The Dangerous Confusion & Delusion In Dispensationalism & Christian Zionism Doctrines
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Hello mkgal. I did a google search on the Geneva Bible vs the Scofield Bible and came up with some interesting links and history concerning those. [I use Young's Literal Translation. Rotherham's is also a good literal translation, but a little awkward to read for newer Christians]
I also compare the major Greek texts that various Bible versions use.......
Greek New Testament - Parallel Greek New Testament by John Hurt
search "geneva bible vs scofield bible"
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&sxsrf=ACYBGNQ2DI09nhsZ8GvhWytKftB-cbSnMg:1570292879119&source=hp&ei=j8SYXZ7QBIeqtQW84ZbYCw&q=geneva+bible+vs+scofield+bible&oq=geneva+bible+vs+scofield+bible&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i299j33i160.1929.15792..16298...0.0..0.300.3202.14j14j1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i131j0j35i39j0i22i30j33i22i29i30.H1rO-Emy0Z0&ved=0ahUKEwje04DqxIXlAhUHVa0KHbywBbsQ4dUDCAc&uact=5
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The Reformed Reader introduction to the geneva bible for the historic Baptist faith.
For the last three centuries Protestants have fancied themselves the heirs of the Reformation, the Puritans, the Calvinists, and the Pilgrims who landed at Plymouth Rock. This assumption is one of history's greatest ironies. Today's Protestants laboring under that assumption use the King James Bible. Most of the newer Bibles such as the Revised Standard Version are simply updates of the King James.
The irony is that none of the groups named in the preceding paragraph used a King James Bible nor would they have used it if it had been given to them free. The Bible in use by those groups until it went out of print in 1644, was the Geneva Bible. The first Geneva Bible, both Old and New Testaments, was first published in English in 1560 in what is now Geneva, Switzerland,* William Shakespeare, John Bunyan, John Milton, the Pilgrims who landed on Plymouth Rock in 1620, and other luminaries of that era used the Geneva Bible exclusively.
Until he had his own version named after him, so did King James I of England. James I later tried to disclaim any knowledge of the Geneva Bible, though he quotes the Geneva Bible in his own writing, As a Professor Eadie reported it:.......................
During the 16th Century and the one preceding it, the Spanish Empire, a colossus larger than the Roman Empire, had been unable to stamp out the Reformation with the world's finest and most well equipped armies. The Spaniards needn't have bothered. What the armies of Catholic Spain were unable to make a dent in, one sadistic sodomite, James I, did with a pair of censoring scissors.
The Reformation, and the blood of millions who fought for it, apparently went for nothing. Protestant churches of today hardly resemble the churches of the Reformation.
Today's preachers study the Scofield Reference Edition of the King James, a volume that contains marginal notes that would seem no more accurate to John Calvin and John Knox than Mother Goose. The blind are once more leading the blind. This reprinted edition of the 1599.
Geneva Bible is probably the last sputtering flame of the Reformation. The works of John Milton, John Calvin, John Knox, George Buchanan, William Tyndale, and the rest can still be found on the shelves in the public libraries. Such works are checked out by uninterested college students on an average of about one volume every ten years, no one in today's churches reads them.
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An interesting discussion on the Geneva vs Scofield Bibles...........
Geneva/Scofield Study Bible Comparison
Does anyone know if there has ever been a study done comparing the notes of the Geneva Bible with the Scofield Bible? I am taking a class next semester (Christian Thought 1 & 2) and am thinking of doing a research paper on some of the differences in the notes (should the professor allow it). Of course, I would have to narrow my paper to a few key passages (Gen. 1, for example) for the sake of time and paper length.
Just wanted to do a preliminary check to see if anyone knew of any existing papers/studies. Thanks!
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Not based on the scripture found below.
We are gathered on the day of His Second Coming.
He then burns up this rotten, sin-cursed world, bringing in the New Heavens, and the New Earth.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
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Then there is 2 Peter 3:12 concerning 1st century Armageddon/Gog-Magog war.....
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matthew 24:
3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being? and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-consummation<4930> of the Age?
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This verse in Peter is the only one that uses "day of God" which is used in only 2 verses of the entire Bible. [tho the phrase "the Day of the Lord" is used many times] and is used in Revelation concerning Armageddon/Gog-Magog............
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
"day of god" occurs 2 times in 2 verses in the NKJV.
2 Peter 3:12
toward expectation and hastening the parousian<3952> of the day of the God, by which heavens, being fired<1448> shall being dissolved/loosed<3089> dissolved, and elements being burned<2741> is being melted<5082>
Revelation 16:14
For they are spirits of demons, doing sings which is going out on the kings of the whole inhabited-house/land/oikoumenhV <3625>to be mobilizing/leading them into the battle of the great day of God Almighty.
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You voted Armageddon and Gog-Magog are the same events.
The only difference is, I believe 1st century Jerusalem is showing in Revelation and you believe it is a future Jerusalem.......
Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?
- *
I view them as the same event
17 vote(s)
23.9% - I view them as different events
43 vote(s)
60.6% - I am not sure
7 vote(s)
9.9% - Does it really matter?
4 vote(s)
5.6%
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Debunking requires actually demonstrating that something is incorrect. You have alleged this. But you have not demonstrated it. For you cannot. What has been actually and thoroughly debunked here is the false accusations you keep pressing against Dispensationalists.
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If you can show an earlier source which taught that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, please do so.
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The errors of "different schools of theological interpretation" are revealed by the scripture their proponents must ignore to make their doctrine work.
The whole of scripture reveals them for what they really are.
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Why and who are you asking? You didn't quote anyone.....
1Th 5:9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2Ti 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2Ti 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Gal 2:16
having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
1Pe 4:16
and if as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; and let him glorify God in this respect;
A few sites:
Christian scholars say Jews can be saved without faith in Christ
An ecumenical group of Christian academicians announce radical departure from traditionally-held views of salvation.
Rejecting a centuries-old hall mark of Christian teaching on salvation, an ecumenical group of Christian scholars in September said Jews can be saved without coming to faith in Jesus Christ.
Claiming "Jews are in an eternal covenant with God," 21 members of the Christian Scholars Group on Christian-Jewish Relations challenged the traditional Christian view of Jesus as savior for all humankind. Because faithful Jews are already in right relationship with God, they said, "We renounce missionary efforts directed at converting Jews."
"We know there has been a long tradition of anti-Judaism within that Christian tradition," says Joseph Tyson, chair of the scholars group and professor emeritus at Southern Methodist University. "It's based on certain misperceptions of history, and it's theologically invalid ... We're convinced that a re-thinking of Christian attitudes toward Jews is central, indispensable and sacred."
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What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means
Necessary for Salvation
As we have seen, God introduced salvation to the world through his chosen people, the Jews. God’s revelation to the Jews found its fulfillment in Christ, the Messiah, who established the Catholic Church. The grace necessary for salvation continues to come from Christ, through his Church. Those who innocently do not know and embrace this might still attain salvation but those who knowingly and willingly choose to reject it, reject salvation on God’s terms.
The Catechism (once again quoting Lumen Gentium) summarizes all this as follows:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation:
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New Vatican document reflects on relations between Catholics, Jews
Vatican City — Catholics are called to witness to their faith in Jesus before all people, including Jews, but the Catholic Church “neither conducts nor supports” any institutional missionary initiative directed toward Jews, says a new document from a Vatican commission.
How God will save the Jews if they do not explicitly believe in Christ is “an unfathomable divine mystery,” but one which must be affirmed since Catholics believe that God is faithful to his promises and therefore never revoked his covenant with the Jewish people, it says.
In the statement, “The Gifts and the Calling of God Are Irrevocable,” the Pontifical Commission for Religious Relations With the Jews gives thanks for 50 years of Catholic-Jewish dialogue and looks at some of the theological questions that have arisen in the dialogue and in Catholic theology since the Second Vatican Council.
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Jewish People Do Not Need Jesus for Salvation | Jewish Voice Ministries International
Dual Covenant Theology teaches that Jewish People have a separate path to God through the Mosaic and Abrahamic Covenants. This too is false. The doctrine developed after the Holocaust when Christians thought the Jews had suffered enough and needed to be accepted and affirmed. Although well meaning, this is a very dangerous lie.
Hear the important words of Jonathan Bernis on this lie:
As I was growing up, whenever someone tried to share the Gospel with me, my first response was always, “I’m Jewish.” And then I always received an apology. By apologizing for sharing the Gospel with me, what these well-meaning, born-again, evangelical Christians were doing was reinforcing the lie that Jesus is not for the Jews.
Jesus Himself said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6 TLV).
The declaration in Acts 4:12: “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved,” makes it clear that salvation is through Yeshua alone, for all— Jew and Gentile alike.
Messianic Judaism, or the use of the term “Jewish Christianity,” is not the lie here. The lie is that Jewish People have a different way apart from faith in Yeshua. Jews who believe in Jesus remain Jews, always and forever, but the Bible presents that there is no other way to reach the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob but through His Anointed Messiah, Yeshua.
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You're starting with a filter and reading Scripture through that lens (we all do). What's revealed is what's been pointed out to us (typically) through commentary.
But this discussion isn't about comparing Scripture to schools of interpretation. It's about what falls into the dispensational framework - and the rapture is all a key part of futurism/dispensationalism.
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Honestly - looking at all of this is new to me (within the last year) but, ISTM, that a large part of our schisms in theology has to do with political struggles of the past. The Franciscan order of the Catholic church and the Greek Orthodox Church have seemed to have avoided a lot of the effects of the political power struggles.
These are the two main divisions I see in interpretation of the Scriptures (Futurism and Preterism). Sides were taken in this issue of the [false] interpretation that was being taught unanimously by reformation preachers in the late 1500's that identified the papal system as the Antichrist, and the Roman Church as Babylon. That caused a counter narrative to be formed - and interpretations of Revelation, Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel were all tampered with and moved away from the original way our early church had interpreted them.
These are the two main divisions I see in interpretation of the Scriptures (Futurism and Preterism). Sides were taken in this issue of the [false] interpretation that was being taught unanimously by reformation preachers in the late 1500's that identified the papal system as the Antichrist, and the Roman Church as Babylon. That caused a counter narrative to be formed - and interpretations of Revelation, Ezekiel, and the Book of Daniel were all tampered with and moved away from the original way our early church had interpreted them.
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At the Council of Trent the Papacy came up with a Counter-Reformation.
Both the Preterism of Alcazar, and the Futurism of Riberra, were designed to take the focus off of the Papacy.
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And who could blame it. Seems everyone and their mother saw the Papacy/Rome/Vatican as being in Revelation.
As far as I know, most Preterists/Amills have never believed in that Futuristic nonsense, but mostly saw 1st century Jerusalem as being in Revelation 18........[as do I and many others]
But I suppose if not for the bravery of the Protestant Reformation, we would be under the Roman Papacy and Catholicism. Who knows...........
What if the Protestant reformation never happened?
M L...............
Martin Luther identifies the Antichrist over 500 years ago!
The quote copied below is from one of Martin Luther's last books. It was titled: "A Prelude by Martin Luther on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church".
Page 536, chapter 3.
"Nevertheless, since few know this glory of baptism and the blessedness of Christian liberty, and cannot know them because of the tyranny of the pope, I for one will walk away from it all and redeem my conscience by bringing this charge against the pope and all his papists:
Unless they will abolish their laws and traditions, and restore to Christ's churches their liberty and have it taught among them, they are guilty of all the souls that perish under this miserable captivity, and the papacy is truly the kingdom of Babylon, yes, the kingdom of the real Antichrist!
For who is " the man of sin" and "the son of perdition" but he that with his doctrines and his laws increases sins and the perdition of souls in the Church, while he sits in the Church as if he were God?
All this the papal tyranny has fulfilled, and more than fulfilled, these many centuries. It has extinguished faith, obscured the sacraments and oppressed the Gospel."
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Tyndale and defying the Pope
William Tyndale
A clergyman hopelessly entrenched in Roman Catholic dogma once taunted Tyndale with the statement, "We are better to be without Gods laws than the Popes"
Tyndale was infuriated by such Roman Catholic heresies, and he replied,
"I defy the Pope and all his laws. If God spare my life ere many years, I will cause the boy that drives the plow to know more of the scriptures than you!"
Tyndale was then strangled and burnt at the stake in the prison yard, Oct. 6, 1536. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes."
This prayer was answered three years later, in the publication of King Henry VIIIs 1539 English Great Bible.
======================
Reminds me of this passage:
2Ki 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, “LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the LORD opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
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Perhaps. The Dark Ages/Middle Ages were indeed trying times for Christians accused of heresy and not conforming to Rome's Papacy.
I have always been interested in past Church history, and CF has had it's share of RC vs Protestant debates, which I no longer get in involved in, at least for now.
From what I understand, Roman Catholicism is mainly Amill, which is ok with me
For the Last Time, Roman Catholics Aren't the Pharisees!
Was God behind the great Schism of 1054?
This thread is actually an offshoot of another thread titled "Was God behind the Reformation" [I posted the link and OP below],
and essentially I would like to get views from others on whether God had a hand in the great schism of 1054. Here is a link to a little info on the momentus event in Christian history. Thanks and God bless
Great Schism and effect on Christianity and Theology
Great Schism and effect on Christianity and Theology
Was God behind the Reformation?
Was God behind the Reformation?
I believe I have brought this up before as a reply in another thread, but it didn't get far. So I am starting a new thread for discussion.
My question: Was God behind the Reformation?
I may not hold the exact same positions as Luther or Calvin, but what I see in all the reformers was a common desire to love Jesus.
Today, there is a lot of Protestants who love Jesus and confess Him as Lord and Savior. (Romans 10:9-10).
I can not see Satan wanting people to confess Jesus as Lord and Savior. I can not see Satan wanting people to repent for their sins and to be Christ-like. Therefore, since Satan (evil) was not behind the Reformation, God must have been. Look at how many people have been saved through Protestant/Non-denominational chruchs!
Yes, there might be a lot of different denominations, but they are all united in their belief in Jesus Christ, one of the only beliefs that truely counts! It is through Jesus we are saved.
I'm only bringing this up because a lot of Orthodox and Catholic brothers seem to look down on the Reformation (something that God had to have backed). I'm just trying to understand this position.
God bless...
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Based on 1 Thessalonians chapters 4, and 5, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Peter 3:10-13, the Church is gathered by Christ on the same day as the final conflagration, at His Second Coming.
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Can you explain how the highlighted sections apply to first century Jerusalem?
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
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So you believe He comes again to collect His church and on the way out torches the rest of His creation (non-believing people included)?
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