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gentiles to keep from profaning the Sabbath -- even in the OT Sabbath made for mankind

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by BobRyan, Dec 14, 2019.

  1. Cribstyl

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    Who said that God required all of planet earth to move to Israel? Excuse my poor communication and wrong reference chapter. I meant that God required the Gentiles who accompanied the group leaving Egypt, to keep Passover and be circumcised. Circumcision is a sign of the Abrahamic covenant.
    Exo 12:48
    And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.


    I agree with Copperhead that living among Jews does not change your nationality. Becoming a Christian is different. It is a relationship with God and brethren.

    In the scripture Sabbath was not required because it was "NOT"given as yet.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  2. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Exodus 12:48 is talking about those who would be proselytes and place themselves as under the Mosaic Covenant and become one with Israel. It does not talk about gentiles that happen to be living in the land of Israel. Even in scripture, there is a delineation between legal requirements for Hebrews and those who join with them under the Mosaic Covenant and those who just happen to be living in Israel. For instance....

    Deuteronomy 14:21 (NKJV) 1 "You shall not eat anything that dies of itself; you may give it to the alien who is within your gates, that he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner; for you are a holy people to the Lord your God.
    "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother's milk.

    Exodus 12:48 is claiming that it is illegal for a non Hebrew that is not a proselyte and places themselves under the Mosaic Covenant to observe the Passover. It does not require that every gentile who dwells in Israel be under the requirements of the Mosaic Covenant that was given to the Hebrews when they came out of Egypt.

    Essentially, Exodus 12:48 is saying that if one living in Israel wants to celebrate and eat the Passover meal, they must become a full member of both the Abrahamic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant.

    So, even though I am a believer in the Messiah and have placed my trust in Him, I am not under the Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenant made with Israel and am not required to observe Shabbat which is the major sign of the Mosaic Covenant and I can still have a bacon cheeseburger or enjoy a batch of battered, deep fried oysters anytime I want and not be in sin.

    Becoming a Christian does not place me under either the Abrahamic or Mosaic Covenants. James, Peter, and Paul were very clear about that. James made it clear I am only under the moral law that was given to Adam and Noah (commonly known as the Noahide Laws) and binding on all humanity for which the world will be judged according to Paul in Romans 1.

    The Hebrew Roots Movement and its variants that have been with us almost since day one of the Church, I can understand their zeal, but it is zeal that can lead to all sorts of errors and problems. And it can, many times, relegate the unconditional redemption thru Messiah to the back burner.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  3. Bob S

    Bob S Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand and agree with what you have written up to the point where you indicate that Jews are under the Mosaic covenant. I read Acts 21 and it puzzles me that Paul didn't defend his teaching that Jews were not under the law. After reading Gal 3 and 4 it is evident that indeed he did teach that the Mosaic covenant was no longer binding on anyone and never was binding on gentiles. Furthermore his letter to the Ephesians in Eph 2 tells us Jesus made two groups one by removing the barrier which was the Laws of the Mosaic covenant.
    In Matt 5 Jesus tell us He came to fulfil the prophecies. It is reasonable to believe it was the prophecies concerning His coming. Fulfil there means to bring to fruition or end. Would not in the same statement about the law carry the same connotation, fulfilled meaning bring to an end? He stated that every jot of the law would remain until what He came to do was fulfilled. So, where does Judah and Israel stand at this time? Are they without a covenant relationship with Jesus? Jeremiah certainly didn't write such. He said the old covenant would be replaced with a new and better covenant. It would not be like the old one. Those who believe we are still under the laws of the old covenant tell us that indeed it is the same covenant. There is no way they can justify their belief according to the words of Jesus and the writings of Paul.
     
  4. Cribstyl

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    False Mark 2:27 does not say "mankind", It says "man" (anthrōpos). The falsehood is that 'anthropos' implies "all mankind on the seventh day of creation. All authorized bibles uses "man". It would be more reasonable to use "human" to paraphrase what Jesus meant.

    NO, it says explicitly that God rested on the seventh day
    Thanks for exposing how 'creation Sabbath' is a false doctrine of the SDA church.
    Here's the truth.
    The facts established in Gen 2:1-3 are these.
    Gen 2:1 ¶Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    ( God's work of creating the heavens and the earth was FINISHED in 6 day. Finish implies no more work.)

    Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    ( Ending and then resting from all His work, definitely mean a completed work. Resting on the Seventh day of creation is what God did because He was finished. Where is giving man rest in this narrative of the 7 days of creation? As you can read, it's not in this text or the first verse.)

    Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
    (The reason why the 7th day of creation is blessed and made Holy, had nothing to do about man. It is bless and made Holy because it's the place of God's rest, ON HIS THRONE IN THE HEAVENS. The Seventh day is the place of God's rest. God's rest is a place to enter.
    Isa 66:1Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?
    Tools
    Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?


    Gen2:1-3 does not say that Sabbath is blessed and made Holy for man. It say that God rested on the Seventh day.
    And He blessed and made the 7th day of creation blessed and Holy. The fact that Sabbath is a SIGN of God's rest is a fact according to scripture.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Mark 2:27 is it is specifically made "for mankind"
    Ex 20:11 says it began in Genesis 2 when it was sanctified for holy use.
    Genesis 2:1-3 says the same.

    Ex 20:8-11
    8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

    keep reading.

    Gen 2:1-3
    Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

    Keep reading... it is not rocks that Keep the Sabbath holy - it is mankind

    Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man (mankind), and not man (mankind) made for the Sabbath.

    Both the Sabbath and mankind "made" in that 7 day week of Genesis 1-2:3

    A distinction without a difference.

    "man does not live by bread alone" -- Matthew 4... another reference to "mankind"

    444 ánthrōposman, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men (Mt 4:19, 12:12, etc.).


    (That was easy)
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  6. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    the account of Acts 21, James is talking about how many Jews are zealous for the Torah and think that Paul is teaching the Jews who live in the diaspora to forsake the Torah. So that Paul could prove those accusations were false, James wanted Paul to go to the temple and do the offering of the Nazarite vow.

    so both James and Paul affirm that for Hebrews, even believers in Messiah, the Mosaic Covenant is valid.

    But James in Acts 15 is categorically clear along with Peter and Paul that the Gentiles who are coming in via faith in Messiah not be burdened with being accountable to the Mosaic Covenant.

    To make gentiles accountable to the Mosaic Covenant is legalism, which Paul goes to great lengths to condemn, even chastising Peter about it in Antioch as Paul writes in Galatians 2.

    I don't believe Paul ever taught that Hebrews who are in Messiah are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant and its requirements. In several places he did make the case that it is not the Law of the Mosaic covenant that imputes righteousness on the Hebrew, but it is the faith in Messiah that does that. But Paul is very clear in Romans that the Mosaic Law is still good and applicable to the Hebrews.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  7. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Yes, of course... Exodus 20 for those under the Mosaic Covenant which this requirement was given! You cannot find a passage of scripture that requires gentiles, even believing gentiles, outside of the land of Israel to observe Shabbat like it was expressed to the Hebrew people. And a gentile who comes to faith in Messiah is not then under the Mosaic Covenant which was made with Israel when it came out of Egypt.

    And who was Yeshua talking to in Mark 2:27..... HEBREWS! And while the Lord did indeed bless the 7th day and make it Holy, there was never a requirement for human observation of it in the Adamic Covenant, Noahic Covenant, or the Abrahamic Covenant, and there is no evidence in scripture up to the Mosaic Covenant, for 2000 years since the creation, that it was observed by anyone.

    To take make the case that it is now binding on those outside the Mosaic Covenant is faulty and playing fast and loose with scripture. Along with putting a guilt trip on believers that no one has any scriptural authority to impose.

    It will indeed be a part of the Messianic Kingdom, of that I have no doubt. But that doesn't give one license to mandate it on anyone outside the Mosaic Covenant in this present age. One is free to observe it if they so choose, and my hat is off to them and they will get no grief from me. But they step over the line if they try to lay some sort of guilt trip on me or other gentile believers for not observing as they do. No one is ever going to guilt me into some watering down of the Gospel that redemption is thru Messiah....plus whatever added on like Shabbat observance or any other ritualistic requirement. I am only subject to the moral standard establish via the Adamic Covenant and Noahic Covenant that is the basis of the judgement of the world according to Romans 1.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  8. Cribstyl

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    That's specifically false. Name 1 bible that uses "mankind" for Mark 2:27. It would alter what Jesus is talking about. You'd have to be desperate to alter the truth in this matter Bob. Here what Jesus is saying
    And he said to them, The sabbath was made on account of man, not man on account of the sabbath;
    By inserting the word" Mankind" for "man", in this context, it would change everything. Therein lies the slight of SDA.
    Shell game Bob, It's saying God rested on the Seventh day Bob. It's not saying that "God rested on Sabbath day."
    True, deception can be as easy as adding a comma. Only SDA will wrap themselves in this scam. SDA want you to believe that Ex20:10 saying " The 7th day is the Sabbath of the Lord" means to say God rested on the Sabbath day, and not the 7th day of creation. They twist the contextual narrative from How to keep a weekly Sabbath to, God kept a Sabbath in creation. Moses had already explained to the COI that Sabbath is kept unto God. Yes, it's God's Sabbath, Yes, it God's law, but who is obligated to keep it. Man or God?
    Exo 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
    Exo 16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

    SDA have to ignore Moses saying exclusively to the Children of Israel; The Lord have given you the Sabbath

    A few points of facts are: Ex 20 makes it clear that God rested of the Seventh day and now commands the COI to rest on the Sabbath day, which is also blessed and sanctified.
    Saying "Sabbath of the Lord or Law of God", obligates man, not God.
    The law of first mention established that Sabbath is a rest kept unto the Lord.

    By the way Bob, repeating a lie does not make it truth. I admire the gymnastics you do by referencing words and partial quotes from multiple scriptures at the same time. Then you ignore responses and double down on the same debunked material. Try staying in context of God's word.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2020
  9. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    Indeed. And there are other "sabbaths" than the 7th day. If one does not take off from work on Yom Kippur (day of atonement), then they are violation the Sabbath. The Lord is quite clear in Leviticus 23 that Yom Kippur is a Sabbath. I wonder how many of these "sabbath keepers" took Wednesday, October 9, 2019 off from work to observe the sabbath.

    Likewise, during Passover week, there are two sabbaths.... the Passover Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath. They are not the same, nor do they always fall on the same day. Yet both are declared by the Lord as 'sabbaths'.

    Again, Feast of Sukkot (tabernacles) is a Sabbath. How many sabbath keepers took Monday, October 14th, 2019 off from work to observe the sabbath?

    Those that really play the sabbath observance game dig a hole for themselves pretty quickly. It is why James, Peter, Paul did not put this on the Gentiles as a requirement.

    I am not sure why folks willingly like to burden themselves with stuff that they are not obligated to do. I find the moral law as established by the Adamic and Noahic covenants quite enough to deal with. James felt the same way in Acts 15. And Paul shows that is the standard that the world will be judged by in Romans 1.

    Some folks are just gluttons for making their lives more difficult. The motivation to turn the freedom of the redemption thru Messiah into a works righteousness game is something that seems to be ingrained into the human experience. That somehow the redemption thru Messiah is just not enough and we have to add stuff to it. The basis of every false religion on the planet, that we have to 'climb that ladder' to become worthy.

    They need to stand on the street corner with a sign that says.... 'will work for salvation'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2020
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    True - but only one of them "made for mankind" in Genesis 2:1-3 according to Mark 2:27 such that for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23

    And the 7th day weekly Sabbath observance requires no animal sacrifice at all.. as we see in Genesis 2 and as would be for all eternity after the cross.
     
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  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Mark 2:27 is it is specifically made "for mankind"
    Ex 20:11 says it began in Genesis 2 when it was sanctified for holy use.
    Genesis 2:1-3 says the same.

    Ex 20:8-11
    8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD (YHWH) your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

    keep reading.

    Gen 2:1-3
    Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

    Keep reading... it is not rocks that Keep the Sabbath holy - it is mankind

    Mark 2:27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man (mankind), and not man (mankind) made for the Sabbath.

    Both the Sabbath and mankind "made" in that 7 day week of Genesis 1-2:3

    A distinction without a difference.

    "man does not live by bread alone" -- Matthew 4... another reference to "mankind"

    444 ánthrōposman, also the generic term for "mankind"; the human race; people, including women and men (Mt 4:19, 12:12, etc.).


    (That was easy)

    You have free will to believe whatever you wish.

    Not in real life - in real life Isaiah 56;6-8 exists at the same time that the book of Exodus exists and all of it is the Word of God. including where God specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping blessings and in Isaiah 66:23 reminds us that the Sabbath is for "all mankind" just as in Mark 2:7.

    "Mankind does not live by bread alone but by every WORD that proceeds from the mouth of God" is not a statement about "just Jews" or "just men and not women" as we all know.

    Obviously
     
  12. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And even the 7th day Shabbat was only commanded to be observed as part of the Mosaic Covenant. There is no evidence that it was observed for almost 2000 years. And since I am not a party to the Mosaic Covenant, I am under no obligation to observe the Shabbat in this time frame. I can observe if I choose to, as others can. But I am under no obligation and that is clear from James, Paul, etc.
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    On the contrary - for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

    The Sabbath and mankind were MADE in Gen 1-2 at creation and Christ tells us that then "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27

    Legal code in God's word points to the Sabbath being made at creation Exodus 20:11
    "11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

    Is 56
    6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
    To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
    To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
    And holds fast My covenant;
    7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
    And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
    Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
    For My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.”

    And since the NEW Covenant is in the OT Jer 31:31-33 I am under the New Covenant. In which "God writes His LAW on heart and mind"
     
  14. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    I think I have stated that I have no doubt that during the Messianic Kingdom, Shabbat observance will be part of it right along with feast of tabernacles and others ceremonial stuff. But that still doesn't negate that there was no official Shabbat observance for 2000 years from Adam to the Mosaic Covenant. And it still doesn't negate that gentile believers are not under the Mosaic covenant but as James, Paul, Peter all agreed, the gentile believers were to observe the moral code of the Noahaide covenant.

    Is says the Shabbat was made for Man, but that doesn't support a requirement of it's observance by man. There is no mandate given in Genesis until the Exodus from Egypt that the Shabbat was central to anything. Also, Yeshua was talking to Hebrews that were part of the Mosaic Covenant. See above. The Shabbat is the sign of the Mosaic Covenant like circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Neither of which is mandated upon gentiles who are redeemed by Messiah.

    Indeed, the legal code of the Mosaic Covenant. Now if one wants to put themselves under the Mosaic Covenant, feel free to do so. I am not Hebrew, and I am under no obligation to put myself under the Mosaic Covenant and the scripture says I am not required to. Job, generally accepted as the earliest book in the Scripture, does not mention Shabbat once or even the seventh day. Yet Job knew that he would be raised again and see the Lord standing upon the earth.

    For those that want to be legalists in this regard, I am not going to try and stop you. But as gentile who has placed his trust in the Messiah of Israel, I am more than confident that I am not required to place myself under the legalism of the Mosaic Covenant. I like the Mosaic Covenant in what it teaches of the Messiah.

    Salvation is by faith and the just will live by faith. Not by the Mosaic Covenant. And there is only one salvation, thru Messiah. The free redemption offered to anyone who places their trust in Him, and they are then sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day their body is redeemed for eternity as well. Anything added to that as a condition of salvation is another Gospel, not the simple true Gospel of Yeshua, which seems to be a stumbling block to so many.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
  15. HARK!

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    I threw out my calendar for last year. I don't remember when the barley was abib in Israel last year, nor when I sighted the first sliver of the new moon which followed; but I know that all my dates were off from the Hillel Calendar.

    Which did you follow, YHWH's calendar of the Torah, or the man made imitation calendar of Hillel?

    I took off the dates according to YHWH's word; and as a fish swimming up stream, it wasn't easy explaining that to everyone.
     
  16. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    The point was not so much specific dates or which particular calendar, but that if one is going to demand keeping of the Mosaic Law, then one has to keep all of it. It is not a smorgasbord thing where one gets to pick and choose.

    But since I am not under the Mosaic Covenant, I get to sit back and watch all the fun go on between legalists that seem to want to muddy up the simple Gospel of Yeshua and go against what James, Peter, and Paul determined was for gentile believers to adhere to.
     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    What is the Gospel of Yahshua?

    Matthew 7:23 - New Living Translation

    But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'
     
  18. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (NKJV) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,

    1 Corinthians 15:14 (NKJV) And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.

    The Gospel is so simple that many stumble over it. It is redemption offered as a free gift for those who place their trust in Yeshua, who died for their redemption, was buried, and was risen to effect the redemption and eternal life of all those who trust in Him.

    And context if everything in scripture just like location is everything in real estate....

    Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

    Yeshua is talking about a personal relationship with Him which comes by trusting in Him, not a works righteousness gig.

    John 3:18-21 (NKJV) "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
     
  19. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!
     
  20. Copperhead

    Copperhead Newbie Supporter

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    And what is lawlessness but to refuse to believe on the One who the Father has sent.

    John 17:20-21 (NKJV) I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

    1 John 3:23 (NKJV) And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

    There is only one commandment that is central.... believing on the Son.

    Matthew 22:36-40 (NKJV) "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
    37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

    Everything centers on believing the Father and believing in the Son. If you notice, the statement in Matthew 22 is mirrored by John as "the" commandment of the Father.

    Anything else waters down the simple Gospel and makes it of no effect.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2020
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