The Difference between Daniel`s 70th Week and the Tribulation.

jgr said:

But no one after him agreed with him?

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Paul never said that God would rapture the Christians to heaven either.
What Paul stated in 1 Thess 4:17, is that the Lord will gather His people to Him. Exactly paralleled in Matthew 24:30-31, to Jerusalem, on earth, where those faithful Christians will be His priests and co-rulers. Revelation 5:9-10

nolidad said:

I would recommend to you "Footsteps of the Messiah" by Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum.
that is m y text I use in my classes and teaching. It is probably the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written.

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jgr said:

Does the book espouse a pretrib rapture, which was unknown by the overwhelming majority of the historical true Christian Church prior to the 19th century?

If so, how is it "the best written in depth study of Eschatology ever written"?

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nolidad said:

Well wit hyour sarcastic prejudcie setr aside- why don't you read it and find out? Or is that too much of a burden for you. To actually read a book before you comment on it.

And if you studied church history to know why amillenialism held sway over the church from the 4th century till the late 18th early 19th century you would not be making such uninformed comments.

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As you couldn't tell us what Bro. Fruchtenbaum believes about the rapture, this will help you.

It has nothing to do with amillennialism.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian et al were premillers prior to the 4th century.

None of them was a pretribber.

So who, after the 1st century, was a pretribber?

jgr said:

Golly
Origin

late 18th century: euphemism for God.

Gee
Origin

mid 19th century: perhaps an abbreviation of Jesus.

Dispensational discourse?

Well as I speak from a 21st century understanding of the terms- this is nice but irrelavent! As well as your commentary. I already know you think people who hold to a literal/hitorical/grammatical interpretation of Scripture (which makes all of them dispensationalists) are possibly unsaved!






Matthew 15:14
...if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

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jgr said:

Matthew 15:14
...if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

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Well I have just converted to covenant theology and your allegorical interpretation style. So though you wrote that above- We all know that what is meant is that deispensationalists have a correct though not 100% understanding of SCripture and we stand at the edge of the ditch trying to rescue covenant theology believers from falling!

See when you want to rewrite words written, you can do whatever you want with them.

Why should I believe your opinions more than the Jw's, Mormons or Romans?

nolidad said:

We all know that what is meant is that deispensationalists have a correct though not 100% understanding of SCripture and we stand at the edge of the ditch trying to rescue covenant theology believers from falling!

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Anyone who claims modern Jews will come to faith outside of the Church during a future time, has fallen for one of the greatest deceptions in the history of Christianity.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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nolidad said:

Well I have just converted to covenant theology and your allegorical interpretation style. So though you wrote that above- We all know that what is meant is that deispensationalists have a correct though not 100% understanding of SCripture and we stand at the edge of the ditch trying to rescue covenant theology believers from falling!

See when you want to rewrite words written, you can do whatever you want with them.

Why should I believe your opinions more than the Jw's, Mormons or Romans?

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"Golly Gee" was copy/pasted from a lexicon.

Matthew 15:14 was copy/pasted from the KJV.

Which of those are my opinions?

jgr said:

But no one after him agreed with him?

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Don't know. Eschatology was not a big subject of the antenicene fathers.

They were busy trying to stay alive, winning the lost, and protecting the church from the many many heresies that were pounding the church through the first 3 centuries. Of course once Augustine came to the fore- all eschatology became allegorized more and more and the truth was lost!

But it does appear that of all the Scriptural writers Paul was the only one to write on it! And he said to comfort one another with the words!
1 Thess. 5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

See those who read this letter knew that when Paul spoke of wrath it was the 70th week of Daniel.

And Paul was reminding them the church would not go through what is called the tribulation!

Many thought this was starting because of the heavy persecution and the abominations of Nero!

jgr said:

As you couldn't tell us what Bro. Fruchtenbaum believes about the rapture, this will help you.

It has nothing to do with amillennialism.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian et al were premillers prior to the 4th century.

None of them was a pretribber.

So who, after the 1st century, was a pretribber?

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Well premillers were also pretribbers in some cases. And you are right, some covenant believers are premil, some are post mil, and some are amil.

But as for Dr. Fruchtenbaum? Here is a small study>

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

nolidad said:

Well premillers were also pretribbers in some cases.

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Name one.

nolidad said:

But as for Dr. Fruchtenbaum? Here is a small study>

http://www.arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs039m.pdf

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That's a link to the same content that I linked previously.

jgr said:

Name one.



That's a link to the same content that I linked previously.

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Did you both to read it?

@nolidad

You use an excessive amount of exclamation marks in your posts. Explanation marks should be reserved for the rare occasion.

Douggg said:

You are not communicating in a manner that I can understand what you are talking about.

Daniel 11, Revelation 9, Revelation 16, are made up of segments. Some of the segments in Daniel 11 are history to us. Antiochus is in some of the historic segments of Daniel 11. But not the end times segments of Daniel 11.

The king in Daniel 11:36 is the beast. Daniel 11:36-45 is end times.

You rely on Matthew Henry for understanding of Daniel 11, and not God? Matthew Henry doesn't know what he is talking about. I am sticking with God, not Matthew Henry.

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I will await your evidence that you use to declare Matthew Henry is lying about history.

Douggg said:

@nolidad

You use an excessive amount of explanation marks in your posts. Explanation marks should be reserved for the rare occasion.

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Is that some rule I missed? I use, I think you mean exclamation marks, to highlight points. It may not be the best grammatically, but it is what I do.

nolidad said:

Did you both to read it?

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Is its title accurate i.e. does it convey what its author believes?

nolidad said:

Is that some rule I missed? I use, I think you mean exclamation marks, to highlight points. It may not be the best grammatically, but it is what I do.

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I went back and corrected the spelling. Thanks for pointing it out.

nolidad, it may be what you do, but it reflects poorly on yourself as someone who has credibility in his posts.

Also, how we communicate reflects on what type of person we are, in terms of friendliness and approachability, to others. If you want to be the type of person nobody here wants to have anything to do with you - then keep on the same path.

BABerean2 said:

Anyone who claims modern Jews will come to faith outside of the Church during a future time, has fallen for one of the greatest deceptions in the history of Christianity.


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


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Well as I know of no one who believes one can get saved apart from the gospel- most of your complaining here is moot!

Since Pentecost- any Jew or Gentile who wishes to get saved- must accept the gospel which automatically makes them a member of the church!

And no you r last parqagraph highlighted in blue does not make dispensationalism nor a pre trib rapture falls apart. One has to learn why the 70th week of Daniel is for to know that the church will not be here!

jgr said:

Is its title accurate i.e. does it convey what its author believes?

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Yes the title is accurate and yes the author believes in a pre trib rapture and goes into detail why the church will not experience the 70th week of Daniel. did you bother to read it???

jgr said:

"Golly Gee" was copy/pasted from a lexicon.

Matthew 15:14 was copy/pasted from the KJV.

Which of those are my opinions?

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As far as what my answer is?

Absolutely #1

Douggg said:

I didn't say Antichrist, but the beast.

The transition from historic to end times is Daniel 11:35.

35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

36 And the king [the beast] shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

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The beast is the Antichrist, the 11th horn etc.etc.

So because Daniel used the Word end- it has to absolutely be the end times to you? Wow, you lack a knowledge of Hebrew grammar! For this end refers to what was written before it not after it!

And at least now you have removed the transgression of Desolation from the end times you insist it must be. If we keep this up- maybe you will finally realize that most christian historians ( I say most cuz I haven't read them all) all show that Antiochus fulfilled all of Chapter 11.

nolidad said:

Yes the title is accurate and yes the author believes in a pre trib rapture and goes into detail why the church will not experience the 70th week of Daniel. did you bother to read it???

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I am intimately familiar with dispensationalism's rapture.

Dispensationalism's 70th week of Daniel is in reality a decapitated over 200th (and counting) week.

Scripture's 70th week of Daniel occurred immediately following the 69th.

The individual whom it references throughout in Daniel 9:24-27 is none other than Messiah.

jgr said:

I am intimately familiar with dispensationalism's rapture.

Dispensationalism's 70th week of Daniel is in reality a decapitated 104,000th (and counting) week.

Scripture's 70th week of Daniel occurred immediately following the 69th.

The individual whom it references throughout in Daniel 9:24-27 is none other than Messiah.

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So.

Daniel 9:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

1. Israel has made an end of sin according to you!
2. Israel has brought in everlasting righteousness according to you (remember this week is for the people of Israel)
3. Israel anointed the most holy. When?

4. The he of verse 27 goes back to its nearest antecedent, which is the prince of the people that SHALL COME (future) So what Roman prince made a 7 year covenant with Israel and broke it in teh middle of the week.?

5. So Jesus overspread abominations???????

6. Matt. 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So according to you - this is Jesus HImself?????? WOW!!!!