Faith and Obedience

God's grace

Yup--I simply can't fathom how believers can add works of men to the Grace of God in the work of Christ to gain salvation. It boggles the mind.

charsan said:

What would you have me do with it? It does not say by faith alone at all.

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Reading it carefully would be nice. It clearly says that "...you have been saved..." "...through faith.." and "...not by works...". So, if salvation is "through faith" and "not by works" - and there is no other ingredient in the mix to be considered - then it is clear that faith alone is being proclaimed here.

Notice not faith alone, that idea was added and not there originally.

charsan said:

Notice not faith alone, that idea was added and not there originally.

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As my grandparents used to often tell me: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

kcmonseysr said:

Reading it carefully would be nice. It clearly says that "...you have been saved..." "...through faith.." and "...not by works...". So, if salvation is "through faith" and "not by works" - and there is no other ingredient in the mix to be considered - then it is clear that faith alone is being proclaimed here.

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Amen! The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

One does not need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE. *Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" -- barren of works (James 2:14)

charsan said:

yes but never ever by faith alone

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Faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and not in works (Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. (James 2:14-17) Faith in Christ alone for salvation is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

Dan, the Reformation was founded on 4 pillars of which you and others express here. Unfortunately only one is true... that is we are saved by grace alone. The other 3... faith, Christ (Holy Spirit) and the bible alone are not sound Christian doctrine.

St Paul himself tells us to hold fast to the traditions he passed on to them and clarified that they were oral and written... not scripture alone. St John said that all the books in the world could not contain what Jesus had done hinting at oral tradition... the means the Jews used to pass on the Word of God before it was written down. In fact Jesus told no one to write anything down yet we have the new testament because the Holy Spirit inspired some apostles to write what they had experienced. Thus the bible is not a Christian's only source to know how God saves us.

Nor is it the Holy Spirit alone (Christ alone) who saves us precisely because God (Jesus and the Holy Spirit) work through men... through Christ's apostles as well as lay persons, to differing degrees. Why even a donkey was used in the old testament! With this said it remains true that God (the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is the principle source of our salvation. By principle I mean the originator, or as scripture says the alpha. All of us help each other to be saved by drawing from the fountain of life (God). Jesus being God incarnate is therefore that same principle source.

As for faith it cannot be by itself because it is the conduit from which grace comes. When a small child is properly baptized he/she is immersed in not just water but grace. The child has done nothing as God works through the parents to enter he/she into the life of grace. That sanctifying grace comes from God through those involved in the process, to the child (prior to the age of reason). In fact the same is true for a mentally handicapped person who in this life can never make an act of faith (as required by a fideist who says faith must be alone, or with belief must be alone). As I've said in another post faith is primarily an assent of the mind to truth. As such faith is an intellectual virtue or if you will, a supernaturalizing of the mind to be able to accept and understand spiritual truth. Divine faith therefore cannot be alone because it requires an ability to reason without which it would be ineffective. The fideist by insisting faith must be by itself is making salvation a head game... merely subjective. Rather authentic faith is a means to understand what the Holy Spirit says and to acquire Grace that sanctifies. TCB

Tree of Life said:

I think we all agree that we need faith in order to be saved. Let's focus on obedience.

Is obedience a second condition for our salvation. In other words, do we need both faith and obedience in order to be saved?

Or is obedience the natural result and outworking of genuine faith? In other words, when "faith" is properly understood, is it simply redundant to tack on obedience as a condition for salvation?

To ask the same question in another way - are faith and obedience two different things or are they really two ways of looking at the same thing? Can true faith exist without obedience? Can obedience exist without true faith?

My contention is that we are saved by faith alone. But "faith", properly understood, is an active faith which works itself out in loving obedience.

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1. Given that OSAS is not a doctrine found in the Bible as we see explained here...
Yesterday at 5:39 PM #1
2. And given that only those who make the constant choice to "persevere" firm until the end "SHALL be " saved.

Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Matt 24:13 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
Rom 2:7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
Matt 24:22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

4. and given that it is indeed possible to be "severed from Christ ... fallen from grace" Gal 5:4
Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness revoked for the one who has been "forgiven all that debt"

Then it is certain that two things a true.

A. Obedience is only possible for the one that is forgiven, born-again, saved Rom 8:4-11
B. Failure to persevere on the part of the saved saint - will get them into hell.

Tree of Life said:

Paul says that the Jews went wrong because they sought to establish their own righteousness rather than accepting the righteousness which comes as a gift from God (Romans 10:3-4). Paul says that none will be justified by being a "good guy" (Romans 3:20) because everyone is judged as a sinner by God's law (Romans 3:10-11).

This justification comes to us by faith apart from works of the law (Romans 3:21-25).

I don't know how Paul could be more clear. James adds (not disagreeing with Paul) that true, saving faith always produces obedience even though we are not justified by our works. Paul is in perfect agreement, saying that we uphold the law by faith (Romans 3:31).

What is it about justification by faith alone that you think is unbiblical?

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But Romans 3:1 makes it clear that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is a part of the Old Covenant Law and not the New Covenant Law).

"what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Circumcision was of the Old Law and not the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

For when a person reads, Galatians 5:4 that says: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." They have to also read Galatians 5:2 (Which is the context) that says:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).

Paul also said, "But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:" (Galatians 2:3).

So Paul was not referring to all law in general.

Oldmantook said:

That's because he probably couldn't lift his finger since his hand was nailed to the cross. All kidding aside, the thief on the cross similar to death bed conversions simply do not have time in left in their lives to do works which manifest saving faith. The rest of us with time left do not have such an excuse.

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I believe the thief on the cross exhibited works of faith by his defending Jesus. He spoke up in defense for Jesus.

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 10:32).

Oldmantook said:

The believers in Matt 7:23 did in fact know the Lord. "In His name" they cast out demons, prophesied and performed miracles. Unbelievers do not have the authority to use Jesus' name as witnessed by the what happened to the sons of Sceva.
Moreover, Jesus himself gave the reason why he commands them to depart from him - because they "practice lawlessness." The practice of sin by believers results in the command to depart.

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Jesus says a good tree cannot produce evil fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. So no. They never really truly operated by God's power if they were not abiding in Christ. Salvation is a person, and it is not believing in a set of historical facts alone. Just having one's mind involved does not mean anything unless one's heart is involved. Faith is matter of the heart. If there is no heart in accepting Christ, there is no salvation. A person must be broken with a godly sorrow whereby they will then seek forgiveness with the Lord and make good on their promise to Him. The truth (Jesus) can only abide in a person who keeps his commandments (See: 1 John 2:3-4).

1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life. Did they have the Son? Did they have life?

Guojing said:

You obey by putting your faith in Christ finished works. That is the only Obedience required for salvation

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1 John 1:7 says that we need to walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light in relation to the blood of Jesus Christ cleansing us of all sin. Walking in the light = Loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11).

huiothesia said:

Yup--I simply can't fathom how believers can add works of men to the Grace of God in the work of Christ to gain salvation. It boggles the mind.

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Read again 1 John 1:7, Hebrews 5:9, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:30, Romans 8:13.

Bible Highlighter said:

But Romans 3:1 makes it clear that Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is a part of the Old Covenant Law and not the New Covenant Law).

"what profit is there of circumcision?" (Romans 3:1).

Circumcision was of the Old Law and not the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.

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Romans 3 -
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true

The question comes from the Romans 2 fact that Paul was giving salvation "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" then also dooming both to hell if they chose rebellion "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" where he even goes to so far as to say "the Name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you" and ends Romans 2 this way ...

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In saying that in chapter 2 - Paul appears to have wiped out any sense of "advantage" even among Christians that a Jew had vs a gentile. So in Chapter 3 he points out that the long history of the Jews with God including the giving of scripture through the Jews - vs the pagan history of gentiles... is an Advantage for physical Jews.

My friend--I could quote you scriptures all day that are contrary to the meaning you assign to these.
"I will never leave you or forsake you"
We are adopted.
To understand the work of the Cross and the nature of the Life of God In Christ that we have been given first and foremost--is required in order to begin to understand the rest of the words penned.

BobRyan said:

Romans 3 -
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What then? If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it? 4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true

The question comes from the Romans 2 fact that Paul was giving salvation "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" then also dooming both to hell if they chose rebellion "to the Jew first and also to the gentile" where he even goes to so far as to say "the Name of God is blasphemed among the gentiles because of you" and ends Romans 2 this way ...

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

In saying that in chapter 2 - Paul appears to have wiped out any sense of "advantage" even among Christians that a Jew had vs a gentile. So in Chapter 3 he points out that the long history of the Jews with God including the giving of scripture through the Jews - vs the pagan history of gentiles... is an Advantage for physical Jews.

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Paul is saying that circumcision is of value IF you practice the Law. Paul is not telling anyone to keep the Law. He is saying "IF." He knows nobody can now keep the Old Law because God is not going to abide in a person to help them to keep the whole of the Old Law. You cannot keep the whole of the Old Law anymore. It is impossible. Not just physically because a person needs God to abide in them to accomplish such a task, but because a person cannot offer animal sacrifices anymore because our perfect sacrifice has already come.

Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

huiothesia said:

My friend--I could quote you scriptures all day that are contrary to the meaning you assign to these.
"I will never leave you or forsake you"
We are adopted.
To understand the work of the Cross and the nature of the Life of God In Christ that we have been given first and foremost--is required in order to begin to understand the rest of the words penned.

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In Deuteronomy 31 we read God say:

"Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee." (Deuteronomy 31:6).

Yet, in the same chapter, God also said,

16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?" (Deuteronomy 31:16-17).

huiothesia said:

My friend--I could quote you scriptures all day that are contrary to the meaning you assign to these.
"I will never leave you or forsake you"
We are adopted.
To understand the work of the Cross and the nature of the Life of God In Christ that we have been given first and foremost--is required in order to begin to understand the rest of the words penned.

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Actually, in order to convince me and others that you are right, you need to explain 1 John 1:7, Hebrews 5:9, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 25:30, Romans 8:13.

You have made my point and the same can be repeated over and over again when reading scripture.
There are many apparent contradictions---one must come to understand first Life and the Life Giver. Not the penned words, but the Lord behind them. Come to 'know' Him and He will reveal Himself to you.
To truly walk with Him and be taught by Him, is not near the same thing as studying.