The Nothing Link

GTW27 · Sep 23, 2019

Hillsage said:
Please unpack this verse below for me based upon what you've just shared. I've sought God for revelation for decades, but received nothing.

JAM 3:5 So the tongue is a little member and boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire. The tongue is an unrighteous world among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the cycle of nature, and set on fire by hell.

Understanding what is in man, since the garden, is the first step in understanding this. A sin nature is whose nature? It has been said back then, that your eyes will be opened, but in truth man became blind. Jesus healing the blind, shows what happens to all who are born from above." I was blind but now I see". At the time of Noah, The Lord said that all the thoughts and imaginations of man are evil continually. Did not Jesus rebuke what was in Peter, before he received power from on high, saying," get behind me satan"? Even at the cross Jesus spoke these words," Father forgive them, for they know what they do" How could they truly know what they were doing after what had entered man. They were only following their fathers desires. And how is he described, A lier(father of lies), a killer, and a thief. And when we turn on the news what do we see? The only way this is changed is when a person is truly born again(from above). So perhaps now it can be seen(understood) how the tongue can boast and speak such evil things.(Hellish).Also All who are truly born again will walk through the purifying fire of The Lord. I have been through it and I did not lose The Faith. It is like a furnace of affliction provided by the enemy.This fire happens during a time of testing during us being refined, not after anyone's last breath. And once it is understood what is in man,(John chapter 2 last sentence) it is easily understood how the tongue is a fire. It is also easily understood how no unclean thing enters in without being first born from above. Time is running short. Those who hold onto this doctrine of universal salvation need to repent and renounce it before it is to late. Learn the lesson from His servant Job, He said, "What I have feared the most, has come upon me." I tell you truly, that Hell exist, for all that are not found in Him on the day He acts.

FineLinen · Sep 23, 2019

GTW27 said:
Time is running short. Those who hold onto this doctrine of universal salvation need to repent and renounce it before it is to late. Learn the lesson from His servant Job, He said, "What I have feared the most, has come upon me." I tell you truly, that Hell exist, for all that are not found in Him on the day He acts.

Dear GTW: at your earliest convenience please notify St. Paul of your assumptions>>>>

"For He pre-destined us to be adopted by Himself as sons through Jesus Christ--such being His gracious will and pleasure-- to the praise of the splendour of His grace with which He has enriched us in the beloved One. It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you..."

God's cherished purpose of the secret of His will=

The WHOLE radical ALL restored

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 23, 2019

"NOTHING"
at all
can
persuade Yahuweh(the Creator, Father of Yahushua(Jesus Messiah),

to go against His Own Word
to
bless a false gospel such as universalism which is promoted by those who
know
"NOTHING"....

Hillsage · Sep 23, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Fair enough, I hope someone smart comes along and gives us both more insight into this verse. Universalists are by nature a bit thick, we mostly stare at foundations.

And "I hope someone" SPIRITUAL enough comes along to give us the necesary insight to unpack this verse.

Because the problem with the church today...IMO...is too many "smart" people. Just like the church of old (last 1500 years).

The church which grieved and quenched 'the Holy Spirit truth' which 'was known' for 500 years. And subsequently fed us a theology that is so ingrained that even the "Spirit led" people are so brain-washed they are not sensitive to the 'still small voice of God' cry lies....which they never 'hear'.

Do you think he's talking about the afterlife or just using a figure of speech?

Yes, I think it is a 'figure of speech'.....for those of us missing the true depth of what scripture is more 'plainly saying', to those who are 'spiritually' hearing. Which is a pretty small group IMO. Most of the church has simply been indoctrinated to 'the dark ages'.

OK, here I go. It always bothered me that this ETERNAL FIRE believed by the orthodox, was prepared FOR "the devil and his angels"....not for US????? Was God having a brain freeze when he inspired this verse?

MAT 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

IOW; "Oh, I'm sorry you guys since it's been a while since I created things, I forgot that most of my beloved creation ends up in ETERNAL FIRE too, instead of just "the devil and his angels" which I originally meant it 'to be for'.

Now we read that same verse which makes more sense to UR/UNI believers and the rest of the church. But again ALL of us believe as much as we do AFTER coming out of indoctrinated theology ourselves....to whatever degree of understanding we presently have. Therefore even WE filter our POV through some "seeing through glass dimly" type thinking.

Now my present thinking is this. The purgative fires of God, for those of us who were "predestined, chosen, called and "ordained to believe" in this present age are the ones who are able, by the grace of Christ in us, are able to "work out our 'soul's salvation with fear and trembling." But we are all living in the Hell of this earthly/fleshly realm which the devil is the GOD of.

2CO 4:4 In their case the god of this world/aion has blinded the minds/(soul realm) of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

And the GOD GIVEN WEAPONS of "the god of this age" are 'purgative fires' and 'the threat of death ending in Hades/grave. Why do I say 'purgative fires'? Because the two times Paul turned people over to Satan, on earth, what was the hopeful goal? "That they might learn not to blaspheme." And if they didn't "learn" what was the other 'end' spoken of in scripture?....."that there spirit might be saved on the day of judgment." Hmmm. nothing mentioned about orthodox ETERNAL HELL theology.

So, in the Rev when the need for the assigned job of "devil and his angels", (as mentioned above, AND also seen in the OT life of Job) and their tools of "death and Hades/grave.....

REV 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

So what is destroyed in 'our God who is a consuming fire' and IMO the very "lake of fire" whose job it is to destroy all that is in opposition to His kingdom. And that doesn't mean annihilate the devil, his angels and all the people....it means all those works.

OK SM, short summation...all the idiotic translating of An AGE into ETERNITY has gutted the purpose of temporal hell and judgments of God who "scourges every son whom he loveth" and pushed the theological indoctrination into the 'true' never ending spiritual real of the hereafter when the ages have been summed up in God's plan....which he had from the beginning.

I'm stopping SM My post is my opinion, speaking above my pay grade of partial revelation from the Spirit of truth, mixed with the partial undertandingS of UR and UNI brethren.

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 23, 2019

Hillsage said:
...which they never 'hear'.

One person in particular tells me they themselves have never, not ever, heard the voice of Jesus, which Jesus Himself Promises ALL HIS SHEEP DO "hear His Voice"...

The same person has been misled for over 50 years by "other voices" - the ones that Jesus' sheep will not listen to and instead of following (the other voices) do actively run away from them.

FineLinen · Sep 23, 2019

Hillsage said:
And "I hope someone" SPIRITUAL enough comes along to give us the necesary insight to unpack this verse. Because the problem with the church today...IMO...is too many "smart" people. Just like the church of old (1500 years). The church which grieved and quenched 'the Holy Spirit truth' which 'was known' for 500 years. And subsequently fed us a theology that is so ingrained that even the "Spirit led" people are so brain-washed they are not sensitive to the 'still small voice of God' cry lies....which they never 'hear'.

Yes, I think it is a 'figure of speech'.....for those of us missing the true depth of what scripture is more 'plainly saying', to those who are 'spiritually' hearing. Which is a pretty small group IMO. Most of the church has simply been indoctrinated to 'the dark ages'.

OK, here I go. It always bothered me that this ETERNAL FIRE believed by the orthodox, was prepared FOR "the devil and his angels"....not for US????? Was God having a brain freeze when he inspired this verse?

MAT 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

IOW; "Oh, I'm sorry you guys since it's been a while since I created things, I forgot that most of my beloved creation ends up in ETERNAL FIRE too, instead of just "the devil and his angels" which I originally meant it 'to be for'.

Now we read that same verse which makes more sense to UR/UNI believers and the rest of the church. But again ALL of us believe as much as we do AFTER coming out of indoctrinated theology ourselves....to whatever degree of understanding we presently have. Therefore even WE filter our POV through some "seeing through glass dimly" type thinking.

Now my present thinking is this. The purgative fires of God, for those of us who were "predestined, chosen, called and "ordained to believe" in this present age are the ones who are able, by the grace of Christ in us, are able to "work out our 'soul's salvation with fear and trembling." But we are all living in the Hell of this earthly/fleshly realm which the devil is the GOD of.

2CO 4:4 In their case the god of this world/aion has blinded the minds/(soul realm) of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

And the GOD GIVEN WEAPONS of "the god of this age" are 'purgative fires' and 'the threat of death ending in Hades/grave. Why do I say 'purgative fires'? Because the two times Paul turned people over to Satan, on earth, what was the hopeful goal? "That they might learn not to blaspheme." And if they didn't "learn" what was the other 'end' spoken of in scripture?....."that there spirit might be saved on the day of judgment." Hmmm. nothing mentioned about orthodox ETERNAL HELL theology.

So, in the Rev when the need for the assigned job of "devil and his angels", (as mentioned above, AND also seen in the OT life of Job) and their tools of "death and Hades/grave.....

REV 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

So what is destroyed in 'our God who is a consuming fire' and IMO the very "lake of fire" whose job it is to destroy all that is in opposition to His kingdom. And that doesn't mean annihilate the devil, his angels and all the people....it means all those works.

OK SM, short summation...all the idiotic translating of An AGE into ETERNITY has gutted the purpose of temporal hell and judgments of God who "scourges every son whom he loveth" and pushed the theological indoctrination into the 'true' never ending spiritual real of the hereafter when the ages have been summed up in God's plan....which he had from the beginning.

I'm stopping SM My post is my opinion, speaking above my pay grade of partial revelation from the Spirit of truth, mixed with the partial undertandingS of UR and UNI brethren.

Dear Hillsage: There are nine words from the Presence that inspires me to the depths.

Exceedingly abundantly beyond all we can ask or think.

Just when one thinks they have numbered every star and galaxy, lo another countless number break from one small pinprick of light.

"If we do not die to ourselves, we cannot live to God, and he that does not live to God, is dead." -George MacDonald-

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 23, 2019

FineLinen said:
"If we do not die to ourselves, we cannot live to God, and he that does not live to God, is dead." -George MacDonald-

I don't trust MacDonald (don't know him except from references on this forum)....

but this statement of his happens to be true, or close to true. (might depend on his meaning when he said it).

".. he that DOES NOT LIVE TO GOD, IS DEAD..." nothing 'saved' about that one who does not live to God..... (most of the world rejects Jesus, thus already rejected God)

FineLinen · Sep 23, 2019

Hillsage said:
And "I hope someone" SPIRITUAL enough comes along to give us the necesary insight to unpack this verse. Because the problem with the church today...IMO...is too many "smart" people. Just like the church of old (1500 years). The church which grieved and quenched 'the Holy Spirit truth' which 'was known' for 500 years. And subsequently fed us a theology that is so ingrained that even the "Spirit led" people are so brain-washed they are not sensitive to the 'still small voice of God' cry lies....which they never 'hear'.

Yes, I think it is a 'figure of speech'.....for those of us missing the true depth of what scripture is more 'plainly saying', to those who are 'spiritually' hearing. Which is a pretty small group IMO. Most of the church has simply been indoctrinated to 'the dark ages'.

OK, here I go. It always bothered me that this ETERNAL FIRE believed by the orthodox, was prepared FOR "the devil and his angels"....not for US????? Was God having a brain freeze when he inspired this verse?

MAT 25:41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

IOW; "Oh, I'm sorry you guys since it's been a while since I created things, I forgot that most of my beloved creation ends up in ETERNAL FIRE too, instead of just "the devil and his angels" which I originally meant it 'to be for'.

Now we read that same verse which makes more sense to UR/UNI believers and the rest of the church. But again ALL of us believe as much as we do AFTER coming out of indoctrinated theology ourselves....to whatever degree of understanding we presently have. Therefore even WE filter our POV through some "seeing through glass dimly" type thinking.

Now my present thinking is this. The purgative fires of God, for those of us who were "predestined, chosen, called and "ordained to believe" in this present age are the ones who are able, by the grace of Christ in us, are able to "work out our 'soul's salvation with fear and trembling." But we are all living in the Hell of this earthly/fleshly realm which the devil is the GOD of.

2CO 4:4 In their case the god of this world/aion has blinded the minds/(soul realm) of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God.

And the GOD GIVEN WEAPONS of "the god of this age" are 'purgative fires' and 'the threat of death ending in Hades/grave. Why do I say 'purgative fires'? Because the two times Paul turned people over to Satan, on earth, what was the hopeful goal? "That they might learn not to blaspheme." And if they didn't "learn" what was the other 'end' spoken of in scripture?....."that there spirit might be saved on the day of judgment." Hmmm. nothing mentioned about orthodox ETERNAL HELL theology.

So, in the Rev when the need for the assigned job of "devil and his angels", (as mentioned above, AND also seen in the OT life of Job) and their tools of "death and Hades/grave.....

REV 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

So what is destroyed in 'our God who is a consuming fire' and IMO the very "lake of fire" whose job it is to destroy all that is in opposition to His kingdom. And that doesn't mean annihilate the devil, his angels and all the people....it means all those works.

OK SM, short summation...all the idiotic translating of An AGE into ETERNITY has gutted the purpose of temporal hell and judgments of God who "scourges every son whom he loveth" and pushed the theological indoctrination into the 'true' never ending spiritual real of the hereafter when the ages have been summed up in God's plan....which he had from the beginning.

I'm stopping SM My post is my opinion, speaking above my pay grade of partial revelation from the Spirit of truth, mixed with the partial undertandingS of UR and UNI brethren.

Where Jesus Gave Warnings Of Judgment By Jonathan Mitchell

yeshuaslavejeff · Sep 23, 2019

FineLinen said:
Where Jesus Gave Warnings Of Judgment By Jonathan Mitchell

Here is the last sentence from that link copied: "They entered into the darkness of this world where the Light of God's reign (now happening through His called-out, covenant communities) is not yet shining, but into which it is progressively coming."

Since this is a false statement, .... well.... don't believe anything in the link/ page unless able to verify by Scripture that it is truth.

The motive of the page seems to mis-direct away from the true and only Gospel of Jesus.

Shrewd Manager · Sep 24, 2019

Hillsage said:
And "I hope someone" SPIRITUAL enough comes along to give us the necesary insight to unpack this verse. Because the problem with the church today...IMO...is too many "smart" people. Just like the church of old (1500 years).

I happily stand corrected HS. We give thanks and pray for fides et ratio.

Hillsage said:
And the GOD GIVEN WEAPONS of "the god of this age" are 'purgative fires' and 'the threat of death ending in Hades/grave. Why do I say 'purgative fires'? Because the two times Paul turned people over to Satan, on earth, what was the hopeful goal? "That they might learn not to blaspheme." And if they didn't "learn" what was the other 'end' spoken of in scripture?....."that there spirit might be saved on the day of judgment." Hmmm. nothing mentioned about orthodox ETERNAL HELL theology.

The divine procedure of salvation requires that man hits the pigsty before recovery. It's the 'brazen serpent in the desert' Nehushtan remedy. Hell can't set ablaze the fireproof tongue!

Hillsage said:
So, in the Rev when the need for the assigned job of "devil and his angels", (as mentioned above, AND also seen in the OT life of Job) and their tools of "death and Hades/grave.....

Agreed...overcome by the abundance of grace and truth aka the LOF aka Lamb's Blood.

Hillsage said:
So what is destroyed in 'our God who is a consuming fire' and IMO the very "lake of fire" whose job it is to destroy all that is in opposition to His kingdom. And that doesn't mean annihilate the devil, his angels and all the people....it means all those works.

As 'satan' translates as 'adversary', God consumes the spirit of opposition/ adversity, which include all those sins listed in Rev 21:8/ 22:15.

Hillsage said:
OK SM, short summation...all the idiotic translating of An AGE into ETERNITY has gutted the purpose of temporal hell and judgments of God who "scourges every son whom he loveth" and pushed the theological indoctrination into the 'true' never ending spiritual real of the hereafter when the ages have been summed up in God's plan....which he had from the beginning.

That may be the short point. It is 'conscious torment' in the sense of painful cutting away of sin attachments, but the 'eternal' part puts a whole different complexion on it, making it retributive, hopeless and unfathomably evil.

To my mind, Jesus allows his audience to interpret Gehenna. The Pharisees get the carnal retributive version ('fire', same as they do today), whereas the disciples get the spiritual and corrective version (which becomes the 'water of life'?). So it's a case of 'Who do you say I am?' If vengeful and retributive, then that's what you'll reap, for he is faithful. The parables are full of this kind of thing.

So a shrewd manager figures it's a prudent investment in his eternal job security to lavish God's grace and forgiveness on sinners.

Hillsage · Sep 24, 2019

Delete because edit wouldn't work after posting.

Hillsage · Sep 24, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Hillsage: There are nine words from the Presence that inspires me to the depths.

Exceedingly abundantly beyond all we can ask or think.

Just when one thinks they have numbered every star and galaxy, lo another countless number break from one small pinprick of light.

"If we do not die to ourselves, we cannot live to God, and he that does not live to God, is dead." -George MacDonald-

FineLinen said:
Where Jesus Gave Warnings Of Judgment By Jonathan Mitchell

Brother, I woke up this morning thinking I sent this last night, but here it was so sending it now.

It has been a crazy busy day for me, getting out of the office almost an hour late. And then getting a text asking if I wanted to come to the church an hour later to help minister to a young gal, which I did. I thought the tissue box must have had the blessing of the fish and bread upon it. Any way just now getting home and catching up here. I did a quick look at your URL above and saw the size and will have to look at it tomorrow Lord willing.

Saturday night was a special praise and worship night at the church. Saturday afternoon I received a call from a gal who credits me greatly with saving their marriage, years ago now. Then she asked if I'll be at the church that night. I said yes. She then asked me to minister the baptism of the Holy Spirit to her son's girlfriend because she had questions. They were home from K State where he is on scholarship in football. I accepted, and I ministered to her, and she received mightily. Full flowing prayer language such as I have never seen anyone receive....since I did 50 years ago. The next day in church one of the worship leaders came up to me and told me he heard two people had received their prayer languages the night before. I asked who, he named my brother's daughter and the gal I ministered too. I laughed and told him I knew about that one. He didn't even know it was me. Our church of a 1000 has two services and I always go to the early one. But in hanging around before the second one started my brother's daughter actually came in. So I told her I'd heard she also received the night before and she said; "No I didn't. But something happened to me, I felt the Holy Spirit so strongly I shook inside and then I got so weak I thought I was going to fall down so I sit down." So I asked her if she would like to receive right now, and she said yes. So we found a quiet a spot as we could and she received almost immediately, and almost with as flowing a tongue as the girl the night before.

I write all this to you, brother because I know that you will appreciate how much more I might do for God, if only I could have ever heard the voice of Jesus to begin with.

Nite bro.

OH almost forgot. At the end of the worship on Saturday night the pastor asked the 200 or so who showed up, out of a church of 1000 (sad), to ask God for something and then spend 5 minute alone with him. I actually left a row 8 seat and went to the back of the church kneeling and asking for what was on my heart. After the service the pastor looked me up and said the the Holy Spirit told him to ask me what it was I wanted. Thank God the Holy Spirit spoke to him about me, because, in case you haven't heard I've certainly never heard His voice. It was VERY HARD to answer pastor, because it was a huge request. It took a minute to respond...with tears in my eyes. Pastor Kris then said he was watching me minister earlier to the girl and he said; "You were amazing to watch (from afar, because we were secluded in that big empty sanctuary). Why did you ever leave this church 9 years ago." I told him it was because God told me too. He grabbed me and gave me the biggest hug he's ever given me....since we returned....just over a year ago. Anyway I just wanted to share this with you, because you know me well enough to know I am not a liar. I just wish I could hear God as well as 'one' other person on this thread.

FineLinen · Sep 24, 2019

My dear Sage: What a glorious journey of living by His faith entails. His mighty unction breaks the fetters that bind us to this present transitory existence into the exceedingly abundant Realm of His great glory.

Some years ago the Lord gave us a new song>>>

Cause me to hear Your voice,

Open my understanding,

Cause me to see Your greatness oh Lord,

Your glory apprehending,

Here in the highest mount,

To You are sons ascending,

Oh write Your law within our hearts,

Righteousness reigns unending,

Your majesty revealed.

Hillsage · Sep 24, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
I happily stand corrected HS. We give thanks and pray for fides et ratio.

You kind of got me here SM. First off, I just realized that my user initials HS are the same abbreviation I use for Holy Spirit. When I figured out that probably isn't what you meant, I moved to the second sentence only to be stumped with the Latin phrase. A phrase for which I have to thank HG, for giving me the interpretation of that 'tongue from man'.....sorry, I'm speaking of Holy Google of course. ^_^

The divine procedure of salvation requires that man hits the pigsty before recovery. It's the 'brazen serpent in the desert' Nehushtan remedy. Hell can't set ablaze the fireproof tongue!

Oh yes, I know the drill. Leaving 'our church' 9 years ago, according to his word, took me to a new experiential LOW in God. The last 4 years had gotten so bad I repeatedly confessed to feeling like our pastor was indeed responsible for my 'wilderness' experience. This was sad because for the first 4 years, of his coming (to our church of 23 years), I went to levels in my spiritual journey which were absolutely wonderful....and a bit 'puffing up' I suspect, in hindsight. So the Lord called me out of my 'confessed wilderness' and let me languish....in the desert. Great promotion.....From spiritual heights to wilderness to desert. Since being called back, I believe the lesson learned in the last years will hopefully be greater anointing than I walked in those first 4 years.

Agreed...overcome by the abundance of grace and truth aka the LOF aka Lamb's Blood.

LOF aka Lam's Blood???? May have to 'unpack that scripturally for me bro. It truly is a fact though that When one sits in 'his presence you can not help but come away with the Isaiah experience of feeling that coal touch your mouth and cleanse your lips.

As 'satan' translates as 'adversary', God consumes the spirit of opposition/ adversity, which include all those sins listed in Rev 21:8/ 22:15.

I'm a bit 'out there' with the first book of the bible I ever read after accepting Jesus. I hadn't been in a church for 4 years since cursing God and putting a word curse on myself telling Him that if I couldn't have communion or ever get married again unless my divorce wife died as 'the church taught, then to Hell with Him. That was when I told Him that if that's what He was all about then I'd go to Hell with my friends and if I was then I would be worthy of it when I got there. Any, never having had a bible before, it looked like a bit of a read....so I just decided to skip to the 'last chapter'....uh huh....the REV. :doh:

I've gone through several of the different belief systems concerning that 'book' since the beginning. Mostly now I just tell people that the dumber Christians are the 'quicker' they go to that book to prove their point. It was written when "Joh was in the Spirit" the day he wrote it and it has been interpreted by those in the "SMART" crowds mentioned earlier.

That may be the short point. It is 'conscious torment' in the sense of painful cutting away of sin attachments, but the 'eternal' part puts a whole different complexion on it, making it retributive, hopeless and unfathomably evil.

Of course it hurts to cut the weight of the lies of the enemy. Lies which he has programmed in us to live in sin, even after getting our orthodox ETERNAL HELL fire insurance policy. :doh:

But in His cutting away of sin we also loose a lot of spiritual weight to run to win...praise be to Him.

HEB 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

To my mind, Jesus allows his audience to interpret Gehenna. The Pharisees get the carnal retributive version ('fire', same as they do today), whereas the disciples get the spiritual and corrective version (which becomes the 'water of life'?). So it's a case of 'Who do you say I am?' If vengeful and retributive, then that's what you'll reap, for he is faithful. The parables are full of this kind of thing.

I think you are right. His message was to the Jews, and the literal and symbolic dump of their lives. A dump they could totally relate to.

So a shrewd manager figures it's a prudent investment in his eternal job security to lavish God's grace and forgiveness on sinners.

And Hillsage has no trouble at all doing that. It is the pharisees of today that malign my Lord as bad as the money changers maligned the "House of prayer" that get me righteously indignant. But I'm still trying to relate to their sad situations as best I can. The words of their mouth do certainly reveal what's in their hearts...and it is sad to see.

Shrewd Manager · Sep 25, 2019

Hillsage said:
You kind of got me here SM. First off, I just realized that my user initials HS are the same abbreviation I use for Holy Spirit. When I figured out that probably isn't what you meant

Haha had a vague feeling I recognised those initials from somewhere!

Hillsage said:
I moved to the second sentence only to be stumped with the Latin phrase.

Seems I'm throwing up roadblocks, forgive me bro. I may have listened to one too many Roman Catholic messages.

Hillsage said:
Great promotion.....From spiritual heights to wilderness to desert.

You must be greatly loved! I always thought the 'wilderness' and the 'desert' were the same kind of experience. You've developed some hard-won discernment there. You're saying you left the wilful sinning and found only unsatisfied spiritual thirst outside your old church?

Hillsage said:
Since being called back, I believe the lesson learned in the last years will hopefully be greater anointing than I walked in those first 4 years.

I pray God has granted you greater wisdom and strength.

Hillsage said:
LOF aka Lam's Blood???? May have to 'unpack that scripturally for me bro.

Many seem to react at this connection, but it seems pretty straightforward to me (let me know if you think I'm mucking with it). In Rev:

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (7:14)

And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. (12:11)

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. (22:14) The Douay-Rheims says 'wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb' here.

So the condition of entry into the City of God links to Rev 21:27:

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

Right, so to get into the City our name must be in the Lamb's book of life, and to do that sinners need to conquer by/ wash their robes in Lamb's blood, ie purify the flesh of sin through Christ - by grace and truth. Ipso facto the holy fire/pure is the life of Christ, his pooled lifeblood.

Hillsage said:
that coal touch your mouth and cleanse your lips.

Amen!

Hillsage said:
Mostly now I just tell people that the dumber Christians are the 'quicker' they go to that book to prove their point.

Haha for the first few years I avoided Rev on the basis it was too 'advanced' for me, and I'd need to get real familiar with the rest of the Bible first. Then when it was explained to me in simple narrative terms as the culmination of God's salvific plan, I read it and it made enough sense. Sure, there are many signs (who's the scarlet woman, who's the second beast stuff.) that are too speculative to apply, but that side of it interests me less than the fulfillment parts. Especially tracing the references back through the OT - that's the bit that really gives a Rev-based argument its foundations imho.

Hillsage said:
so I just decided to skip to the 'last chapter'....uh huh....the REV.

Praise God for telling us how it ends, with new life and grace to all.

Hillsage said:
loose a lot of spiritual weight

Yea beat the spiritual flab with patience and forbearance. I feel a motivational message coming on Pentecostal style.

Hillsage said:
I think you are right. His message was to the Jews, and the literal and symbolic dump of their lives. A dump they could totally relate to.

Like the saying goes, some people are so poor all they have is money. I'm also referring to the Pharisee mindset in the church. Holier-than-thou hypocrisy, crossing sea and land to make a new acolyte twice as much a son of hell as them.

Hillsage said:
as bad as the money changers

Right, cause 'paying fire insurance premiums' is no better than buying indulgences, which is a form of simony.

But Peter replied, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money!...For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bond of iniquity.” (Acts 8:20, 23)

Peace and blessings brother.

Hillsage · Sep 26, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
You must be greatly loved! I always thought the 'wilderness' and the 'desert' were the same kind of experience. You've developed some hard-won discernment there. You're saying you left the wilful sinning and found only unsatisfied spiritual thirst outside your old church?

No, it wasn't willful sinning. It was God calling us out of a church where the pastor situation was not good. I was in the church for 23 years before he came. When he had a 'revelation' that God wanted to 'build a new building', 'buy more land and build a new outreach center' and 'start a charter school' I didn't catch 'the revelation'. It's a long story butt the short version is God called us out for 8 years until he left and a new pastor had come. But he still didn't make the move back clear until just over a year ago.

Many seem to react at this connection, but it seems pretty straightforward to me (let me know if you think I'm mucking with it). In Rev:

I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (7:14)

And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. (12:11)

Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. (22:14) The Douay-Rheims says 'wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb' here.

So the condition of entry into the City of God links to Rev 21:27:

But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

I see where you are coming from, but can't say I have any real leading that your 'correlation summation' is right or wrong.

Right, so to get into the City our name must be in the Lamb's book of life, and to do that sinners need to conquer by/ wash their robes in Lamb's blood, ie purify the flesh of sin through Christ - by grace and truth. Ipso facto the holy fire/pure is the life of Christ, his pooled lifeblood.

All I can say here is I don't think that the Lamb's book of life is some book your 'moniker' name is written in when you accept Jesus. And I think that's what you're saying too, right?

Haha for the first few years I avoided Rev on the basis it was too 'advanced' for me, and I'd need to get real familiar with the rest of the Bible first. Then when it was explained to me in simple narrative terms as the culmination of God's salvific plan, I read it and it made enough sense. Sure, there are many signs (who's the scarlet woman, who's the second beast stuff.) that are too speculative to apply, but that side of it interests me less than the fulfillment parts. Especially tracing the references back through the OT - that's the bit that really gives a Rev-based argument its foundations imho.

There are a number of views for the interpretation of the Revelation. Preterism, Futurism, Historism and Symbolism. Both Preterism and Futurism were traced back to the Catholic Jesuits who were to come up with doctrines to take the pressure off of the Pope, because Martin Luther was declaring him to be the antichrist and 'the Church of Rome' was loosing too many people.

I'm presently in a study which I like better than any of them...it is Spiritual-ism. John was "in the spirit on the Lord's day" when he got the revelation and you need to be in the spirit to understand it. The author started this study in 2001 and he sends it out via snail mail in 10-12 page lessons every month. So don't ask me to 'sum it up' :scratch:

The last lesson was #213 and we are at chapter 19. Many times over the years I've thought Jesus might return when he finishes. He has been an 'anointed pen' in my life since I first started getting his teachings in 1982. He believes that most of the 'spiritualizing' of the book done today is with the carnal mind and therefore simply FANTASY.

Like the saying goes, some people are so poor all they have is money. I'm also referring to the Pharisee mindset in the church. Holier-than-thou hypocrisy, crossing sea and land to make a new acolyte twice as much a son of hell as them.

A sad but prevalent sickness in the church of today, unfortunately.

Right, cause 'paying fire insurance premiums' is no better than buying indulgences, which is a form of simony.

I actually feel sorry for the malignment of Simon Magnus. The person for which the term simony comes from. What did he do, that the church hasn't made into the acceptable method of being considered a 'pastor' today? You pay money to go to a seminary to prove to people you are 'qualified' to minister. Being 'called' isn't even a requirement, for crying out loud. The founding pastor of our church shared years back how he led his roommate to Christ in seminary school. The guy was studying to become a pastor and never even was saved. Just had a good dose of the 'spirit of religion'.

FineLinen · Sep 27, 2019

FineLinen said:
“For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

NOTHING!

Not death.

Not life.

Not angels.

Not powers.

Not the present/ not the future.

No power.

Friends: There have been some who have questioned the context of these mighty words from our Father. Are these words ONLY for the elect, the children of God? ?

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Shrewd Manager · Oct 1, 2019

Hillsage said:
But he still didn't make the move back clear until just over a year ago.

Sorry about the delay bro, got a little sidetracked.

So are you saying the church you've returned to is a spiritual desert?

Hillsage said:
I see where you are coming from, but can't say I have any real leading that your 'correlation summation' is right or wrong.

Ok, I could be mixing my metaphors, but fairly confident on the identity of Lamb's blood and holy fire.

Hillsage said:
All I can say here is I don't think that the Lamb's book of life is some book your 'moniker' name is written in when you accept Jesus. And I think that's what you're saying too, right?

Indeed, though it appears as a book in the vision and is no doubt the right metaphor for the job.

Hillsage said:
The author started this study in 2001 and he sends it out via snail mail in 10-12 page lessons every month. So don't ask me to 'sum it up' The last lesson was #213 and we are at chapter 19.

Serious business! You'll now be my source for answers to Revelation's imponderables moving forward.

Hillsage said:
He believes that most of the 'spiritualizing' of the book done today is with the carnal mind and therefore simply FANTASY.

I'd agree with that. The basic approach I take is that it is written in the apocalyptic genre but subverts that genre. Unfortunately most people don't get it and assume it's all about God smashing stuff up. But here the revelation is ultimately of how salvation of all creation is delivered. It's about reading it Christologically. Now who could argue with that hermeneutic?

Hillsage said:
The guy was studying to become a pastor and never even was saved. Just had a good dose of the 'spirit of religion'.

You're right, Simon Magus was small beer compared to the institutional beast that's now churning out ready-made career-oriented blind guides.

Hillsage · Oct 1, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Sorry about the delay bro, got a little sidetracked.

So are you saying the church you've returned to is a spiritual desert?

No, I'm saying my last 4 years there were a 'spiritual wilderness' time for me. When God called us out of our church, I was sure I knew what ministry He was calling me to pursue. And that was promoting the home church movement. That did not happen. I never had a "word" that it was my calling, just a feeling because that's all I was seeing and reading about. Those next 4 years after leaving 'the structured our church setting' to pursue the 'home church movement' became the 'desert' situation.

Ok, I could be mixing my metaphors, but fairly confident on the identity of Lamb's blood and holy fire.

Then roll with that.

Indeed, though it appears as a book in the vision and is no doubt the right metaphor for the job.

Read that verse in a better translation;

LUK 10:20 but, in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subjected to you, but rejoice rather that your names were written in the heavens.'

Not even a mention of 'the book of life' and not going 'to heaven' in this verse either.

EDIT: Plus, this verse was spoken before Jesus was ever crucified or salvation was even appropriated for anyone to get their names added to some imaginary book, of orthodoxy, saying who could go to heaven.

Serious business! You'll now be my source for answers to Revelation's imponderables moving forward.

No, I'll PM you when I get to the office.

I'd agree with that. The basic approach I take is that it is written in the apocalyptic genre but subverts that genre. Unfortunately most people don't get it and assume it's all about God smashing stuff up. But here the revelation is ultimately of how salvation of all creation is delivered. It's about reading it Christologically. Now who could argue with that hermeneutic?

You're right, Simon Magus was small beer compared to the institutional beast that's now churning out ready-made career-oriented blind guides.

"small beer"???? is that a typo? It does fit...in a funny sort of way for me, even if it is.

Shrewd Manager · Oct 2, 2019

Hillsage said:
No, I'm saying my last 4 years there were a 'spiritual wilderness' time for me. When God called us out of our church, I was sure I knew what ministry He was calling me to pursue. And that was promoting the home church movement. That did not happen. I never had a "word" that it was my calling, just a feeling because that's all I was seeing and reading about. Those next 4 years after leaving 'the structured our church setting' to pursue the 'home church movement' became the 'desert' situation.

Ah thanks. So what are the key differences between the character of the wilderness and the desert?

Hillsage said:
Not even a mention of 'the book of life' and not going 'to heaven' in this verse either.

EDIT: Plus, this verse was spoken before Jesus was ever crucified or salvation was even appropriated for anyone to get their names added to some imaginary book, of orthodoxy, saying who could go to heaven.

Revelation refers to the book of life, the tree of life, the water of life, the lake of fire and so on. None of those items are literal of course, but I'm willing to accept they are perfect metaphors, even if I may not fully understand them.

Hillsage said:
No, I'll PM you when I get to the office.

Thanks for that, looks excellent, for some reason I can't reply to your PM. I've just read a couple of entries, it's certainly better than the usual carnal rubbish. Will continue to look through.

Hillsage said:
"small beer"???? is that a typo? It does fit...in a funny sort of way for me, even if it is.

It's just a (vaguely archaic) English expression, conveying something like 'unimportant'. Seemed fitting.

The Nothing Link

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simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Senior Veteran

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Senior Veteran

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Senior Veteran

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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