The Reprobate Doctrine

[Daniel C]

Scripture is necessary to support your view otherwise it's merely your personal opinion.

The scripture is Romans 1
The question is does God give people over to a reprobate mind?

In your first post you correctly identified reprobate as rejected:

. . . The Greek word for "reprobate" is "adokimos" variously translated as reprobate, rejected, fail the test, castaway. . .

But you've gone onto claim a reprobate/reject can repent and be reconciled wirh God. According to Romans 1 that's not possible.

If you disagree that is fine but please note in the reprobate doctrine in Romans 1 it makes no mention of people being reconciled with God after they are rejected by God.

 

[Daniel C]

I've read the whole Bible multiple times. I've read Romans in at least three different interpretations, KJV and NIV among them.

Right and what Bible version do you use now?

 

[Daniel C]

did you even read my post? I can't participate in this conversation if you're not going to take it seriously.

Yes I did read your post.

Very well damian if those are my options I will choose to close the dialogue here.

Goodbye.

------------------------------------

End.

 

[Concord1968]

I get the feeling this is degenerating into KJV Onlyism.....

 

[Daniel C]

I get the feeling this is degenerating into KJV Onlyism.....

That is not the issue of the thread.

Do you believe in the reprobate doctrine as defined in Romans chapter 1?

At least try to stay on point please.

 

[DamianWarS]

That is not the issue of the thread.

Do you believe in the reprobate doctrine as defined in Romans chapter 1?

At least try to stay on point, please.

it's because it's in a KJV vacuum that's the issue. you need to narrow your request saying "...defined in Romans chapter 1 as per the KJV" since you are unwilling to go outside of the KJV to have this discussion. This is just being courteous to those participating so they know what they are getting into.

 

[renniks]

Right and what Bible version do you use now?

NIV and sometimes NT Wright's kingdom version. And occasionally The Message Bible.

 

[Oldmantook]

The scripture is Romans 1
The question is does God give people over to a reprobate mind?

In your first post you correctly identified reprobate as rejected:



But you've gone onto claim a reprobate/reject can repent and be reconciled wirh God. According to Romans 1 that's not possible.

If you disagree that is fine but please note in the reprobate doctrine in Romans 1 it makes no mention of people being reconciled with God after they are rejected by God.

We both agree that God gives people over to a reprobate mind. However your claim that once a person is reprobate, he/she cannot repent and be reconciled is an extremely weak position. Your argument is based on silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. Just because Romans 1 does not state that reprobate people can be reconciled does not mean that they cannot be. All Rom 1 states is that God gave them over to a reprobate mind. It does not address what happens should people choose to repent. That is why I asked you for supporting Scripture that people cannot repent once they are reprobate. You did not provide any. It is risky to form your doctrine based on a single passage of scripture, not to mention forming your argument based on one of silence.

 

[Daniel C]

We both agree that God gives people over to a reprobate mind. However your claim that once a person is reprobate, he/she cannot repent and be reconciled is an extremely weak position. Your argument is based on silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. Just because Romans 1 does not state that reprobate people can be reconciled does not mean that they cannot be. All Rom 1 states is that God gave them over to a reprobate mind. It does not address what happens should people choose to repent. That is why I asked you for supporting Scripture that people cannot repent once they are reprobate. You did not provide any. It is risky to form your doctrine based on a single passage of scripture, not to mention forming your argument based on one of silence.

I don't think it is an argument from silence though.

Any honest person would see being rejected by God is permanent. By our nature mankind is born not knowing God and can only connect with the creator by being born again. So at our starting point we are carnal and don't know God,so why reject if theres a natural separation in the first place?

I think Romans 1 is saying certain people cross a line and then get cut-off and rejected for acts unacceptable to God.

Why is Paul saying "haters of God" are given over to a "reprobate mind" not convincing enough for you?

 

[Daniel C]

NIV and sometimes NT Wright's kingdom version. And occasionally The Message Bible.

Only reason I ask is if our bible version are different the words will be different so the definition will be different. That could cause a problem.

 

[Daniel C]

it's because it's in a KJV vacuum that's the issue. you need to narrow your request saying "...defined in Romans chapter 1 as per the KJV" since you are unwilling to go outside of the KJV to have this discussion. This is just being courteous to those participating so they know what they are getting into.

Actually Damian the reason why I wanted to be sure what Bible version people used was communication. I wanted to be sure we understood the doctrine before discussing it further. As we are now starting to see when people have different versions and the books have different words in key places it might act as a point of confusion.

 

[Oldmantook]

I don't think it is an argument from silence though.

Any honest person would see being rejected by God is permanent. By our nature mankind is born not knowing God and can only connect with the creator by being born again. So at our starting point we are carnal and don't know God,so why reject if theres a natural separation in the first place?

I think Romans 1 is saying certain people cross a line and then get cut-off and rejected for acts unacceptable to God.

Why is Paul saying "haters of God" are given over to a "reprobate mind" not convincing enough for you?

I see nothing at all in Romans 1 that states it is permanent as you allege; thus the inherent weakness in your argument. You are adding to the text your opinion which the text itself does not state thereby eisegeting the text. Secondly, Rom 1 refers to believers - not unbelievers. Rom 1:20-21 states them as "having known God." Also, as I cited earlier Paul warned other believers to examine themselves, lest they become reprobate. Paul stated that he crucifies his flesh, lest he himself become reprobate.
And "haters of God" do not exclusively refer to unbelievers if that's what you're claiming. It applies to ANYONE who lives in disobedience. Jesus stated IF you love me, you will obey my commands. Those believers who choose to habitually disobey obviously by their actions demonstrate that they do not love God and are thus also "haters of God."

 

[Daniel C]

I see nothing at all in Romans 1 that states it is permanent as you allege; thus the inherent weakness in your argument. You are adding to the text your opinion which the text itself does not state thereby eisegeting the text. Secondly, Rom 1 refers to believers - not unbelievers. Rom 1:20-21 states them as "having known God." Also, as I cited earlier Paul warned other believers to examine themselves, lest they become reprobate. Paul stated that he crucifies his flesh, lest he himself become reprobate.
And "haters of God" do not exclusively refer to unbelievers if that's what you're claiming. It applies to ANYONE who lives in disobedience. Jesus stated IF you love me, you will obey my commands. Those believers who choose to habitujally disobey obviously by their actions demonstrate that they do not love God and are thus also "haters of God."

Yeah it says nothing apart from "reprobate" but you ask to confirm the already clear statement which is pretty asinine in my opinion.

It also doesn't say anything about repentance or keeping commandments in Romans 1,that's your add ons

The rejected were not believers, it does not say they were saved and to be honest I think you're trying to turn this into an opportunity to advertise repentance-works salvation,I don't want that false doctrine here and it's off topic.

You made your position clear, thanks for the feedback.

 

[Oldmantook]

Yeah it says nothing apart from "reprobate" but you ask to confirm the already clear statement which is pretty asinine in my opinion.

It also doesn't say anything about repentance or keeping commandments in Romans 1,that's your add on

The rejected were not believers, it does not say they were saved and to be honest I think you're trying to turn this into an opportunity to advertise repentance-works salvation,I don't want that false doctrine here and it's off topic.

You made your position clear, thanks for the feedback.

You are also entitled to your asinine opinion. Paul himself wrote that he could become reprobate if he did not crucify his flesh. You are totally free to ignore Paul's words in order to dearly cling on to your false belief.

 

[DamianWarS]

Actually Damian the reason why I wanted to be sure what Bible version people used was communication. I wanted to be sure we understood the doctrine before discussing it further. As we are now starting to see when people have different versions and the books have different words in key places it might act as a point of confusion.

You seek an understanding based on an isolated translation so the doctrine you seek is contingent upon this translation. if the discussion is worthy to be had its worthy to put all the words on the table and discuss their meaning. I responsibly discussed the meaning of the word here but rather than addressing the points you disqualified them since I was using the wrong version even claiming that the "Translations [sic] is key here. In fact this doctrine can be changed by editing one word-reprobate." if this doctrine is so fragile that it falls upon changing translation then is it really worth our attention?

I will meet your demands and use the KJV, which really will just be a rehash of a previous post but since you are blinded by the translation this is the only thing you will listen to.

the text says

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Now God does not call them reprobate he gives them over to a reprobate mind which is different. "reprobate" here is an adjective and doesn't work on its own as it modifies "mind". So God gave them over to a mind that was reprobate. The text first tells us "they did not like to retain God in their knowledge" their mind is already not of God and God simply releases them into this reprobate mind which is a mind under the sinful nature. This can be paired with vs 26 saying "God gave them up unto vile affections" and to 24 "God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts" Are these "vile affections" or the "lusts of their own hearts" accepted or are they too reprobate? of course, it's the latter but still, rejection is not the individual it is their sin they have been given into that is. Essentially v28 is saying if you want to ignore God by removing him from your knowledge (like an atheist) then he's not going to stop you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well your deliberate avoidance of this key point is the problem steven. What is a "reprobate" mind? You won't answer because it doesn't affirm your own personal belief.

I'm sure God has had mercy on us all Steven,doesn't say the grace of God is unlimited. In fact this is the nature of the reprobate doctrine.

Don't test your God.

Even your own definition of reprobate doesn't work. Unless you believe someone can have a "rejected" mind. Does that make any sense. The Apostle left a message for you in Romans chapter two. Did you read it?

 

[Daniel C]

Even your own definition of reprobate doesn't work. Unless you believe someone can have a "rejected" mind. Does that make any sense. The Apostle left a message for you in Romans chapter two. Did you read it?

Steven so far most people agree that reprobate means rejected, so it's not my definition it's just a fact.

I believe this was your OP

I think there are plenty of reprobates that eventually turn to Christ.
In fact, the is the purpose of turning them over, that they will turn in repentance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

If that's your position than I'll accept your opinion but I will highlight the fact that Paul doesn't say that the rejected have a chance to be redeemed after being reprobate.

I don't believe for one second these reprobates come back to God, that's why they were rejected in the first place-God doesn't want them. The Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.

 

[Saint Steven]

Steven so far most people agree that reprobate means rejected, so it's not my definition it's just a fact.

I believe this was your OP

Your definition depends on a claimed unwillingness of God to bring sinners to repentance.
That he would reject his own child that returns to him. The parable of the Prodigal proves this WRONG. The father RAN to his son and embraced him while he was still a far off, on the road back to him. Was that son not given to reprobation? What does that tell you?

As I said, your consensus definition doesn't work. Neither logically nor biblically.
A "reprobate" mind would then be a rejected mind. What does that mean?

And a quick search doesn't include "rejected" in the definition either.

reprobate

• n.
  A morally unprincipled person.
• n.
  One who is predestined to damnation.
• adj.
  Morally unprincipled; shameless.
  

 

[Saint Steven]

If that's your position than I'll accept your opinion but I will highlight the fact that Paul doesn't say that the rejected have a chance to be redeemed after being reprobate.

I don't believe for one second these reprobates come back to God, that's why they were rejected in the first place-God doesn't want them. The Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.

The text doesn't even say that.

The only thing that is reprobate (depraved) is their mind. Even your survey question asks that. A "reprobate mind".

Repentance is a change of mind. Away from depravity toward God. Yet you seem to claim that God would be unforgiving and unmerciful toward them. Is that your claim? Who is this god you have created? A god that withholds mercy and forgiveness? Is that the God we worship? (nope)

Romans 1:28 NIV
Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Romans 1:28 KJV
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Daniel C]

Your definition
reprobate

• n.
  A morally unprincipled person.
• n.
  One who is predestined to damnation.
• adj.
  Morally unprincipled; shameless.
  

Semantics steven. Trying to tap dance around the definition of the key words only distracts us all from the bigger picture. Paul writes a whole page for us to draw from. I say reprobate is rejected. If you can't accept this and appeal to heathen meanings that would be your choice. I am not prepared to argue with you over this secondary issue page after page.