The Reprobate Doctrine

Daniel C said:

Satan accuses,Steven,some on your list is not reverent.

I have no problem with no opposing views that's why I started this thread.

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Not "reverent"?
Did you mean "relevant"?
All my points are relevant. None are irreverent.

1) You have failed confirm your definition.
Your topic question asks: "Do you believe God gives people over to a reprobate mind, as defined in Romans 1" But then you go on to talk about reprobates, defining them as "rejected" by God. (predestined to hell with no opportunity to repent)

2) The term you are defining is not even in the scripture you are misusing as a proof-text.
The text (Rom.1) uses the term reprobate (depraved) mind. Yet you claim this is enough to confirm your doctrine of reprobation.

3) You falsely accuse me of using a "heathen" definition. Whatever that means. Certainly meant as an insult, for which I forgive you.
My definition was based on a simple definition search and the rest of the bible. What makes that "heathen"?

4) You have limited sources to Romans chapter one for your argument because they will not stand to the whole message of the bible.
The argument will not stand on its own so you need to limit sources to make it work. Which means it doesn't work.

5) You wish to create an echo chamber where only agreeing voices can be heard. So you can glad-hand each other.
You have criticized my for being disagreeable. And speak to me as if there is something wrong with for disagreeing with you. As if opposing you is opposing God.

Daniel C said:

Satan accuses,Steven...

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Your accusation is as false as it is hypocritical.

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Daniel C said:

Pay attention Steven,this my definition of reprobate: rejected.

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I have always been clear on that. But it doesn't make sense in the context of Romans chapter one that uses the term reprobate mind.

What is a rejected mind?

Daniel C said:

It appears a reprobate is rejected from the Grace of God. When God cuts off his Grace from a person how can repenance save them? Too late!

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Based on Romans chapter one (or the rest of the Bible for that matter) that is 100 percent conjecture on your part. The passage says nothing of the sort. Merely a reciting meaningless dogma.

But your statement goes beyond that. Claiming that God would not accept the repentance of a reprobate. To what end? This is a monstrous view of God.

Daniel C said:

Do you actually think all mankind will be saved?

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Not just humankind, but all of creation. As I said earlier...

Every knee will bow. In heaven and on earth and under the earth.
And every tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord,
Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Daniel C said:

Optimistic but unrealistic.

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On what basis do you make that claim? And don't say "the Bible".
I have provided scripture for my view. Can you refute it?

What do you think it means that every knee will bow "under the earth"?
Do you understand the magnitude of that statement?

Philippians 2:9-11
Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Daniel C said:

It just doesn't make sense to you.

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I suppose this whole topic serves as an anti-OSAS statement. Just your way to make the point that salvation can be lost. Which isn't true. Even in the case of reprobation.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Saint Steven said:

I don't think that's how it works. No one is "cut-off from Gods grace". I think reprobation is a tool God uses to accelerate conversion/repentance, rather than prevent it.

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Interesting perspective. You give some good points from the Bible about this idea. I'd have to study it though.

Daniel C said:

Well your deliberate avoidance of this key point is the problem steven. What is a "reprobate" mind? You won't answer because it doesn't affirm your own personal belief.

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Daniel C said:

Translations is key here. In fact this doctrine can be changed by editing one word-reprobate.

God works through his word,so if you don't have his word you don't have God.

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I looked up the word "reprobate". Strong's Greek #96. The word is used 8 times in the NT. In KJV; most commonly translated "reprobate", but also "cast away" and "rejected". I looked up to see if that word had a root to it. That does't appear to be the case.

Romans 1:28
1 Corinthians 9:27
2 Corinthians 13:5,6&7
2 Timothy 3:8
Titus 1:6
Hebrews 6:8

All this being said; after looking at all these. I think a good working definition that would make sense in all the passages would be "to be faulty in practice". Not in the faith, as demonstrated by one's outward behavior. The context of this word is always referring to the behavior manifest.

So therefore I would not conclude that it would be accurate to say the word means "rejected". It more implies that if one is continuing to "be faulty in practice" this is evidence that they will be "rejected" or "cast off". Not that they are automatically cast off because they are faulty in practice; seeing how the Scripture does point out that there are those who were faulty in practice (homosexuals) who'd repented and became believers.

So if one "ultimately rejected" because of "being faulty in practice"; the faulty in practice isn't what causes the "ultimate rejection". It's remaining faulty in practice that ultimately demonstrates rejection. Yet, I also don't think it would be accurate to say that it is God rejecting them as much as them rejecting God.

Daniel C said:

Do you believe in the reprobate doctrine as defined in Romans chapter 1?

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The "reprobate doctrine" needs to be defined by the entirety of Scripture.

Saint Steven said:

How do you know that we will not ALL be saved?

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Jesus states "Broad is the path that leads to destruction and many there are that follow it; but narrow is the path to eternal life and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14

There are several Scriptures that speak of the unregenerate going to hell / being cast into the lake of fire.

Saint Steven said:

I showed you six scriptures that say otherwise.
Did you rip those verses out of your Bible?

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It behoves you too on this matter to pay attention to the entirety of Scripture.

Saint Steven said:

On what basis do you make that claim? And don't say "the Bible".
I have provided scripture for my view. Can you refute it?

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Deuteronomy 32:22
Psalm 9:17
Psalm 55:15
Proverbs 5:5
Proverbs 7:27
Proverbs 9:18
Proverbs 27:20
(to name a few)
Matthew 5:28&29
Matthew 11:23
Matthew 23:33
James 3:6
Revelation 20:13

The Righterzpen said:

Jesus states "Broad is the path that leads to destruction and many there are that follow it; but narrow is the path to eternal life and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:13-14

There are several Scriptures that speak of the unregenerate going to hell / being cast into the lake of fire.

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Thanks. That's a great response.
I'm usually fighting an uphill battle on these things. Due to the Damnationists being in charge of the bulk of our available translations. Here's something to consider.

The word "eternal" is not in the Greek text of verse fourteen. (please confirm) The word used is zoe (life), with no adjective in the Greek. So, where did it come from? Good question. Compare the Young's Literal Translation below.

Matthew 7:13-14 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
13 `Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide [is] the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it;
14 how strait [is] the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

The Righterzpen said:

All this being said; after looking at all these. I think a good working definition that would make sense in all the passages would be "to be faulty in practice". Not in the faith, as demonstrated by one's outward behavior. The context of this word is always referring to the behavior manifest.

So therefore I would not conclude that it would be accurate to say the word means "rejected". It more implies that if one is continuing to "be faulty in practice" this is evidence that they will be "rejected" or "cast off". Not that they are automatically cast off because they are faulty in practice; seeing how the Scripture does point out that there are those who were faulty in practice (homosexuals) who'd repented and became believers.

So if one "ultimately rejected" because of "being faulty in practice"; the faulty in practice isn't what causes the "ultimate rejection". It's remaining faulty in practice that ultimately demonstrates rejection. Yet, I also don't think it would be accurate to say that it is God rejecting them as much as them rejecting God.

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I appreciate the work you did to think this through.
However, we need to bear in mind the fact that "God gave them over to a depraved mind..." Rom.1:28 (posted below) Therefore, the state that they find themselves in, though initiated at first by their own behavior, was accelerated when God cut them loose to their own devices. (a depraved/reprobate mind)

I believe the state of reprobation is intended to bring them to repentance. God never gives up on us. It seems you agree on that point. (thanks) Hopefully I haven't misunderstood you.

Romans 1:28
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

The Righterzpen said:

It behoves you too on this matter to pay attention to the entirety of Scripture.

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Thanks. I'm well aware of the scriptures on both sides. However, I am seeing problems with the doctrine we all grew up with. And also the biased/corrupted Bibles we were given to work with.

The Righterzpen said:

Interesting perspective. You give some good points from the Bible about this idea. I'd have to study it though.

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Thanks. It seems that the conclusions being presented on this topic are conjectural at best. And there has been an effort to limit sources to bring to bear on it. Not sure why we haven't seen a broader discussion on this. I'm glad you have joined us. Thanks.

Daniel C said:

Well steven you say that but it doesn't say anywhere in scripture that reprobates get brought back to God,so that is your assertion.

I personal believe in eternal security of the believer but here's the thing steven-not everyone will take the free eternal gift of salvation, so they won't be saved.

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I disagree wholeheartedly.

We have the parable of the Prodigal Son, about a reprobate that was welcomed back with open arms. We also have the statement about the Good Shephard that leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one. Just two examples of the never-ending love of God.

Matthew 18:12-14
“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Luke 15:17-20
“When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.
“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

Daniel C said:

I personal believe in eternal security of the believer but here's the thing steven-not everyone will take the free eternal gift of salvation, so they won't be saved.

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How do you square that with reprobation?

Are you claiming that those that did not receive "the gift" were rejected by God?
Seems to be something off there.