I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore

A Realist · Nov 5, 2019

Carl Emerson said:
That doesn't mean we should advise soldiers to go AWOL.

I wasn't suggesting he leave Christianity...just the organized church.

the last child · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
Well, I simply disagree. I've seen enough over my 48-year association with "Christianity" to reach the conclusion that I have reached. It's not a matter of whether there are pockets of Christ-likeness and do-goodness within "Christianity." There are pockets of Christ-likeness and do-goodness within Buddhism, Islam, atheism, Scientology, Walmart and everywhere else that humans are found. In my experience and observation, there is no more or less of this within "Christianity" than anywhere else, which is not what we would expect to find in a community uniquely indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in the process of sanctification. Nor is there any less worship of money, fame and sex, which is likewise not what we would expect to find. I've known a comparative handful of people in my life who truly seemed to have a Christ-like spirit and to lead Christ-like lives (I'm not one of them, by a long shot); maybe half of them claimed any association with Christianity, the rest did not.

There is a consistent misunderstanding here that I am squawking about "What I think is wrong with Christianity." This is a straw man and invites the sort of responses that I am getting - the predictable "You need to pray for others, focus on the good that is done, be more tolerant of human failings, not be so angry, try to reform things from within, etc., etc."

I am not talking about "What I think is wrong with Christianity." I am saying "I do not believe that the religion that calls itself Christianity has anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus was talking about, period. I don't think it's fulfilling the Great Commission, period." Jesus was talking about such a radical transformation in individual human lives and society as a whole that "Christianity" isn't even on the radar screen. To repeat myself, it's a complete perversion of what Jesus was talking about.

This is my perspective. Your mileage may vary. I would not expect those who are neck-deep in "Christianity" to agree with me. My perspective is not unlike that of Kierkegaard, who looked at the official state "Christianity" of his native Denmark and asked "Is it even POSSIBLE for someone to become a Christian in a 'Christian' land such as this?"

To quote Forrest Gump, which my wife and I happen to have watched only yesterday, "That's all I have to say about that."

Dave G. said:
You might get used to it eventually lol !!! It's fine but just to let you know, if you started to quote someone, changed your mind backed out and quote someone else you will get both quotes, just highlight what you don't want and hit backspace. And you need to type in the space below the quote. Sometimes what I do is just make a new reply in the window at the bottom of the page, then copy paste one line from someones message if wanted and put quote brackets on the line.

??? Sorry I’m actually on a mobile device so it’s kinda wonky. I have no idea what you just said

Anthony2019 · Nov 5, 2019

I share some of your frustrations about the way the church is today, but it is nothing new. The church has been renowned throughout history for being insular, suspicious of difference, and often wilfully ignorant of some of the issues affecting society at large.

However, if it wasn't for the church, my life would not be where it is today. Some of the most amazing people that have supported me through my life have been Christians. Very often, the ones who have been the most generous towards me with their time and resources have been those I have met in the church.

And if it wasn't for others in the church sharing their faith with me, I probably would never have come to faith.

lsume · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.

Thank God The Father that you don’t have to judge. That is completely out of your hands and In The Hands of God The Father.

the last child · Nov 5, 2019

A Realist said:
I wasn't suggesting he leave Christianity...just the organized church.

Doesn’t Scripture say not to abandon the fellowship of Believers?

AvisG · Nov 5, 2019

the last child said:
interesting...so you want to redefine the institution that claims to be Christianity, the same one that you are so angry but not angry with and wish to leave. I’m curious to know on what objective grounds do you believe that your interpretation of Christianity is better than the established institution? And who, other than yourself, has given you the accredidation to objectively know and judge said institution in contrast to your own draft? I’m asking not to be facetious, but because honestly, you are judging as if you are on a higher plane of knowledge, and I’m curious as to where or how you feel or know you obtained this knowledge.

No one has to give me "accreditation." I don't insist that I am on a higher plane of knowledge. I am on my plane of knowledge and awareness. I can't pretend to hold any beliefs that are inconsistent with my own experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition. To do otherwise would plunge me into a constant state of cognitive dissonance, which is where I'd be if I remained within "Christianity." My experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition - and specifically my study of the Jesus of the Gospels, the only Jesus we have - tell me that "Christianity" is pretty much an unsalvageable 180-degree perversion of what Jesus was talking about and that the only sane response for me is to abandon that ship and work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. To me this quite obvious - screamingly obvious - but if your experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition tell you something else … or you choose to rely instead on the pronouncements of supposed authority figures whom you deem to have sufficient "accreditation" … or even if you choose to live in a state of cognitive dissonance for reasons that are sufficient to you, this is irrelevant to me. I am not "judging" you. I am sharing what my experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition tell me.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
Well, I simply disagree. I've seen enough over my 48-year association with "Christianity" to reach the conclusion that I have reached. It's not a matter of whether there are pockets of Christ-likeness and do-goodness within "Christianity." There are pockets of Christ-likeness and do-goodness within Buddhism, Islam, atheism, Scientology, Walmart and everywhere else that humans are found. In my experience and observation, there is no more or less of this within "Christianity" than anywhere else, which is not what we would expect to find in a community uniquely indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in the process of sanctification. Nor is there any less worship of money, fame and sex, which is likewise not what we would expect to find. I've known a comparative handful of people in my life who truly seemed to have a Christ-like spirit and to lead Christ-like lives (I'm not one of them, by a long shot); maybe half of them claimed any association with Christianity, the rest did not.

There is a consistent misunderstanding here that I am squawking about "What I think is wrong with Christianity." This is a straw man and invites the sort of responses that I am getting - the predictable "You need to pray for others, focus on the good that is done, be more tolerant of human failings, not be so angry, try to reform things from within, etc., etc."

I am not talking about "What I think is wrong with Christianity." I am saying "I do not believe that the religion that calls itself Christianity has anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus was talking about, period. I don't think it's fulfilling the Great Commission, period." Jesus was talking about such a radical transformation in individual human lives and society as a whole that "Christianity" isn't even on the radar screen. To repeat myself, it's a complete perversion of what Jesus was talking about.

This is my perspective. Your mileage may vary. I would not expect those who are neck-deep in "Christianity" to agree with me. My perspective is not unlike that of Kierkegaard, who looked at the official state "Christianity" of his native Denmark and asked "Is it even POSSIBLE for someone to become a Christian in a 'Christian' land such as this?"

To quote Forrest Gump, which my wife and I happen to have watched only yesterday, "That's all I have to say about that."

So.................you're just jaded about 'professionalism' in the Church? Or what, precisely? I have to ask because if all you can offer on the philosophical front is a vague notion that there is "some THANG" corporately wrong within an otherwise quasi-monolithic religion like "Christanity," then any more of your reformatory criticism which you'd like to offer here--for whatever momentary stay you wish to give us with your presence--even if offered in what seems to be a Kiekegaardian vein, will probably be lost on the rest of us. And if you're going to go bonkers with Mr. K and try to out-Kierkegaard me, then I'll just retreat to my own modified refuge of Pascalian redoubt and hunker down.

Personally, I do think there is a Devil in the details and that it is causing some of the mass problems which we all have spiritually today, even within the Church, so I think you're incorrect to attempt to alleviate the Devil of his fault in much of this. He was a murder at the beginning, and he's still trying to "kill" us with his Screwtapian duplicity.

A Realist · Nov 5, 2019

the last child said:
Doesn’t Scripture say not to abandon the fellowship of Believers?

One can fellowship with believers without being a part of the organized church.

Hammster · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
I am sharing what my experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition tell me.

But again, no scripture.

AvisG · Nov 5, 2019

lsume said:
Thank God The Father that you don’t have to judge. That is completely out of your hands and In The Hands of God The Father.

Absolutely! Despite what you may glean from my OP, I do not judge those within "Christianity" (or within Buddhism or Islam, for that matter). I simply say, "I do not believe that this is what Jesus was talking about, I reject it in its entirety, and I choose to go my own way with my own understanding (which is always subject to revision on the basis of my experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition)." I cannot follow a path different from what my experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition tell me to follow. As I tried to make clear in my OP, I am not talking about individuals, churches or denominations within "Christianity" - that would indeed be "judging." I am talking about the phenomenon as a whole, which I simply do not believe has anything to do with what Jesus was talking about. If you do, or if you think "Christianity" is a worthwhile place to be with all of its faults and flaws, I would not discourage you from remaining (or even think I should have any influence on such a personal decision).

HatGuy · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.

As the old saying goes, "If you ain't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

charsan · Nov 5, 2019

Hammster said:
But again, no scripture.

There is no proof. Many times in an argument the person is unable to or unwilling to provide proof, this I have learned from my logic class.

AvisG · Nov 5, 2019

Hammster said:
But again, no scripture.

You didn't cite any Scripture for your admonition to me for supposedly not citing any Scripture. Is that a problem?

The "No Scripture Game," like the "Proof Texting Game," is one I simply decline to play. If it fascinates you - please, keep playing it!

dcalling · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
I was recently motivated to return here for a few postings by my increasing disgust and dismay with that which calls itself "Christianity," at least in the U.S. This disgust and dismay has reached the point where, after 48 years of self-identifying as a Christian of some species (originally a door-pounding Campus Crusader!), I hesitate even to identify myself as a Christian.

The disgust and dismay that I'm talking about has nothing whatsoever to do with any particular branch of Christendom - Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, United Methodists, Whatever. It has to do with all of "Christianity," the vast industry that purports to operate in Jesus' name.

It's precisely that - a vast, money-grubbing industry that is virtually indistinguishable from any other vast, money-grubbing industry. (There is of course one major difference: McDonald's, Wendy's and Burger King at least don't pretend to be doing God's work.)

The vast accumulations of wealth, the vast real estate holdings, the endless stream of products to sell (oops, to "give" you in return for your "generous donation" of at least $25), the celebrity leaders, the oh-so-obvious greed and ambition, the intense competition, yada yada yada - it's indistinguishable from any secular industry, with the minor exception that it purports to operate in the name of God and fleeces its "customers" in the name of God.

I happened to turn on the Christian Satellite Network yesterday just in time to hear the ubiquitous and smarmy Pastor Robert Jeffress for three minutes. In that short time, he managed to do a commercial for his latest "study tool" that you can't live without, a commercial for his latest book that I doubt he's even read but you likewise can't live without, and an extended commercial for his upcoming Alaska cruise (replete with a variety of entertainment, including a comedian!). For some reason, it hit me as the LAST STRAW. I've listened to Christian radio with increasing disgust and dismay for years, but I turned it off and said "THAT'S IT - I'm DONE with this sort of 'Christianity!'")

The problem is, "this sort of Christianity" pretty much IS "Christianity" in the U.S. And I haven't even mentioned the evangelicals for whom "Christianity" is little more than a code word for the right-wing political agenda (much of which I happen to favor, but I don't pretend that Jesus was a capitalist or that God cares one whit about the right to bear arms).

Does anyone actually think "Christianity" as it exists in the U.S. (and elsewhere, of course) has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was actually talking about??? Sure, even the most craven segments of "Christianity" do some (or even much) good work, but so do entirely secular corporations (and for pretty much exactly the same reason - it's essential public relations and ultimately enhances the bottom line).

As far as I can tell, the problem with "Christianity" is the same as the problem with everything else: human nature. The ambition, greed and lust that dominate every other sector of society dominate "Christianity" as well, with the exception that in "Christianity" they wear a deceiving cloak of godliness. The reality is, MONEY IS GOD, within "Christianity" as everywhere else, with FAME and SEX as the other parts of the unholy trinity. Isn't this a bit of a mystery? Where is the Holy Spirit in all this?

Indeed, the way that human nature operates within "Christianity" is particularly insidious. Those who are most consumed by greed and ambition can deceive themselves and their flocks into believing that they are doing God's work and that the excesses are God's blessing.

Read the Sermon On the Mount. Pay attention to the red-letter portions of your NT. Can you seriously say that "Christianity" as it exists today has ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING that Jesus was talking about??? It's a complete perversion of EVERYTHING that Jesus was talking about. What Jesus was talking about was something so radical that it's never even been attempted on a large scale and, at this point, never will be this side of the Second Coming.

Yes, I am ranting. Yes, I sound extremely cynical. But I at least have HAD IT with the entire phenomenon, the entire mega-industry, that calls itself "Christianity."

Oh, sure, your denomination is different. Oh, sure, your church is different. Oh, sure, you are different. Enjoy the potlucks.

Yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at.

Well, you need to remember that:
1. we are all sinners.
2. don't let other's sin destroy your salvation.

Even when Elisha thought all God's prophet are died, God told him HE has kept 7000 for himself (yes out of millions there are only 7000). The world is corrupt, but God's church is still on earth. When what claimed to be the church is corrupt, the tax collectors, scientists and rappers will take the call.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
You didn't cite any Scripture for your admonition to me for supposedly not citing any Scripture. Is that a problem?

The "No Scripture Game," like the "Proof Texting Game," is one I simply decline to play. If it fascinates you - please, keep playing it!

Now, you're just using troll tactics. Surely, as a PhD, you can do better and offer us all something a bit more specific and substantive than veiled allusions that, rather than going over our heads, are dissipated by the mere fanning and exhale of our breathing ...

the last child · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
Well, I simply disagree. I've seen enough over my 48-year association with "Christianity" to reach the conclusion that I have reached. It's not a matter of whether there are pockets of Christ-likeness and do-goodness within "Christianity." There are pockets of Christ-likeness and do-goodness within Buddhism, Islam, atheism, Scientology, Walmart and everywhere else that humans are found. In my experience and observation, there is no more or less of this within "Christianity" than anywhere else, which is not what we would expect to find in a community uniquely indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in the process of sanctification. Nor is there any less worship of money, fame and sex, which is likewise not what we would expect to find. I've known a comparative handful of people in my life who truly seemed to have a Christ-like spirit and to lead Christ-like lives (I'm not one of them, by a long shot); maybe half of them claimed any association with Christianity, the rest did not.

There is a consistent misunderstanding here that I am squawking about "What I think is wrong with Christianity." This is a straw man and invites the sort of responses that I am getting - the predictable "You need to pray for others, focus on the good that is done, be more tolerant of human failings, not be so angry, try to reform things from within, etc., etc."

I am not talking about "What I think is wrong with Christianity." I am saying "I do not believe that the religion that calls itself Christianity has anything whatsoever to do with what Jesus was talking about, period. I don't think it's fulfilling the Great Commission, period." Jesus was talking about such a radical transformation in individual human lives and society as a whole that "Christianity" isn't even on the radar screen. To repeat myself, it's a complete perversion of what Jesus was talking about.

This is my perspective. Your mileage may vary. I would not expect those who are neck-deep in "Christianity" to agree with me. My perspective is not unlike that of Kierkegaard, who looked at the official state "Christianity" of his native Denmark and asked "Is it even POSSIBLE for someone to become a Christian in a 'Christian' land such as this?"

To quote Forrest Gump, which my wife and I happen to have watched only yesterday, "That's all I have to say about that."

It’s kinda scary that your words ring back to men in the past who also walked away from the institution and wanted to tear it down and start over. A radical reboot... J Smith said all of the institutions were corrupted and needed a radical reboot, D Koresh believed all churches were corrupt, Mohammed believed that Christians had corrupted the Bible and thereby corrupted the true religion to follow God, and countless others have echoed your very sentiments down through the centuries... does that scare you? Or will you deny the resemblance?

A_Thinker · Nov 5, 2019

Lost4words said:
Those churches are not of 'today'.

But today's churches are just like them ...

AvisG · Nov 5, 2019

HatGuy said:
As the old saying goes, "If you ain't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

You, of course, would have remained on the Titanic - and I solute you, sir, for your fortitude. As I believe I have made clear, I don't believe there is a solution for "Christianity." As Bryant Gumbel famously said about NBC, "The only difference between 'Christianity' and the Titanic is that the Titanic had deck chairs."

charsan said:
There is no proof. Many times in an argument the person is unable to or unwilling to provide proof, this I have learned from my logic class.

And what is the "proof" you would like, Logic Class Graduate? The "proof" of my OP would be a close comparison between (1) the words of Jesus in whatever red-letter edition of the Bible you care to choose (hey, that would be Scripture!) and (2) that which calls itself Christianity in the U.S. It doesn't take a Logic Class Graduate to draw a conclusion from that comparison. If you believe there is any resemblance between (1) and (2), then you and I have drawn very different conclusions.

A_Thinker · Nov 5, 2019

AvisG said:
I do not believe that "Christianity" is Christianity AT ALL. I'm obviously in no position to judge who is or who isn't a Christian - and I certainly don't hold myself out as a shining example - but my conclusion on the basis of long experience is that "Christianity" has no more to do with what Jesus was talking about than does Microsoft or Nike or any other massive corporation with a fairly active social conscience.

You do realize that yours is just ONE VIEW, as opposed to 2 billion other Christians, and especially, God.

You're that confident that you're right ... and that everyone else is wrong ?

AvisG said:
I have attended numerous local churches in numerous locations over my 48-year association with "Christianity."

But you haven't visited 300,000 churches ... nor any reasonable sample of them ...

Christian to Christian, your post smacks of pride and judgementalism ... and that was not what Jesus was about ...

Just for grins, what exactly are you expecting in the church ... that you aren't seeing ?

AvisG · Nov 5, 2019

the last child said:
It’s kinda scary that your words ring back to men in the past who also walked away from the institution and wanted to tear it down and start over. A radical reboot... J Smith said all of the institutions were corrupted and needed a radical reboot, D Koresh believed all churches were corrupt, Mohammed believed that Christians had corrupted the Bible and thereby corrupted the true religion to follow God, and countless others have echoed your very sentiments down through the centuries... does that scare you? Or will you deny the resemblance?

Those you have cited postured themselves as leaders and attempted to start movements on the basis of their peculiar understandings. I have no interest in being anyone's leader or starting any movement. I am simply going my own way. I am under no illusion that the Titanic of "Christianity" is going to change its path. On the judgment day, I will simply say "Well, I did my best to distance myself from that which seemed to me to be a complete perversion of what You were actually talking about and to follow the path that I believed You were actually talking about."

So NO, my decision does not "scare" me, and I do indeed "deny the resemblance."

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14, NIV.

Does that scare YOU? Or is "Christianity" the narrow road and small gate in your opinion?

I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore

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