The 'Prosperity Gospel'

timothyu · Nov 2, 2019

The idea is not to have money control us. Easy come easy go.

A Gerbil · Nov 2, 2019

JackRT said:
I was unaware that I was in a dispute. Who or what is a Guojing?

It's not an acrimonious one, so don't worry. See post number 64.

AlexDTX · Nov 2, 2019

timothyu said:
But the poor are often more virtuous in nature.

That is not true. Virtue is not economically determined. There are poor people filled with envy and hatred for those who well off. There are well off people that despise those that are lower class than them, and are just as envious as the poor of those who are better off than them.

It is an erroneous assumption that poverty makes one more spiritual. It does not. Spirituality is caring about the things that God cares about and being sensitive to Him. This can be one's attitude whether rich or poor.

AlexDTX · Nov 2, 2019

A Gerbil said:
The Scripture you have quoted contradicts the 'prosperity gospel'. The idea that one should be content with what one has is not unique to Christianity, in fact the elimination of desire is part of the Buddhist philosophy, and some of the advice given in Rudyard Kipling's poem If. In other words it's not particularly divine.

The essence of Christianity is about the atonement of our sins through Jesus' sacrifice. Following that, it's about helping fellow man and not the pursuit of wealth. The rich man who was indifferent to Lazarus' torment on earth suffered in hell, Luke 16:25. Also see Matthew 25:31-46. That's pretty unambiguous to me.

Did you bother to read what I wrote? Or did you simply see the first line and jumped to a conclusion about and prejudged me? I neither defended nor addressed the prosperity gospel. I pointed out that we are to be content in whatsoever state we are in, and that godliness with contentment is great gain.

joshua 1 9 · Nov 2, 2019

A Gerbil said:
I choose neither poverty or prosperity.

This is determined by the Gov. I am married to a foreign wife so I had to prove to the government that we would live above the poverty level to secure her visa.

A Gerbil said:
I choose neither poverty or prosperity.

A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and need like a bandit. (Proverbs 6:10,11)

Guojing · Nov 2, 2019

A Gerbil said:
I choose neither poverty or prosperity. I am a graduate and earn a reasonable salary, in a secure job with a pension. I don't have any further aspirations, financially.

To have a secure job with a pension during this era of globalization is a financial blessing from God.

Prosperity is a blessing and poverty is a curse under the Law of Moses (Deut 28). If we are indeed in a better covenant under the Gospel of Grace, they are unlikely to be reversed.

Strong in Him · Nov 3, 2019

Guojing said:
As I said, if you know of any materially poor guy out there who needs a treasurer, let me know.

"Keeper of the purse", is not the same as the kind of treasurers we have today, doing spreadsheets, income and expenditure. My Greek interlinear NT says "the moneybox, having things put in, he [Judas] was removing."
Judas looked after the moneybox/purse. No doubt they had money; people gave them gifts. That money could have been used for any purpose - it certainly wasn't used to upgrade their lifestyles, provide homes, better forms of transport etc etc.

Guojing said:
2 Corinthians 8:9 seals the deal for me. And the context in the entire chapter was about money, material things.

Scripture doesn't say that Jesus came to make us materially rich.
We have every spiritual blessing in Christ, Ephesians 1:3. We deserved death, Romans 6:23; we have eternal life, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12; we are God's children, John 1:12, Romans 8:16-17; we can never be separated from his love, Romans 8:38-39; we can receive the Holy Spirit and have God himself in us, Romans 8:9-10, 1 Corinthians 6:19, Ephesians 5:18. The Spirit gives gifts, 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12:6-8, prays for us, Romans 8:27, and guarantees that we will receive a heavenly inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22.

A Gerbil · Nov 3, 2019

AlexDTX said:
That is not true. Virtue is not economically determined. There are poor people filled with envy and hatred for those who well off. There are well off people that despise those that are lower class than them, and are just as envious as the poor of those who are better off than them.

It is an erroneous assumption that poverty makes one more spiritual. It does not. Spirituality is caring about the things that God cares about and being sensitive to Him. This can be one's attitude whether rich or poor.

Do monks not eschew materialism and live an austere lifestyle in order to become closer to God, without the distractions of life? 1 Peter 2:11 'Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.'

AlexDTX said:
Did you bother to read what I wrote?
Or did you simply see the first line and jumped to a conclusion about and prejudged me?

I'm sorry, I have read so many replies it's sometimes difficult to discern whether one is defending the 'Prosperity Gospel' or not. That is the primary concern of the thread, therefore I initially addressed the scripture you quoted in relation to that.

I neither defended nor addressed the prosperity gospel. I pointed out that we are to be content in whatsoever state we are in, and that godliness with contentment is great gain.

Aye, I did address that too. In summary then, you are opposed to the 'Prosperity Gospel'! I agree with you.

Strong in Him · Nov 3, 2019

Guojing said:
Since this is a popular "proof text" interpretation of this verse: that Jesus is poor because he has no place to rest his head, let me now offer a different interpretation based on scripture.

It's not a prooftext of anything.
A man came to Jesus and said that he would follow Jesus wherever he went; that was Jesus' reply.

If you don't like that reply and you want to look around in Scripture to try to find words that are more palatable; that's up to you.

Guojing said:
Isaiah 62: 6-7
“I have set watchmen upon your walls, O Jerusalem, who will never hold their peace day or night; you who [are His servants and by your prayers] put the Lord in remembrance [of His promises], keep not silence, And give Him no rest until He establishes Jerusalem and makes her a praise in the earth.”

In this context the establishment of Jerusalem refers to a righteousness that is unwavering. See verse 1 “For Zion’s sake I will not hold My peace, And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, Until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, And her salvation as a lamp that burns.”

Jesus' words have nothing to do with Isaiah - he was not quoting the prophet, nor fulfilling prophecy.

Guojing said:
In this context the establishment of Jerusalem refers to a righteousness that is unwavering. See verse 1 “For Zion’s sake I will not hold My peace, And for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, Until her righteousness goes forth as brightness, And her salvation as a lamp that burns.”

He cannot rest until he establishes a righteousness that burns with brightness. FOR YOU.

We are made righteous through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Guojing said:
The Bible tells us Jesus finally found His rest after He said “it is finished”. See John 19:30 “When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.” The word “bow” is the Greek is the same word “rest”.

He finally rested on the cross. Isaiah 62 tells us that God is relentless is His pursuit of our righteousness. It basically means God is interested in working for your righteousness and He will not rest until He finds it for you.

That has nothing to do with Luke 9:58.
Jesus clearly said that the Son of Man had nowhere to lay his head.

Guojing said:
Our Lord Jesus finally did it. On the cross. He finally rested His head. He became you and you became Him. He became Sin. You became the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21.

Jesus is now seated. He no longer stands. The work is done. He is now at rest. I hope this will be a more convincing interpretation of what Jesus was really saying in Luke 9:58.

Quite the opposite - all I see is a few Scriptures cobbled together to try to explain Jesus' words in another way.

To the man who wanted to follow him anywhere, Jesus replied "foxes have holes, the birds of the air have their nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."
Why do you think he compared himself to foxes and birds who have safe places to live?
What do you think Jesus was saying to the two other men who said they would follow him .... BUT?
Why do you think these verses have been put under the heading, "the cost of following Jesus"?

A Gerbil · Nov 3, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
This is determined by the Gov. I am married to a foreign wife so I had to prove to the government that we would live above the poverty level to secure her visa.

Indeed. Taking care of one's day-to-day needs is not avarice.

A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and need like a bandit. (Proverbs 6:10,11)

Don't be lazy...?!

Guojing · Nov 3, 2019

Strong in Him said:
"Keeper of the purse", is not the same as the kind of treasurers we have today, doing spreadsheets, income and expenditure. My Greek interlinear NT says "the moneybox, having things put in, he [Judas] was removing."
Judas looked after the moneybox/purse. No doubt they had money; people gave them gifts. That money could have been used for any purpose - it certainly wasn't used to upgrade their lifestyles, provide homes, better forms of transport etc etc.

Scripture doesn't say that Jesus came to make us materially rich.
We have every spiritual blessing in Christ, Ephesians 1:3. We deserved death, Romans 6:23; we have eternal life, John 3:36, 1 John 5:12; we are God's children, John 1:12, Romans 8:16-17; we can never be separated from his love, Romans 8:38-39; we can receive the Holy Spirit and have God himself in us, Romans 8:9-10, 1 Corinthians 6:19, Ephesians 5:18. The Spirit gives gifts, 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12:6-8, prays for us, Romans 8:27, and guarantees that we will receive a heavenly inheritance, 2 Corinthians 1:22.

I already stated that 2 cor 8 and 9, the context is about money.

You disagree with that?

Guojing · Nov 3, 2019

Strong in Him said:
It's not a prooftext of anything.
A man came to Jesus and said that he would follow Jesus wherever he went; that was Jesus' reply.

If you don't like that reply and you want to look around in Scripture to try to find words that are more palatable; that's up to you.

Jesus' words have nothing to do with Isaiah - he was not quoting the prophet, nor fulfilling prophecy.

We are made righteous through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

That has nothing to do with Luke 9:58.
Jesus clearly said that the Son of Man had nowhere to lay his head.

Quite the opposite - all I see is a few Scriptures cobbled together to try to explain Jesus' words in another way.

To the man who wanted to follow him anywhere, Jesus replied "foxes have holes, the birds of the air have their nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head."
Why do you think he compared himself to foxes and birds who have safe places to live?
What do you think Jesus was saying to the two other men who said they would follow him .... BUT?
Why do you think these verses have been put under the heading, "the cost of following Jesus"?

I know many churches used that verse to form a doctrine that Jesus was poor financially.

Guess it will take time for one to see differently

Strong in Him · Nov 3, 2019

Guojing said:
I already stated that 2 cor 8 and 9, the context is about money.

You disagree with that?

I don't disagree that Paul is talking to the Corinthian church about money.
I do disagree that we can assume that the words "that we might be rich" refers to money and material possessions. That is an interpretation. Someone has read that verse and thought "rich=having money; Paul must be saying that Jesus came so that we could have money and be materially blessed."

Jesus taught that we cannot serve God and money - we would love one and hate the other.
Jesus told a parable about a man who hoarded material possessions and was called a fool by God, Luke 12:16-21.
Jesus told a rich young ruler to give his money away and follow him, Luke 18:18-30 and said that it was hard for rich people to enter the Kingdom of God, Luke 18:24-25, Mark 10:24-25, Matthew 19:23-24.
Jesus said that a widow who had put a small coin into the temple treasury had given more than the Pharisees with their wealth, who only gave out of their surplus, Luke 21:1-4.

Nowhere did he teach that the reason he came to earth was that we might have money.

Strong in Him · Nov 3, 2019

Guojing said:
I know many churches used that verse to form a doctrine that Jesus was poor financially.

Doesn't matter what other churches do; I asked you what you thought Jesus meant by his words, and why he compared himself to creatures that have safe places to live?

Guojing · Nov 3, 2019

Strong in Him said:
I don't disagree that Paul is talking to the Corinthian church about money.
I do disagree that we can assume that the words "that we might be rich" refers to money and material possessions. That is an interpretation. Someone has read that verse and thought "rich=having money; Paul must be saying that Jesus came so that we could have money and be materially blessed."

Jesus taught that we cannot serve God and money - we would love one and hate the other.
Jesus told a parable about a man who hoarded material possessions and was called a fool by God, Luke 12:16-21.
Jesus told a rich young ruler to give his money away and follow him, Luke 18:18-30 and said that it was hard for rich people to enter the Kingdom of God, Luke 18:24-25, Mark 10:24-25, Matthew 19:23-24.
Jesus said that a widow who had put a small coin into the temple treasury had given more than the Pharisees with their wealth, who only gave out of their surplus, Luke 21:1-4.

Nowhere did he teach that the reason he came to earth was that we might have money.

Jesus came so that we can have life, and have it abundantly (John 10:10). You are of course free to restrict that abundance to a level that you are comfortable with, in believing.

Paul is urging us in 2 Cor 8 and 9 to trust in Jesus for our material needs and the way to show that trust is simple, give it away to those who are in need. This is in line with the other verses he preach about working with your hands (Ephesians 4:28).

AlexDTX · Nov 3, 2019

A Gerbil said:
Do monks not eschew materialism and live an austere lifestyle in order to become closer to God, without the distractions of life? 1 Peter 2:11 'Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.'

There is no proof that monks who live austere lifestyles are more spiritual because of their seclusion. This has been believed by many generations and has the same results as priests taking a vow of chastity: they fail. Instead, many have become pedophiles or fornicators with nuns; or they become gluttons. Sure, there are those who were spiritual, but it was not because of their vow of poverty. It was because they already had a heart for spiritual virtue.

A Gerbil said:
I'm sorry, I have read so many replies it's sometimes difficult to discern whether one is defending the 'Prosperity Gospel' or not. That is the primary concern of the thread, therefore I initially addressed the scripture you quoted in relation to that.

That is understandable. To the point I both defend and reject it. I reject it as a pursuit of life, but I defend it because God blesses abundantly and when we are recipients of his blessings we are to be grateful and enjoy those blessings.

A Gerbil said:
Aye, I did address that too. In summary then, you are opposed to the 'Prosperity Gospel'! I agree with you.

As I said, I reject the Prosperity Gospel as a pursuit.

Strong in Him · Nov 3, 2019

Guojing said:
Jesus came so that we can have life, and have it abundantly (John 10:10). You are of course free to restrict that abundance to a level that you are comfortable with, in believing.

Yes, he did.
But it is an assumption that abundant life means lots of money and material possessions. That's called reading into the text - making it say what you want it to say.

I have abundant life and, as I said before, compared with some, I am very rich.
If you want to read other things into Jesus' words to justify a belief that Christians should be materially wealthy, that's up to you. I don't have to answer to God for your actions.

Guojing said:
Paul is urging us in 2 Cor 8 and 9 to trust in Jesus for our material needs and the way to show that trust is simple, give it away to those who are in need. This is in line with the other verses he preach about working with your hands (Ephesians 4:28).

He still doesn't say that Jesus'purpose in coming to earth was to make his followers materially rich.
Like I said, Jesus' purpose was to offer his life as a sacrifice for us and reconcile us to God, John 10:11, Matthew 26:28, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29; the Way to the Father, John 14:6 and the only one who can save us, Acts of the Apostles 4:12.

RaymondG · Nov 3, 2019

joshua 1 9 said:
We need to do more then name it & claim it, blab it and grab it.

Yes, we must also shake it and make.

Guojing · Nov 3, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Yes, he did.
But it is an assumption that abundant life means lots of money and material possessions. That's called reading into the text - making it say what you want it to say.

I have abundant life and, as I said before, compared with some, I am very rich.
If you want to read other things into Jesus' words to justify a belief that Christians should be materially wealthy, that's up to you. I don't have to answer to God for your actions.

He still doesn't say that Jesus'purpose in coming to earth was to make his followers materially rich.
Like I said, Jesus' purpose was to offer his life as a sacrifice for us and reconcile us to God, John 10:11, Matthew 26:28, Romans 5:11, 2 Corinthians 5:18. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, John 1:29; the Way to the Father, John 14:6 and the only one who can save us, Acts of the Apostles 4:12.

As I have already stated, you are free to reduce abundance to a level you are comfortable with.

Many Christians are comfortable too believing that God can heal them but it is up to his will. Those who are against divine healing as part of the abundant life are usually against financial prosperity as well.

Guojing · Nov 3, 2019

AlexDTX said:
There is no proof that monks who live austere lifestyles are more spiritual because of their seclusion. This has been believed by many generations and has the same results as priests taking a vow of chastity: they fail. Instead, many have become pedophiles or fornicators with nuns; or they become gluttons. Sure, there are those who were spiritual, but it was not because of their vow of poverty. It was because they already had a heart for spiritual virtue.

That is understandable. To the point I both defend and reject it. I reject it as a pursuit of life, but I defend it because God blesses abundantly and when we are recipients of his blessings we are to be grateful and enjoy those blessings.

As I said, I reject the Prosperity Gospel as a pursuit.

Amen Deuteronomy 8 is my favourite chapter in the ot

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