When Jesus took our sins on the cross, did he become a sinner?

redleghunter · Nov 4, 2019

David Neos said:
Still doesn't say God's wrath was over Him.

You are wording the statement a bit awkwardly. Perhaps this will clear things up a bit:

Isaiah 53: NASB

1Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.

3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.

5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

charsan · Nov 4, 2019

PrettyboyAndy said:
Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

That is just one theory on the Atonement which I really don't ascribe to. The Recapitulation theory of atonement is what I tend to believe that is not wrath but Christ fixed where Adam went wrong

The Recapitulation Theory of Atonement

"sees the atonement of Christ as reversing the course of mankind from disobedience to obedience. It believes that Christ’s life recapitulated all the stages of human life and in doing so reversed the course of disobedience initiated by Adam."

https://www.theopedia.com/recapitulation-theory-of-atonement

Here is a 3 minute video about

Not David · Nov 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
"Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:10-12).

I have a different translation: The Lord wishes to cleanse Him of His wound, and if You give an offering for sin, Your soul shall see a long-lived seed. The Lord wishes to take away the pain of His soul, to show Him light, to form Him with understanding, and to pronounce righteous the Righteous One who serves many well; and He shall inherit many, and will divide the spoil with the strong, because His soul was delivered over to death. He was considered among the lawless, and He bore the sins of many, and was delivered over because of their sins"

Not David · Nov 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
It is if the satisfaction reconciles the hostility of God toward sinners, whom are called "enemies," by imputing it to Christ on the cross. The death of the Son is the appeasement for that hostility, who bore that hostility in himself, bringing peace.

I see wrath as God's love in the face of an unrepentant sinner so Christ's death and resurrection allow humanity to get into communion with God.

timothyu · Nov 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
How about a friend who jumps in front of the bullet for you? "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13).

Same concept.. putting others before self.

Jonaitis · Nov 4, 2019

David Neos said:
I have a different translation: The Lord wishes to cleanse Him of His wound, and if You give an offering for sin, Your soul shall see a long-lived seed. The Lord wishes to take away the pain of His soul, to show Him light, to form Him with understanding, and to pronounce righteous the Righteous One who serves many well; and He shall inherit many, and will divide the spoil with the strong, because His soul was delivered over to death. He was considered among the lawless, and He bore the sins of many, and was delivered over because of their sins"

It sounds like a translation from the LXX.

However, I find the wording kinda awkward, given that parts of this passage is quoted in the New Testament. "He was considered among the lawless" differs than the Hebrew and New Testament reference that says he was "numbered with the transgressors." It still says that he bore the sins of many.

timothyu · Nov 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
In verse 10, it says that as enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son.

Hence the Gospel of the Kingdom which otherwise would not have come into being.

chevyontheriver · Nov 4, 2019

PrettyboyAndy said:
Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

I think only some Reformed people would say so.

Jonaitis · Nov 4, 2019

David Neos said:
I see wrath as God's love in the face of an unrepentant sinner so Christ's death and resurrection allow humanity to get into communion with God.

I don't see how it is "love" to actively punish, for an eternity, away from the glory of his presence, to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth in an analogous picture of "outer darkness," in body and soul. It seems contrary.

It sounds as if "love" is a quality of God, but I imagined that Orthodoxy held to divine simplicity, that God is not made up of parts, that his being and attributes are one and the same. If that is the position you hold to, then God is pure act and cannot "love" while actively showing the opposite toward the sinner.

Not David · Nov 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I don't see how it is "love" to actively punish, for an eternity, away from the glory of his presence, to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth in an analogous picture of "outer darkness," in body and soul. It seems contrary.

It sounds as if "love" is a quality of God, but I imagined that Orthodoxy held to divine simplicity, that God is not made up of parts, that his being and attributes are one and the same. If that is the position you hold to, then God is pure act and cannot "love" while actively showing the opposite toward the sinner.

Well, they differenciate between the essence and the energy of God. Also God's love is what brings the unrepentant sinner hell.

Jonaitis · Nov 4, 2019

David Neos said:
Well, they differenciate between the essence and the energy of God. Also God's love is what brings the unrepentant sinner hell.

I don't fully understand the essence and energy of God in Orthodoxy, it almost sounds similar to the incommunicable and communicable attributes of God, but it is more broad and extends beyond what man shares as the image-bearer. Please explain to help my lack of understanding.

Vicky gould · Nov 4, 2019

PrettyboyAndy said:
Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

Hi, yes when the Lord went to the cross was made sin by the Father 2 co. 5: 21, hope that’s right, this is why the Lord had to come as a man. The sin could not go on the on God. The only one who could become sin was the only one who could and did pay the price we could not. L

HTacianas · Nov 4, 2019

PrettyboyAndy said:
Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

Jesus did not become a sinner, he became sin. Much the same as the goat of the sin offering of Leviticus 16. The goat itself is not a sinner, but is offered for sin.

Not David · Nov 4, 2019

Jonaitis said:
I don't fully understand the essence and energy of God in Orthodoxy, it almost sounds similar to the incommunicable and communicable attributes of God, but it is more broad and extends beyond what man shares as the image-bearer. Please explain to help my lack of understanding.

Let me find something.

expos4ever · Nov 4, 2019

PrettyboyAndy said:
Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

If you read Romans 8 (the first few verses) carefully, note that God condemns sin, not Jesus. An important distinction.

d taylor · Nov 4, 2019

PrettyboyAndy said:
Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

Jesus was the sacrificial lamb with out sin. Just as the sacrificial animals in the Old Testament that did not sin but were used as a temporary sacrifice for sin but had to be repeated again and again, the animals notice were without blemish also.

Guojing · Nov 4, 2019

PrettyboyAndy said:
Jesus is perfect and Holy, without sin, but the wrath of God was taken out on Jesus when He died and paid for our sins, so when our sins went to Jesus, was Jesus a sinner at that time? How can one explain this

romans 5:12-19

we were born with Adam sinful nature that is the only reason why God rejected us.

but God sent Jesus to take our sinful nature. On the cross that was what happened.

God Forsook Jesus on the cross and unleash the punishment for Adam sinful nature on him

twin.spin · Nov 4, 2019

When Jesus took our sins on the cross, did he become a sinner?
A: Yes
2 Corinthians 5:21
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

PrettyboyAndy · Nov 4, 2019

HTacianas said:
Jesus did not become a sinner, he became sin. Much the same as the goat of the sin offering of Leviticus 16. The goat itself is not a sinner, but is offered for sin.

This is a very good answer and this helps me understand it, thank you

PrettyboyAndy · Nov 4, 2019

d taylor said:
Jesus was the sacrificial lamb with out sin. Just as the sacrificial animals in the Old Testament that did not sin but were used as a temporary sacrifice for sin but had to be repeated again and again, the animals notice were without blemish also.

Very good way to put it - thank you for this

When Jesus took our sins on the cross, did he become a sinner?

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