The A & P

Charlie24 said:

Paul is referring to the body as the Church. Come on man, read the context of 1Cor. 12.

Is the whole of mankind a part of the True Church?

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No. I am not saying the current whole of humankind is part of the church here on earth.

Sorry. I pasted the wrong scripture into my post. I copied this one below, but the one you quoted was still on my pasteboard and went there instead. I saw it later and corrected it. (post #37)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Saint Steven said:

On that point we agree. Whosoever believes will have life. (everlasting/age-during life)

Since you are as fond of context as I am, let's look at verse 17. For what purpose was Christ sent into the world? Did he succeed, or fail miserably?

John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

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I son't have time for all this nonsense

FineLinen said:

Dear Charlie: What was distant and vague in my response to you?

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 11 - King James Version

It is exciting to know you desire the context of our Father's expressions.

In summing up Romans chapter 11 we read thus>>>

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen

Would you like to discuss the scope of ta pante Charlie?

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I believe the context of scripture must be understood before determining doctrine. In fact, it must be understood from every possible angle.

I've spent the majority of my life trying to do just that. I will have to say I totally disagree with your doctrine. I agree to disagree with you sir.

Charlie24 said:

Paul is referring to the body as the Church. Come on man, read the context of 1Cor. 12.

Is the whole of mankind a part of the True Church?

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Are you ready to move on to this one? Notice the all-inclusive comparatives on this one.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Charlie24 said:

I son't have time for all this nonsense

I believe the context of scripture must be understood before determining doctrine. In fact, it must be understood from every possible angle.

I've spent the majority of my life trying to do just that. I will have to say I totally disagree with your doctrine. I agree to disagree with you sir.

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Fair enough.
Thanks for the polite discussion. I appreciate it.

Numbers 6:24-26
The Lord bless you
and keep you;
25 the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;
26 the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.

Saint Steven said:

Are you ready to move on to this one? Notice the all-inclusive comparatives on this one.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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Steven, why in the world do you argue tooth and nail in your posts and then agree with my posts? You have agreed several times, why?

Charlie24 said:

Steven, why in the world do you argue tooth and nail in your posts and then agree with my posts? You have agreed several times, why?

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Thanks for asking.
1) The teeth and nails are in your imagination. I have been polite and direct. If I didn't come off that way, I apologize.
2) I have been giving you "like"s because I like that fact that you are willing to engage. I only recall giving you one "agree".

Saint Steven said:

Fair enough.
Thanks for the polite discussion. I appreciate it.

Numbers 6:24-26
The Lord bless you
and keep you;
25 the Lord make his face shine on you
and be gracious to you;
26 the Lord turn his face toward you
and give you peace.

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I don't think I was so polite. I think you have shown the true christian spirit in this discussion. I apologize for not showing the same.

FineLinen said:

Dear Charlie: It is distressing to think any aspect of our Father's word is "nonsense". I with Saint Steve wish you well in your journey into Him.

"All things that you ask straightly and directly from inside My Name you shall be given."

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In no way was I referring to the Word as nonsense. I guess this is just another example of why we see scripture in a different light. Wish you well also.

Charlie24 said:

I don't think I was so polite. I think you have shown the true christian spirit in this discussion. I apologize for not showing the same.

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Thanks. I forgive you without hesitation.

I expect to be treated badly. I have been disowned by some I have known for years.
You were better than most. So, take heart.

Here's a few things that might be helpful.

Universalism is one of three doctrines of the final judgment.
Ultimately, that is the only place we actually disagree.
Here are the three as a list. There is scriptural support for all three views.
1) Damnationism: (the prevailing view) which includes eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape for the "lost".
2) Annihilationism: similar to Damnationism, but the "lost" burn up and no longer exist.
3) Universalism: which is based on the restoration of all creation. What Damnationists call "hell" is actually corrective and purifying. Like refining silver or gold. (but with weeping and gnashing of teeth) There's the teeth and nails. -lol

Gospel Conversations is all about expanding our view of God and that means inquiring into mystery. One of the best ways to inquire is to map out the landscape of a debate—and that is exactly what Robin does in this marvellous talk. He gives us a birds-eye view of the long debate over universalism. But he goes further—and he gives us a map to navigate the territory. He defines what universalism is and is not. He explains the different pathways that have led many orthodox Christians to consider it seriously—Bible, experience, patristics, and ‘gospel logic’. This takes a lot of confusion and heat out of the debate and gives us a clear view of the topic. But it also hints at a bigger view of God, and a broader view of Christian thinking. Robin gives us the gift of years of learning and thought in one hour.
Brad Jersak is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC, where he attends Fresh Wind Christian Fellowship and serves as Reader at All Saints of North America Monastery. His heart is to share the good news that God is Love and that God’s love was shown to us perfectly in Jesus of Nazareth. Through his books and seminars, Brad teaches that anyone can learn to hear God’s voice through the simple practice of ”listening prayer.” Those who practice listening prayer find that God’s love heals wounded hearts and empowers them to heal this broken world.

Saint Steven said:

Thanks. I forgive you without hesitation.

I expect to be treated badly. I have been disowned by some I have known for years.
You were better than most. So, take heart.

Here's a few things that might be helpful.

Universalism is one of three doctrines of the final judgment.
Ultimately, that is the only place we actually disagree.
Here are the three as a list. There is scriptural support for all three views.
1) Damnationism: (the prevailing view) which includes eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape for the "lost".
2) Annihilationism: similar to Damnationism, but the "lost" burn up and no longer exist.
3) Universalism: which is based on the restoration of all creation. What Damnationists call "hell" is actually corrective and purifying. Like refining silver or gold. (but with weeping and gnashing of teeth) There's the teeth and nails. -lol

Gospel Conversations is all about expanding our view of God and that means inquiring into mystery. One of the best ways to inquire is to map out the landscape of a debate—and that is exactly what Robin does in this marvellous talk. He gives us a birds-eye view of the long debate over universalism. But he goes further—and he gives us a map to navigate the territory. He defines what universalism is and is not. He explains the different pathways that have led many orthodox Christians to consider it seriously—Bible, experience, patristics, and ‘gospel logic’. This takes a lot of confusion and heat out of the debate and gives us a clear view of the topic. But it also hints at a bigger view of God, and a broader view of Christian thinking. Robin gives us the gift of years of learning and thought in one hour.

Brad Jersak is an author and teacher based in Abbotsford, BC, where he attends Fresh Wind Christian Fellowship and serves as Reader at All Saints of North America Monastery. His heart is to share the good news that God is Love and that God’s love was shown to us perfectly in Jesus of Nazareth. Through his books and seminars, Brad teaches that anyone can learn to hear God’s voice through the simple practice of ”listening prayer.” Those who practice listening prayer find that God’s love heals wounded hearts and empowers them to heal this broken world.

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Steven, the problem with universalism and the reason folks get upset is that it has no foundation in scripture. It's all theory and taking scripture out of context.

This imo is the leading false doctrine that takes theory to unknown limits. If you are going to push this out there you will need solid scriptural references that are in context with your points. So far, I haven't seen that.

Charlie24 said:

Steven, the problem with universalism and the reason folks get upset is that it has no foundation in scripture. It's all theory and taking scripture out of context.

This imo is the leading false doctrine that takes theory to unknown limits. If you are going to push this out there you will need solid scriptural references that are in context with your points. So far, I haven't seen that.

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Thanks for your reply. I appreciate and understand your concerns.

And when I first looked into it, I fought it with similar arguments. But I took a stance that if what the Universalists were telling me about hell was true, I wanted to hear enough to truly understand it. I had to study it out for myself.


As I mentioned earlier, the Bible is a Damnationist text. The Western/Latin/Roman Church gave us our Bible, for which I am very grateful. But in contrast to the Eastern church, which was predominately Universalist doctrinally, the church that canonized our Bible were Damnationist. This had an obvious effect on the translation. The Bible therefore has a Damnationist bias.

Therefore we are left to reverse engineer our doctrine from the outcome of the restoration of all things and to address the translation issues.

So, your request for a scriptural basis is nearly impossible. And I'm doing my best as someone who is rather new to this to give you something you can relate to. And frankly, if what we had going was a debate, I think I won the debate. No offense, but you dropped the ball, not me.

The bottom line.
With what I have learned to date, I would rather be a Universalist and be wrong, than a Damnationist and be right. The god the Damnationists have created bears little resemblance to my loving heavenly Father.

Honestly, why would God plan his creation in order to fail in the end? I believe there will be a happy ending to this story. That's something no Damnationist can claim. IMHO

Saint Steven said:

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate and understand your concerns.

And when I first looked into it, I fought it with similar arguments. But I took a stance that if what the Universalists were telling me about hell was true, I wanted to hear enough to truly understand it. I had to study it out for myself.

I'm not concerned with the naysayers. We will probably never be in short supply of that. ​

As I mentioned earlier, the Bible is a Damnationist text. The Western/Latin/Roman Church gave us our Bible, for which I am very grateful. But in contrast to the Eastern church, which was predominately Universalist doctrinally, the church that canonized our Bible were Damnationist. This had an obvious effect on the translation. The Bible therefore has a Damnationist bias.

Therefore we are left to reverse engineer our doctrine from the outcome of the restoration of all things and to address the translation issues.

So, your request for a scriptural basis is nearly impossible. And I'm doing my best as someone who is rather new to this to give you something you can relate to. And frankly, if what we had going was a debate, I think I won the debate. No offense, but you dropped the ball, not me.

The bottom line.
With what I have learned to date, I would rather be a Universalist and be wrong, than a Damnationist and be right. The god the Damnationists have created bears little resemblance to my loving heavenly Father.

Honestly, why would God plan his creation in order to fail in the end? I believe there will be a happy ending to this story. That's something no Damnationist can claim. IMHO

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I dropped the ball because you had nothing to support your belief. I see no winner or loser, I see an empty claim. Just saying.

God cannot be a righteous God without Judgement. He will not tolerate a life of sin and rejection to his Word and in the end say "well that's ok, come be with me."

You call this a story of damnation, I call it a story of outright rebellion.

Charlie24 said:

God cannot be a righteous God without Judgement. He will not tolerate a life of sin and rejection to his Word and in the end say "well that's ok, come be with me."

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That is not the claim of Universalism. The greater hope does not say that a life of sin leads to "well that's ok, come be with me." We will all be salted with fire, even you.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Saint Steven said:

That is not the claim of Universalism. The greater hope does not say that a life of sin leads to "well that's ok, come be with me." We will all be salted with fire, even you.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

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The deeds of the saved will pass through the fire, some will suffer great loss but will be saved from hell.

The unsaved just go straight to hell.

Charlie24 said:

I dropped the ball because you had nothing to support your belief.

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There's that interesting logic again. - lol

Charlie24 said:

The deeds of the saved will pass through the fire, some will suffer great loss but will be saved from hell.

The unsaved just go straight to hell.

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Yes, I think I have heard that before. Try this on for size.

- Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. Every knee.
- Where will this take place? In heaven and on earth and under the earth. (in the realm of the dead)
- No one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
- Only believers have the indwelling Spirit.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Charlie24 said:

The unsaved just go straight to hell.

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Do you believe that the elect were predestined by God?