gentiles to keep from profaning the Sabbath -- even in the OT Sabbath made for mankind

Amen!

Shabbat Shalom @BobRyan

BobRyan said:

Why does God want gentiles to keep from profaning the Sabbath?

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Is there a purpose for this post?
Just what do you expect people or Christians to do?

Be like strict orthodox Jews and not even turn on/off a light on the Sabbeth because the electric spark is fire and making fire is 'work'.

Should they be stoning vehicals driven through 'Christian' areas on the Sabbeth.

Jesus said, the sabbeth was made for man, not man for the sabbeth.
He also pointed out that we are to worship in Spirit and in truth, not through the empty repeating of rituals.

Just whjat would you have Christian do on Sunday?
What would you have Christians do on Saturday ( the sabbeth)

What would you have an unbelieving world do?

How is the world to be made to change?

Tolworth John said:

Is there a purpose for this post?
Just what do you expect people or Christians to do?

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Keep the Sabbath holy.

Be like strict orthodox Jews and not even turn on/off a light on the Sabbeth because the electric spark is fire and making fire is 'work'.

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God commanded rest from working, and putting people to work. That would be working for money, or paying people to work for you

Should they be stoning vehicals driven through 'Christian' areas on the Sabbeth.

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do you stone homosexuals?

Jesus said, the sabbeth was made for man, not man for the sabbeth.
He also pointed out that we are to worship in Spirit and in truth, not through the empty repeating of rituals

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Yes, sabbath was made for HUMANS, not the Jews. The Sabbath was created for humanity to rest on. It was made for us.

how can you worship in spirit and truth if you don’t obey God and follow Messiah’s example to keep the Sabbath holy? Answer: you can’t.

Just whjat would you have Christian do on Sunday?
What would you have Christians do on Saturday ( the sabbeth)

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the first day of the week was never made holy. Believers of Messiah are free to work and go on about their life.

believers in Messiah should be resting from customary work, as God commanded, Friday night sunset through Saturday at sunset.

What would you have an unbelieving world do?

How is the world to be made to change?

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repent, believe in the Messiah and the good news of the kingdom, and obey God’s commandments.

Dkh587 said:

Yes, sabbath was made for HUMANS, not the Jews.

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From this quote you do not consider that the Jews, and Jesus was born a Jew, to be human.

Dkh587 said:

Believers of Messiah are free to work and go on about their life.

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So what are you making a fuss about for?

Dkh587 said:

how can you worship in spirit and truth if you don’t obey God and follow Messiah’s example to keep the Sabbath holy? Answer: you can’t.

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Mmmm so Spiritual worship is done through physical obedience to only one of the 10 commandments.

It is not what Jesaus said, he turned a discussion on physical rituals into a talk on worshipping in Spirit and truth, something you do not apear to understand.

You are saying that we only worship spiritualy when we meet on a saturday.

Paul dealt with this when he had those who insisted on worshipping on saturday or in celebrating moons and others who didn't worship or celebrate anything.

He said do what you like, but do it sincerly in the worship of God.

If saturday worship is your idol go for it, but you do not have the authority or right to demand that others follow you.

Tolworth John said:

From this quote you do not consider that the Jews, and Jesus was born a Jew, to be human.


So what are you making a fuss about for?



Mmmm so Spiritual worship is done through physical obedience to only one of the 10 commandments.

It is not what Jesaus said, he turned a discussion on physical rituals into a talk on worshipping in Spirit and truth, something you do not apear to understand.

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I didn’t say any of that.

Well, the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15) headed by James, attended by Paul and Peter, seem to affirm the standard that the gentile "God Fearers" be held to the same standard as they have all along, even in Ancient Israel.... the Noahide Law. The Shabbat is the sign of the Mosaic Law. It was not part of the Adamic covenant nor of the Abrahamic Covenant nor the Noahide Covenant.

If one wants to put themselves under the Mosaic Law, they must be at least be a proselyte. And that requires all the Mosaic Law observance especially dietary restrictions. No smorgasbord idea of picking and choosing what one wants to observe. The 10 commandments were given as part of the Mosaic Law. Without doing so, it is technically a violation to observe the Mosaic Law.

The dispute in Acts 15 was whether these new gentile believers had to become proselytes and put themselves under the Mosaic Law like the Hebrews. James affirmed that they did not. They are still only commanded to observe the moral code established in the Noahide Law of Genesis 9.

The Noahide Law actually encompasses the 10 Commandments except the Shabbat.

I recommend one check out several videos on YT from Dr. Arnold Fuchtenbaum, a Messianic believer, on this subject. Also, some of the works of Dr. Ken Johnson who is a recognized expert on ancient manuscripts.

Paul wrote:
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. 2Cor3:6-11

Would some believer in keeping the old covenant Sabbath please explain why those verses are not telling us that the glorious, engraven on stone, ten commandments were done away?

If those verses are not telling us that the glorious ten commandments were done away I would like to know what Paul is telling us. What else was engraved in stones that shone glorious in the face of Moses? What does Paul tell us replaced the writings on stone? What was the gift Jesus left for all mankind beginning at Pentecost? Why did Paul write in Gal 3:19 the following: Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. What does TILL mean and who is the Seed?

BobRyan said:

The Sabbath was given in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:11 explicitly points that out - which is why in Mark 2:27 Christ said "The Sabbath was made for mankind" instead of "the Sabbath was made for jews".

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No, the Shabbat was not "given" in terms of a regulatory requirement in Genesis. It was only given as a regulatory requirement in the Mosaic Law. It was the primary sign of the Mosaic Covenant, just as the rainbow was the sign of the Noahide Covenant. And several feast days are called Shabbat. It was not mentioned in the Noahide covenant even though the Noahide covenant law fits most of the 10 commandments like justice, sexual immorality, proper killing of animals for food, no eating blood, prohibition against murder, etc. The things the Jerusalem Council referred to as applying to gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua in Acts 15.

If one is going to make Shabbat a requirement for themselves, they must become a proselyte and take on the entire Mosaic Covenant including dietary laws, circumcision, ceremonial laws, etc. Something that Paul, James, etc said the gentile believers were not to do. It is quite fine and good for some to observe Shabbat as a ritual observance, but to make it a legal idea to be imposed on others is where it crosses the line.

Even in ancient Israel, at the city gates where the judgement courts sat, there was a Mosaic court for the Hebrews and proselytes who were under the Mosaic Covenant and a Noahide court for gentiles living in the land.

We are one in Messiah, no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the Messiah, but there is indeed a distinction in the physical realm. Just like there is neither a male or female distinction in Messiah, but certainly a distinction in the physical realm.

That passage in Isaiah 56 is referring to gentiles and normal outcasts under the old Mosaic Covenant who live in the future Messianic Kingdom. Not gentiles everywhere else today, and one cannot legitimately apply the Mosaic Covenant requirement of Shabbat on gentiles today, even believing gentiles. Of course, when in Israel, the legal requirements of the Shabbat were in force as it was a national law. But keep in mind, a gentile, even in the land of Israel could eat pork, shellfish, and other items that a Hebrew under the Mosaic law could not.

For instance....

Deuteronomy 14:21 (NKJV) "You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God.
"You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk.

I would expect some like R.C. Sproul to push the idea you are as he is solidly in the replacement theology camp. As are Eastern Orthodox and RCC. But even Paul, arguably one of the most educated Hebrew scholars of his day, and defined the basis of Christian systematic theology, did not agree with you. Nor did James, the brother of Yeshua and head of the Jerusalem church. Both did not require gentile believers outside the land of Israel to observe Shabbat.

The 10 Commandments were part of the Mosaic Law. If one is going to take on the idea that all 10 Commandments are required, then they also are required to take on all the Mosaic Law. No smorgasbord nonsense and no delineation. If you take on the Mosaic Law, any portion of it, you are putting yourself under the totality of it.

The Noahide Laws were all that have ever been required of gentiles, even those who believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And those Noahide law requirements are part of the 10 commandments. The only variation is no requirement of Shabbat. Shabbat was a sign of the Mosaic Covenant given specifically to the Hebrew people.

I will concede, that during the Messianic Kingdom, Shabbat will be part of that legal system incumbent on all in the kingdom, just like observing the Feast of Tabernacles and other things. I know that "dispensations" is a dirty word to some, but each covenant has been a dispensation of differing legal requirements. And not all of those covenants and their respective legal requirements apply to everyone and every time.

Bob Ryan wrote:

God says specifically that the gentiles are blessed when they "keep from profaning the Sabbath" - which means there is such a thing as profaning the Sabbath for gentiles and the ones blessed in Isaiah 56 are the ones not doing that.

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Copperhead wrote:

That passage in Isaiah 56 is referring to gentiles and normal outcasts under the old Mosaic Covenant who live in the future Messianic Kingdom. Not gentiles everywhere else today, and one cannot legitimately apply the Mosaic Covenant requirement of Shabbat on gentiles today, even believing gentiles.

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6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

After analyzing verses 6 and 7 I have come to the conclusion that Isaiah wrote there something like he did in chapter 65 where he wrote glimpses of the new Earth. Man would live as long as trees and babies would not die as infants. He also wrote that those who are accursed will die at an early age. Eventually everyone will die according to the account.

Why would he write verse 7 that Gentiles would be making burning animals as sacrifices? The final sacrifice has already been made. Where is the need to burn animals? The New Testament teaches heaven as being the eternal home of those who die as faithful servants of God. Nowhere, that I am aware, does it teach anything about a "Messianic kingdom" or going back to the covenants that requires man to sacrifice animals. Isaiah also wrote in Is 65 that man would not remember the past then in Is 66 he tells us that we will go out on Sabbath and walk among the dead bodies on which worms would be feasting.

The fact is I would not concede anything to what Bob Ryan has written. Copperhead, your post #17 is right on. Thank you for so eloquently presented the truth to Bob and those reading the posts. We have to examine everything Bob writes. His fixation on Sabbath observance has clouded his ability to recognize the true meaning of some scripture. Verses 6 and 7 of chapter 56 certainly doesn't make any sense in determining whether Gentiles were under under the laws of the Sinai covenant. The covenant was directly given to those at Sinai. For instance the civilizations, like Egypt and those living in what is now modern Iraq were never informed of the rituals required of Israel yet they go back much further than Israel. To this day there is no written record indicating God revealing that they must observe the Sabbath in order to be saved. Nothing in their written historical facts reveal that they were required to keep Saturday as being Holy.

P.S. All scripture is inspired. Some like Is 56, 65 and 66 will need Devine explaining.