The Dangerous Confusion & Delusion In Dispensationalism & Christian Zionism Doctrines
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I agree. My point, that I'm trying to make, is that this theology wasn't born overnight. It
I'm thinking the root has to do with humanity's tendency for Nationalism - which is what Jesus was warning those in His generation against (as it was the Nationalism of the zealots that led Jerusalem away from Christ - blinding them in their desire to take matters into THEIR hands with violence).
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Makes me feel blessed I never got entangled in that "spider web" doctrine.
Give me Preterism any day of the week.....
THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE
The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology
G-I-G-O What Christian Zionists Get Wrong About Israel
Steve Lumbley: G-I-G-O What Christian Zionists Get Wrong About Israel (2017)
Christian Zionist’s (hereinafter referred to as CZ’s) often accuse me of teaching replacement theology, a term which is intended to have the same effect as the word racist. It is an attempt to stop the discussion right then and there. No more discussion is needed if you are a replacement theologian. You are so obviously wrong and deluded we’re done with this conversation.
In reality, I don’t know anyone who teaches replacement theology as it is commonly defined by CZ’s. That definition always includes the idea that God is “finished” with the Jews, whatever that means. Perhaps some taught that in the past. Men like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the Catholic Church, were vicious in their denunciation of Jews and viewed them as mortal enemies of the church. Other than a few radical fringe groups like white supremacists I know of no one today who believes Jews should be denounced and marginalized in that way. Any person or group that denies Christ can be considered an enemy of the gospel but we as Christians are to love our enemies and reach out to them with truth.
When confronted with the replacement theology accusation I often answer the question with a question. I’ll ask this – has the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant.
Astonishingly, many CZ’s answer that question with a resounding no! According to many of them the New Covenant has not replaced the Old Covenant, or it only applies to the church, or it hasn’t been fully implemented, or it doesn’t apply to the Jews, or it was never offered to the Jews, or it is in effect but will be supplanted by a temporary return to the Old Covenant for the sake of bringing Jews to Christ.
Therefore if CZ’s begin with the premise that the New Covenant does not replace the Old Covenant at least as it applies to the nation of Israel or the Jewish people, if they read the Old Covenant promises and prophecies as if the New Covenant doesn’t really exist, that faulty premise leads them to a false understanding of the modern nation state of Israel as well as a false understanding of the true Israel of God. Garbage in – Garbage out.
So, let’s begin with this. No, I do not believe that God is “finished” with the Jewish people. I believe they have every opportunity to be reconciled to God as does every man, woman, and child on this planet be they Jew or Gentile. But in order to be reconciled to the Father the Jewish people must come through the cross of Christ just like everyone else. God is no respecter of persons. No ethnic or national identity, no biological birthright will ever bring reconciliation between God and man. And the method that God has chosen to bring both Jew and Gentile to the cross of Christ is the preaching of the gospel.
For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:11-14
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 1Co 1:21-24
It is clear from these scriptures and many others that the only New Covenant method of bringing men to reconciliation is the preaching of the gospel and that applies to both Jew and Gentile. There is nothing in scripture to suggest that the New Covenant was not applicable to the Jewish people. If there were, the apostles certainly wasted their time by taking this gospel to the Jew first and then the gentiles.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. Romans 1:16
If Jews were still to be saved by some application of the Old Covenant, why did Peter bother to preach the gospel on the day of Pentecost? (Acts 2) Better yet why did God save 3,000 souls that day by the power of Peter’s proclamation?
If there were to be some other method of bringing Jews to Christ, why did Stephen dispute with the men of the Synagogue of the Freedmen? (Acts 6:9) Why did they bring him before the Jewish scribes and elders with false accusations of blasphemy? Why did Stephen continue to proclaim the gospel while being stoned to death for his trouble? (Acts 7)
Indeed why did Paul or any of the apostles endure the trials and tribulations they incurred primarily from the Jews. Why bother with all that if God would eventually save them all by some other means?
Even so, many CZ’s in our day say God will use some other method to bring Christ to the nation of Israel. Some believe it will happen only after the modern nation of Israel is facing defeat at the hands of anti-christ. Some are convinced that after 2/3rd’s of Israel is destroyed the remaining Jews will somehow turn en-masse to Christ and be saved. The obvious question here is why hasn’t that happened before?
When Jerusalem and the entire nation of Israel was destroyed in 70 AD was there any national repentance and turning to Christ? How about the holocaust of the 1940’s? Did Hitler cause Jews to turn to Christ? How about any of the tribulations Jews have faced down through the centuries? None of those things have brought Jews to Christ because those are not the methods ordained by the Father to reconcile them to the Messiah.
Yet during all those tribulations and more, Jews have been coming to Christ through the preaching of the gospel. For over 2,000 years and still today Jews are coming to Christ through the same gospel message the apostles preached. There is no other means by which men can be saved. (Acts 4:12)
Some CZ’s insist that Jews will be saved when they see Christ return in glory. They use the prophecy of Zechariah.
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zec 12:10
There are several problems with that particular interpretation the first of which is salvation comes by faith, not by sight (2 Cor 5:7). If physically seeing him is to bring salvation, God becomes a respecter of persons and a liar. He would be allowing Jews salvation by sight, giving Jews an opportunity afforded no other group of people in all of history.
And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they. Acts 15:7-11
Peter preached the gospel to the household of Roman Centurion Cornelius, a gentile (Acts 10). He saw the Lord pour out the Holy Spirit upon them and he concludes that God desires to save Jews and Gentiles both by that method, the preaching of the gospel.
Finally we know that God will not bring salvation to the Jews at some future time by looking upon him because according to the Apostle John, Zechariah’s prophecy was fulfilled at the cross. Writing about what he had personally witnessed at Calvary, John said;
And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe. For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, “Not one of His bones shall be broken.” And again another Scripture says, “They shall look on Him whom they pierced.” John 19:35-37
John quoted Old Covenant scripture as proof that Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled these Messianic prophecies. Not one of his bones shall be broken was a fulfillment of David’s Messianic Psalm 34:20. It also fulfilled the symbolism of the Passover lamb (Exodus 12:46 & Numbers 9:12) And they shall look upon Him whom they pierced fulfilled Zechariah 12:10.
Therefore Zechariah 12:10 is not some far off future promise of salvation by sight. It was a messianic prophesy fulfilled by Christ at the cross, witnessed and testified to by John so that the Jewish people would know that Jesus is the promised Messiah.
I began by stating that CZ’s read scripture as if the New Covenant didn’t exist. In part 2 of this series we will see how scripture itself interprets prophecy in light of the New Covenant.
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I got that phrase from this site.Me too! Well said (I LOVE a word picture analogy). It's that much easier to get out of the web if you've never become entangled in the first place!
It's page on Dispenstionalism is a fairly extensive study on that doctrine..........
Grace Online Library – Historic Baptist, Reformed & Puritan Resources
Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture............
Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part III by Gospel Plow – Grace Online Library
Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part III by Gospel Plow
5. How the Pretribulational Rapture Denies the Gospel
We have discussed the fact that the dispensationalist’s understanding of ‘dispensation’ invalidates the reality of grace in any age, how the dispensational ‘Kingdom Offer’ impugns the honesty of God and makes the gospel nothing more than an afterthought, and how presumed distinctions between Israel and the church deny the New Covenant to either. We will now examine how the peculiarly dispensational doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture of the Church makes manifest these errors.
The novel doctrine of the pretribulational rapture is central to dispensational teaching. The removal of the church to heaven preceding the Tribulation period, when the stopped prophetic clock begins ticking for Israel again with the ‘Seventieth Week of Daniel’, was Darby’s innovation.
Darby broke not only from previous millenarian teaching but from all of church history by asserting that Christ’s second coming would occur in two stages. The first, an invisible ‘secret rapture’ of true believers could happen at any moment, ending the great ‘parenthesis’ or church age which began when the Jews rejected Christ. 24
Scofield also taught this doctrine along with Chafer, Ryrie, Walvoord, etc. At dispensational schools, failure to hold steadfastly to the doctrine of the pretribulational rapture may have dire consequences.
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Its origin is found below in a video that I produced for YouTube.
It started with Edward Irving's translation of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty" by Manuel Lacunza, and Irving's presentation of the book at the Albury conferences.
Darby adopted the doctrine after Irving died in 1834.
Darby later divided scripture into that for Israel, and that for the Church, and then became the doctrine's greatest salesman.
He brought the doctrine to the United States about the time of the Civil War.
Genesis of Dispensational Theology
PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418
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To the best of my knowledge none of those earlier sources claim Jews would come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time.
That claim is one of the greatest errors of the Two Peoples of God doctrine, of modern Dispensational Theology.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Humans are born in the flesh, sinners, dead in trespasses and sin.
This has not changed, and politics has only gotten more deceptive world wide, religiously and secular. Politics was not 'good' since Israelites rejected Yahuweh and asked for a king to rule over them instead of Yahuweh, to be like other countries (like Britain and the USA, and practically if not actually every other country today and for centuries.)
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mkgal said:
BABerean said:
That's what I offered - a commentary written over 100 years ago (Thomas Coke died in 1814) - so there's an extra 100 years there for good measure.
Another one:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers (published 1877)
(25) The hour is coming.—The same solemn words repeat in another form the same great truth. The reference here, as in the whole of this paragraph (John 5:21-27), is to the spiritually dead. This is shown by the “now is,” which cannot be applied to the physical resurrection, and cannot be explained by the instances of physical restoration to life during the earthly ministry of our Lord; and also by the last clause, where “live” must mean the higher spiritual life, as it does in the whole context. It is shown too by the parallelism of the clauses with those of the previous verse:—
“He that heareth”. . . . “the dead shall hear”
“My word”. . . .“the voice of the Son of God,”
“Hath eternal life”. . . . “they that hear shall live.” The world is as a vast moral graveyard where men lie dead in sin,—sense-bound hand and foot, with spirits buried in bodies which should be holy temples, but have become as unclean tombs; but the voice of the Son of God speaks, and spirit, love, life, passes through the chambers of death, quickening souls whose death is as yet but a sleep, and those who hear and obey come forth into new life.
(25) The hour is coming.—The same solemn words repeat in another form the same great truth. The reference here, as in the whole of this paragraph (John 5:21-27), is to the spiritually dead. This is shown by the “now is,” which cannot be applied to the physical resurrection, and cannot be explained by the instances of physical restoration to life during the earthly ministry of our Lord; and also by the last clause, where “live” must mean the higher spiritual life, as it does in the whole context. It is shown too by the parallelism of the clauses with those of the previous verse:—
“He that heareth”. . . . “the dead shall hear”
“My word”. . . .“the voice of the Son of God,”
“Hath eternal life”. . . . “they that hear shall live.” The world is as a vast moral graveyard where men lie dead in sin,—sense-bound hand and foot, with spirits buried in bodies which should be holy temples, but have become as unclean tombs; but the voice of the Son of God speaks, and spirit, love, life, passes through the chambers of death, quickening souls whose death is as yet but a sleep, and those who hear and obey come forth into new life.
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From your scripture link above.
"Context
21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Two Resurrections
25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
30“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
I also find "Two Resurrections" in the passage.
There is the spiritual resurrection, upon faith in Christ.
And the resurrection and judgment of the dead in the tombs, at the Second Coming of Christ.
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I've never disagreed that Scripture attests to two resurrections (and this is really off topic, so if you wish to continue, please make a new thread as I won't respond again to this side discussion). The article by Richard Beck states that "when resurrection themes do occur they often have to do with restoration" - so no Scripture has to be "ignored in order to make that work".
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Back to the article about the Geneva Bible (The Source of America’s Love for Israel | SHARPER IRON)
Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers (Rom. 11:28).
Again, that he may join the Jews and Gentiles together as it were in one body, and especially may teach what duty the Gentiles owe to the Jews, he beateth this into their heads, that the nation of the Jews is not utterly cast off without hope of recovery … . In that, that God respecteth not what they deserve, but what he promised to Abraham.6
**************************************************
In the providence of God, the authors behind these notes in the Geneva Bible summarized two overarching truths regarding God’s Chosen People—namely, that their current state of unbelief is neither complete nor permanent. Rather, as a well-known and much-beloved (to dispensationalists) contemporary study Bible puts it:
Israel’s blindness is partial (Jews are being saved today) and temporary (until they acknowledge Jesus at His second coming).7
While we may not see direct evidence of a belief in the future restoration of Israel taking hold among the Pilgrims,8 we do know that the sentiment behind these particular notes in the Geneva Bible began to have an influence upon the Puritans who followed them. ~ The Source of America’s Love for Israel | SHARPER IRON
The trouble I see with these notes is the identification of "Israel" here (as well as the usage of the phrase "nation of Jews"). Just like modern dispensational theology, this framework still is dividing the People of God and neglects to recognize that the early church was made up of faithful Jewish believers (there's no need to wait for Him to "join the Jews and Gentiles together as it were one body". That already happened in the first century - recorded beautifully in the New Testament). Also - God has already fulfilled His promise to Abraham.Again, that he may join the Jews and Gentiles together as it were in one body, and especially may teach what duty the Gentiles owe to the Jews, he beateth this into their heads, that the nation of the Jews is not utterly cast off without hope of recovery … . In that, that God respecteth not what they deserve, but what he promised to Abraham.6
**************************************************
In the providence of God, the authors behind these notes in the Geneva Bible summarized two overarching truths regarding God’s Chosen People—namely, that their current state of unbelief is neither complete nor permanent. Rather, as a well-known and much-beloved (to dispensationalists) contemporary study Bible puts it:
Israel’s blindness is partial (Jews are being saved today) and temporary (until they acknowledge Jesus at His second coming).7
While we may not see direct evidence of a belief in the future restoration of Israel taking hold among the Pilgrims,8 we do know that the sentiment behind these particular notes in the Geneva Bible began to have an influence upon the Puritans who followed them. ~ The Source of America’s Love for Israel | SHARPER IRON
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This has been thoroughly debunked in both of two recently published books, as well as in numerous other places.
The books I speak of are "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, published in 2015, and "Ancient Dispensational Truth," by James C. Morris (OK - me,) published in 2018. Both of these books conclusively demonstrate that the essence of dispensationalism, including the national restoration of Israel, was being clearly taught long before the time of Darby. And even long before the time of Manuel Lacunza, who some claim is the original source of Darby's ideas.
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Your claims about Watson's book have been thoroughly debunked on this forum.
I bought Watson's book, because you recommended it.
Watson claimed those who saw the Church being removed before the final conflagration were Dispensationalists.
I believe the same thing, and am in no way a promoter of modern Dispensational Theology.
You have claimed to understand the importance of the New Covenant, but have failed to produce even one line from any of your books about the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
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mkgal1 said:
I didn't word my post very clearly. I shouldn't have written, "It began when Darby and Newton were still united". It's more accurate to say the dispensational framework was around prior to Newton and Darby's split.
BABerean had claimed that the dispensational framework was Darby's alone (after he and Newton had gone their separate ways) but, from what I could tell, there are nuances of dispensational teaching in the Geneva Study Bible (and that was 300 years prior to when Darby was off on his own).
So I'm in agreement that there was dispensationalism prior to Darby.
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That belief does belong to the dispensational/futurist theology. So whether you're offended by being in that group or not - that is believing a key tenet of dispensational teaching.
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Hello mkgal. Yes, that is a most peculiar view of BABerean, who is supposedly a "partial preterist" .
Most all Preterists/Amills are aware of the Dispensationalist' view of a future premill "rapture", which is easily debunked by the reading of Josephus and the 1st century Jewish Wars in conjunction with Daniel, the 70ad Olivet Discourse and Revelation.......
JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted
Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page
50 ways Harold Camping's pre-tribulation Rapture contridicts the bible
50 ways that Rapture & premillennialism contradicts the Bible
Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
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