God some are saved and some are not. He is glorified as a just God when he metes out the just recompense for disobedience and He is glorified as a God of grace when He extends an undeserved grace upon those He chooses.

That is what God is able to do. That is His ability. Neither He nor His plan of salvation is dependent upon the sinfully dead and enslaved creature.

Josheb said:

I'm gonna have to dissent, Peter.

First, the question is about God's ability, not God's possibilities. That subtle distinction makes your response to Bill tangential at best, irrelevant at worst.

Second, by stating what God wants is dependent upon "because of man..." you've subordinated God and his soteriological plan - a plan that existed before the world was created - to humanity and not just humanity in general, but sinful humanity. In other words, you've subjugated The Infinite to the finite and the Righteous Infinite to the sinful finite.

Not only is this scripturally untenable, it is logically untenable given the presupposition of an omni-attributed Creator God.

The situation of God and man is that God wants everyone saved but because of God not everyone is saved. Because of sin, none are righteous and all are in need of salvation. Because of God some are saved and some are not. He is glorified as a just God when he metes out the just recompense for disobedience and He is glorified as a God of grace when He extends an undeserved grace upon those He chooses.

That is what God is able to do. That is His ability. Neither He nor His plan of salvation is dependent upon the sinfully dead and enslaved creature.

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Hi Josheb, you’ve made some very good points here. One needs to be always careful that in everything the Father is the straight line being directed to. Even Jesus said that blasphemy against His person would be forgiven but the Father is Spirit and His glory and honour are placed above all else as the Graceful God.

renniks said:

Nope that's directly from the Bible... I didn't leave anything out.

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Hello Renniks,

You wrote "'A man cannot choose God', you said. Joshua says 'you have chosen to serve the Lord.'" thus, renniks, your closing arguments in your post #159 are based on the removal of words from scripture, that is Joshua 24:22, which carries a deadly penalty.

Now, to expose another error of yours which I did not expose in this previous post exposing your subtraction from Joshua 24:22 (link to post in this thread):

You wrote "So, I say, 'Choose ye this day who you want to believe, your made made theology or God's Word. As for me, I will choose to believe God's word.'" in your final paragraph of the above mentioned post.

Well, that's not what Joshua said (in Joshua 24:15), you added "choose to believe" as well as a bunch of other stuff. You exhibit the free-willian tendency to add and subtract from scripture which carries dire consequences as recorded by the Apostle John (Revelation 22:18-19) and Moses (Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 4:32).

Joshua said "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15).

You wrote that you "will choose to believe God's word" which is directly contradictory to God's Word.

The Word of God decisively states:

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).