Salvation is a process of co-operation between man and God

Guojing said:

Well I don’t rip off my ot off my bible even though most of it after abram starting from genesis 12, are written to the Jews.

I love reading the 4 gospels to read about Jesus lessons to the Jews, but I know they are not directed to me

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I believe you need more clarity...all true believers are referred to as Jews in the NT and the entire Bible speaks to and is applicable to ALL peoples...you too.
See Romans 11! We Gentiles (once unbelievers were referred to as the Gentiles) are grafted into the *tree* of the Jews.

redleghunter said:

God makes it possible for us to be cooperative by His Grace as we become His workmanship in Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10).

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Our Apostle Paul says >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, to me this means God in my will does the work to get me to will what He wants, plus God in me has me succeeding in doing what is "for His good pleasure."

And before God gets me to will and do what He wants > am I smart enough to figure out what He wants me to do . . . at any moment? And can I turn my own nature into being gentle and humble like Jesus so I am pleasing to God while doing something? I . . . we . . . need God, for all.

David Neos said:

I think most agree God makes the cooperation possible.

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"And we have such trust through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God," (2 Corinthians 3:5)

So, cooperating with God does not mean we puppet our own selves to do what we think He is telling us to do. But we submit to how God has us loving >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

So, cooperation includes how we submit to how our Father personally rules us in our "hearts" with His own peace. And He is better than we are; so we keep discovering ourselves doing better than what we could understand and get our own selves to do.

flowing with Him . . . or like skin on your hand does what you have your hand doing

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

God changes us to be gentle and quiet in His love, so then we can be submissive like Jesus is. We leave behind our human free will, I would say, in depending on Him in us. And God is quiet, not silent!! In us He quietly succeeds in His peace which is almighty against all the cruel and wrong things which would violate our attention away from being personally ruled in God's own peace.

Yes, I believe Salvation from God is absolutely a process. We aren't born again to immediate maturity, otherwise Jesus would have given that a different term. This process is seen throughout the Bible.

throughfireytrial said:

I believe you need more clarity...all true believers are referred to as Jews in the NT and the entire Bible speaks to and is applicable to ALL peoples...you too.
See Romans 11! We Gentiles (once unbelievers were referred to as the Gentiles) are grafted into the *tree* of the Jews.

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In the body of Christ, there is neither jew Nor gentile, that I agree.

But that boc did not exist during the 4 gospels. As Paul reminded us gentiles in Ephesians 2:11-12, during that time, we were without God and without hope in the world.

BCsenior said:

By born again you mean eternally secure, right?

I'm interested ... what do you think about my signature below?
Who is Paul writing to?

Is it possible for a born-again Christian to be a slave of sin,
which is to say a habitual sinner?

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How do you define habitual? There was a man in the church at Corinth sleeping with his stepmother. Paul told the church to make him leave. Was he going to hell at that point? Then Paul said to restore the man to fellowship. Was he then going to heaven? Yes, the spirit of the born again is eternal. John said that whatever is born of God does not sin. The only part of us that is born of God is the new spirit. Now if an individual refuses to turn away from sin, refuses to denounce it and renounce it, then sorry, he/she is not born again. John also says that if anyone says that they have no sin, they are a liar. God only saves sinners. Paul went from "the least of the apostles" to "the least of the saints" to the "chief of sinners". If he did not make it into heaven, it's going to be a pretty lonely place for the few who do make it.
What is at stake is the salvation of the soul in this life and placement in the Kingdom of God in the next. Sure, obedience to the revealed will of God and the leading in our spirit man is vital and should be taught far more rigorously. But it not a condition of salvation as in receiving eternal life.
I died and my life is hidden in Christ with God. I am righteous because Christ is righteous. My righteousness will never be acceptable to God (I know because He told me directly). I am accepted in the beloved, not because of anything I do, say or stop doing. My starting point is in Christ, not in myself. Lord Jesus is my wisdom and sanctification. I experience that when I walk in the truth of it, not when I try harder to be a good Christian. I tried that and failed miserably. Walk in the spirit, it's the only way to go.

Basil the Great said:

That is the first time that I have heard such a claim, though I suppose you could be right. I guess anything is possible....

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surely you have came across Matthew 15:24?

Paul repeated that point in Romans 15:8

Yes, indeed... but I have never seen any Christian today make such a statement.

Basil the Great said:

Yes, indeed... but I have never seen any Christian today make such a statement.

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Many Churches now preach almost exclusively from the 4 gospels.

It is thus understandable why many don’t remember those passages.

Paul himself wrote in 2 Timothy 4:16, on the last days of his life, that the judaizers have won.

Guojing said:

In the body of Christ, there is neither jew Nor gentile, that I agree.

But that boc did not exist during the 4 gospels. As Paul reminded us gentiles in Ephesians 2:11-12, during that time, we were without God and without hope in the world.

Click to expand...

Forgive me, but what does boc stand for?

Guojing said:

It’s very simple to me. Under the gospel of grace preached by Paul to all gentiles, salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

There was a gospel of the kingdom preached to the Jews during the 4 gospels.

Under that gospel, which is now postponed, salvation was by faith AND works.

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Ephesians 2:8-11:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

throughfireytrial said:

I agree with both of you only with exceptions. The OP forgets to mention that if one sins/stumbles/falls one needs to take that to the Lord for heartfelt repentance and remembering that the days are evil and the evil foe is ready to attack...even against those efforts to do good works...some may experience a putting out of the Spirit's fire (which is sin) we can encourage such folks as a good deed example.
I believe it to be very bad practice to suppose one can *work* one's way to heaven also...that is to discredit God's work on the cross. However, what is said about sanctification in the OP is excellent if one is doing it with a desire to work hard in God's Kingdom...Ephesians says...
Ephesians 2:10:
For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
and...
Matthew 22:10-12:
So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

“But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

(I believe the wedding clothes are faith and deeds here or perhaps even only good deeds)
and...
Revelations 19:7-9:
Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!
For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

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Want to add, very importantly...
Philippians 2:13:
...it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

BCsenior said:

Believers are accountable to the Lord God who saved them!
Dozens of NT verses teach that their salvation is conditional.
After the Holy Spirit indwells them, they are sanctified (set apart)
for further sanctification unto holiness. During this process, believers
are required to co-operate with the Holy Spirit’s efforts to sanctify them,
and to overcome sin, Satan, persecution, etc. (see Revelation 3:21).
There is only space below for some of the topics and “proof text” verses …

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are obedient
This is about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands. Continuing obedience is
what “being faithful” means. True believers love Jesus, and want to follow and obey Him!
● “If you love Me, obey My commandments …
Those who accept My commandments and obey them are the ones who love Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will obey My word” (John 14:15-23)
Truly, does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus?

Believers are obedient IF they are NOT habitual sinners
● “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)
● “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past,
that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

Believers are righteous IF they practice righteousnesss
● “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.
He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin (habitually) …
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does
NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT love his brother.” (1 John 3:7-10)
Believers who are “faithful” will be obedient to Jesus’ commandments, and will practice righteousness!
● “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
● “… who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are repenting
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as being opposite sides of the same coin.
… John used believe since this term included all of these ideas.” (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
When they were first saved, believers were ONLY forgiven of their PAST sins …
● “… forgetting that they have been cleansed from their old sins.” (2 Peter 1:9)
“former sins” (NASB, ESV) --- “past sins” (NIV, HCSB) --- “old sins” (NKJV, NLT, RSV)
● “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Confession needs to be followed by repentance!
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness,
from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them” (The Applied New Testament Commentary)

Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
● “God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor … God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives … anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
● “God has given us everything we need to live a godly life … Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen … It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it, and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life”
(2 Peter 1:3, 1:10, 2:21)
● “God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
… work at living a holy life, for those who are NOT holy will NOT see the Lord.
… Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking.” (Hebrews 12:10-25)

Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!
Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!
● “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
should not perish but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:16)
● “… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you
continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)
● “It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

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@BCsenior , I am so happy to read this, and so happy for you, brother. Onward, friend. You are grasping a true gem of theologal Truth. Glory to God.

throughfireytrial said:

Ephesians 2:8-11:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Click to expand...

Yes, one is definitely saved for good works, I agree.

But they don't change your relationship with God in anyway.

If you happen to believe in God for healing, for prosperity for example, don't have the idea that "God did not heal me or prosper me because I did not do enough good works".

throughfireytrial said:

Forgive me, but what does boc stand for?

Click to expand...

Body of Christ

Guojing said:

Yes, one is definitely saved for good works, I agree.

But they don't change your relationship with God in anyway.

If you happen to believe in God for healing, for prosperity for example, don't have the idea that "God did not heal me or prosper me because I did not do enough good works".

Click to expand...

I have answered fully in post #59, Page 3...I am aware that faith and salvation are gifts of God and gifts of God alone and only..Ephesians 2:8...predestination proves this out also. We are not saved by works...works are an outgrowth of our love and faith and those works are done by God and through us...see Philippians 2:13 on this particular point. Works are also preordained and required.

i love the way you use the word Cooperation


....i would say salvation is all by God, sanctifcation is more cooperation...


but like


when someone pours a drink for me, i cooperate by bringing a glass and holding it under the drink he pours


but the guy pouring the drink is doing the real work, he's the one with the goods


in the same way, God's the one with the goods, he's doing the work

BCsenior said:

Believers are accountable to the Lord God who saved them!
Dozens of NT verses teach that their salvation is conditional.
After the Holy Spirit indwells them, they are sanctified (set apart)
for further sanctification unto holiness. During this process, believers
are required to co-operate with the Holy Spirit’s efforts to sanctify them,
and to overcome sin, Satan, persecution, etc. (see Revelation 3:21).
There is only space below for some of the topics and “proof text” verses …

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are obedient
This is about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands. Continuing obedience is
what “being faithful” means. True believers love Jesus, and want to follow and obey Him!
● “If you love Me, obey My commandments …
Those who accept My commandments and obey them are the ones who love Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will obey My word” (John 14:15-23)
Truly, does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus?

Believers are obedient IF they are NOT habitual sinners
● “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)
● “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past,
that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

Believers are righteous IF they practice righteousnesss
● “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.
He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin (habitually) …
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does
NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT love his brother.” (1 John 3:7-10)
Believers who are “faithful” will be obedient to Jesus’ commandments, and will practice righteousness!
● “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
● “… who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are repenting
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as being opposite sides of the same coin.
… John used believe since this term included all of these ideas.” (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
When they were first saved, believers were ONLY forgiven of their PAST sins …
● “… forgetting that they have been cleansed from their old sins.” (2 Peter 1:9)
“former sins” (NASB, ESV) --- “past sins” (NIV, HCSB) --- “old sins” (NKJV, NLT, RSV)
● “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Confession needs to be followed by repentance!
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness,
from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them” (The Applied New Testament Commentary)

Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
● “God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor … God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives … anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
● “God has given us everything we need to live a godly life … Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen … It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it, and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life”
(2 Peter 1:3, 1:10, 2:21)
● “God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
… work at living a holy life, for those who are NOT holy will NOT see the Lord.
… Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking.” (Hebrews 12:10-25)

Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!
Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!
● “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
should not perish but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:16)
● “… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you
continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)
● “It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

Click to expand...

Loving God and one another are the commandments all others fall under which makes perfect sense since God is love.Faith is also the other necessity, everything works by faith. It is done unto you as you believe Christ tells us over and over again, done unto you according to your faith! We are living in a righteous system where faith either positive or negative, which is fear, creates circumstance. That is why we are told to believe you receive when one asks in prayer. Glory to God, it is all quite wondrous! Love one another! May all be blessed...

BCsenior said:

Believers are accountable to the Lord God who saved them!
Dozens of NT verses teach that their salvation is conditional.
After the Holy Spirit indwells them, they are sanctified (set apart)
for further sanctification unto holiness. During this process, believers
are required to co-operate with the Holy Spirit’s efforts to sanctify them,
and to overcome sin, Satan, persecution, etc. (see Revelation 3:21).
There is only space below for some of the topics and “proof text” verses …

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are obedient
This is about obedience to Jesus’ teachings and commands. Continuing obedience is
what “being faithful” means. True believers love Jesus, and want to follow and obey Him!
● “If you love Me, obey My commandments …
Those who accept My commandments and obey them are the ones who love Me …
If anyone loves Me, he will obey My word” (John 14:15-23)
Truly, does anyone get into heaven who does not love Jesus?

Believers are obedient IF they are NOT habitual sinners
● “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey,
you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether (slaves) of sin leading to death,
or (slaves) of obedience leading to righteousness?
… so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.” (Romans 6:16-19)
● “Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish
ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like;
of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past,
that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21)

Believers are righteous IF they practice righteousnesss
● “… let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous just as He is righteous.
He who sins is of the devil … Whoever has been born of God does NOT sin (habitually) …
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: whoever does
NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God, NOR is he who does NOT love his brother.” (1 John 3:7-10)
Believers who are “faithful” will be obedient to Jesus’ commandments, and will practice righteousness!
● “… you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.” (1 John 2:29)
● “… who fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him” (Acts 10:35)

Believers are in a saved condition IF they are repenting
“Repent (metanoeo) and believe (pisteou) may be understood as being opposite sides of the same coin.
… John used believe since this term included all of these ideas.” (The Holman Christian Standard Bible)
When they were first saved, believers were ONLY forgiven of their PAST sins …
● “… forgetting that they have been cleansed from their old sins.” (2 Peter 1:9)
“former sins” (NASB, ESV) --- “past sins” (NIV, HCSB) --- “old sins” (NKJV, NLT, RSV)
● “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)
Confession needs to be followed by repentance!
“This is an extremely important verse … all men need to be repeatedly purified from all unrighteousness,
from all their sins … We must confess our sins and turn from them” (The Applied New Testament Commentary)

Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
● “God’s will is for you to be holy … live in holiness and honor … God has called us to live holy lives, not impure lives … anyone who refuses to live by these rules is rejecting God.”
(1 Thessalonians 4:3-8)
● “God has given us everything we need to live a godly life … Work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen … It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it, and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life”
(2 Peter 1:3, 1:10, 2:21)
● “God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
… work at living a holy life, for those who are NOT holy will NOT see the Lord.
… Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking.” (Hebrews 12:10-25)

Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
In the NT, the Greek indicates that “believe” is a present tense imperative verb!
Yes, a continuing belief-faith is necessary for continuing salvation-eternal life!
● “… whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
may have [present tense: may continue to have] eternal life. For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes [present tense: continues to believe] in Him
should not perish but have [present tense: continue to have] eternal life.” (John 3:16)
● “… to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight — IF indeed you
continue in the faith … and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel” (Colossians 1:22-23)
● “It is this Good News (the gospel) that saves you,
IF you continue to believe the message I told you” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)

Click to expand...

Tell me about that thief who Jesus said would, "see him in Paradise before the day was over"?

Tell me about all those Romans who believed and a few days later were rounded up and fed to lions and bears and a few other grisly endings.

Tell me about D.L. Moody who during the American civil war went to the battlefield giving the Gospel to dying men. Was his work in vain.

You see according to your teaching you may as well give someone the gospel then shoot them to make sure they don't stray away.

Our positions in heaven will be determined by our maturity in the Spirit on earth. Your teaching is works based and not Spirit based.

Swan7 said:

Yes, I believe Salvation from God is absolutely a process. We aren't born again to immediate maturity, otherwise Jesus would have given that a different term. This process is seen throughout the Bible.

Click to expand...

So what was the process that saved the thief on the cross next to Jesus. Note it was only about 4 hours and he wasn't baptized and he couldn't go through any sanctification.

throughfireytrial said:

I have answered fully in post #59, Page 3...I am aware that faith and salvation are gifts of God and gifts of God alone and only..Ephesians 2:8...predestination proves this out also. We are not saved by works...works are an outgrowth of our love and faith and those works are done by God and through us...see Philippians 2:13 on this particular point. Works are also preordained and required.

Click to expand...

Well, the word "required" always sets off alarm bells to me.

When you say "required", what exactly do you mean, required for what?