Is Confession of Sin Necessary for Salvation?

Anguspure · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Confession of sin is just another way of saying "repent."
Jesus said to people to repent or perish (Luke 13:3).

Note: In my next post, I will post to you how "repentance" means "seeking forgiveness with the Lord."

To repent is to "turn away from". We agree with our Father that what we have done is offensive and by our will turn away from doing that thing again.
Confession is to outwardly express what we have done that is offensive.
So yes, like repentance we agree with Him that what we do is wrong but it does not necessarily entail that we do not wish to do it again.

renniks · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I don't believe that Christians are love robots. Believers have to endure to the end, endure temptation, be faithful unto death, overcome, and keep themselves in the love of God in order to be saved.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So we are not changed to a point whereby we will automatically do good. We have to live out this life faithfully for God (Which is by our own choice). For this is the reason why we are living this life now. It is a test. This life is for us to prove to God our faithfulness to Him. We are not forced to be faithful to Him. We have to choose this day (every day) in who we will serve.

I agree. However, we are never without sin. Overcoming is found in remaining in relationship with Christ, not in our strength.

CharismaticLady · Sep 2, 2019

Danthemailman said:
To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) and not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Like a serial killer. Murdering once is not willful?

GingerBeer · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
others cannot see it (because of what they have been taught by a Pastor or what they wanted to hear because it is comforting to them).

There may be other reasons. Reasons that your reply does not mention.

CharismaticLady · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe confession of sin or seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus can play a part in one's entrance to be saved when accepting the gospel and Christ. But confession of sin can be a continual thing at different points in a believer's life. For king David had confessed of his sins and he surely was a man of God before and after his confession of sin in Psalms 51. Paul was desiring the Corinthians to repent, and they did so with a godly sorrow (See: 2 Corinthians 7:10). In the Parable of the Prodigal Son: We learn that when the prodigal son came back home, and sought forgiveness with his father, he was said by his father to "dead" and now he is "alive again." The father was speaking in spiritual terms. The son was "spiritually dead" when he was living a prodigal sinful life, and he became "spiritually alive again" when he sought forgiveness of his sins with his father. Jesus is our Everlasting Father because we will one day be resurrected sons after his likeness.

Only all past sins are forgiven. Future sin is not forgiven a believer. Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery that she was not condemned by He also told her to "sin no more." (John 8:11). Jesus also told a man that he healed to "sin no more, unless a worse thing were to come upon him." Also, 1 John 2:1 says we are to "sin not" but if we do happen to sin, we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:9 is context or view of Jesus being our advocate. We are told in Scripture to come before the throne of grace in time of need. What does that even mean if it is not confession to the Lord Jesus Christ? Is not Jesus our Heavenly high priest who intercedes for us? Does not the Lord's prayer include us seeking forgiveness of our debts (sins)?

Actually, many in the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) camp believe this way. But it is not biblical. Yes, one can be sanctified by a specific event like the renewal of one's heart, but it does not stop there.

Sanctify:

John 17:17
"Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." (John 15:3).

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...". (1 Peter 1:22).

"Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word."
(Psalms 119:9)

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

“But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.” (1 John 2:5).

Sanctify & Sanctified:

John 17:19
"And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth."

1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2).

“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:6).

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps." (1 Peter 2:21).

Sanctification:

1 Thessalonians 4:3
"For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:"

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

"For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness." (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

"So all people who have this confidence in Christ keep themselves pure, as Christ is pure." (1 John 3:3 GW).

"Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also." Matthew 23:26).

"A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." (Luke 6:45).

"Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God." (Matthew 5:8).

Sanctification & Sanctified:

1 Thessalonians 4:4
"That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;"

2 Timothy 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

7 "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body." (2 Corinthians 4:7-10).

16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17).

Where does the Bible say that?

Where does the Bible say that?

I don't see how this passage supports what you just said. It is talking about how we need to forgive, or we will not be forgiven by the Father.

14 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15).

How can we be saved if we are not forgiven by the Father?
So this is talking in relation to salvation here.
We need to forgive others if we hope to be forgiven or saved by God.
What is interesting is that this was said after the Lord's prayer.
Meaning: A believer is cautioned to forgive others as a part of their right standing forgiveness with God. Salvation is conditional. While we are given a new heart with new desires. We are not love robots.

Believers have to endure to the end, endure temptation, be faithful unto death, overcome, and keep themselves in the love of God in order to be saved.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” (Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...” (Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." (Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

So we are not changed to a point whereby we will automatically do good. We have to live out this life faithfully for God (Which is by our own choice). For this is the reason why we are living this life now. It is a test. This life is for us to prove to God our faithfulness to Him. We are not forced to be faithful to Him. We have to choose this day (every day) in who we will serve.

I copied and pasted into a personal document to read later. Hope I can give you a "like."

CharismaticLady · Sep 2, 2019

Danthemailman said:
1 John 1:8 is in the present tense and although those who are born of God do not practice sin (1 John 3:9) it does not mean that those who are born of God never sin at all (1 John 2:1). Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

Those who teach sinlessness, know what 1 John 3:9 means. And it has nothing to do with "practicing" sin. It has to do with the inability to commit willful sins of lawlessness, as opposed to unintentional trespasses.

GraceBro · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I do not believe this kind of belief is in line with what Scripture says.

For it is written:

9 "And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 18:9-14).

As we can see in the above parable by Jesus, He wanted to show that the man who sought forgiveness with the Lord was justified (declared righteous). The problem is that the Pharisee was not doing what the Tax Collector did. The point of the parable was to show how it is necessary to seek forgiveness with the Lord as a part of being saved. If the Pharisee refused to seek forgiveness with the Lord, he would end up despising others and creating his own version of self righteousness without allowing the Lord to do the good through His life (By his surrender to the Lord).

I do not believe that a belief in a set of facts alone saves anyone. A belief in Christ has to hit a person's heart. There must be a godly sorrow of repentance, and not a worldly sorrow (See 2 Corinthians 7:10). A faith that does not bring a person to their knees or break them to the core of their heart is not a true faith - IMO. True faith leaves a mark of good works (See: James 2:18). But it is even more than just doing good works. One has to live holy. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). For those believers who did good works in Christ's name were told to depart from Jesus because they also worked iniquity or sin, too (See: Matthew 7:23).

Well, I do believe it is in line with scripture. So, we will have to agree to disagree. God Bless.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2019

Danthemailman said:
1 John 1:8 is in the present tense and although those who are born of God do not practice sin (1 John 3:9)

As for 1 John 3:9:

Not all Bibles say the same thing. Some have added some pretty bad stuff in them. Some have even added the devil's name where they do not belong. I believe the KJV circa. 1900 Cambridge Edition is the perfect Word of God for our day, and that Modern Translations (While they can be helpful to update the 1600's English) are not always accurate. I believe the Modern translations that say: "makes a practice of sinning," in 1 John 3:9 is erroneous and false. The word "practice" is a false addition to Scripture. How so? Well, John talks about how if we hate our brother, we are like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. The Bible does not teach how we need to be a practicing murderer in order to be a murderer.

Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer. The same is true with adultery. Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Even the sin of lying is enough to keep a person out of God's kingdom.

For Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some.

As for 1 John 1:8:

Yes, it is talking in the present tense. But it is talking in context to 1 John 1:10. We both agree on 1 John 1:10. We both agree that it is wrong to say that a person has never sinned ever in the past tense. This would mean that a person is denying the existence of sin in the past tense. A person can also do this in the present tense when they sin in the present tense, as well. This was the false gnostic belief that John was warning the brethren about.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you."
(1 John 2:26).

Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and it is not real. So when they sin in the present tense, they do not think they are sinning when they do sin. In fact, John tells us the proper way to deal with sin by saying to "confess of sin so as to be forgiven of it" (1 John 1:9), and he tell us to "sin not." (1 John 2:1). In addition, 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and yet they are breaking His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them.

Most Eternal Security Proponents believe 1 John 1:8 is declaring that we will always fall into some kind of sin and that we cannot help but to sin at some point. How they define when they sin is the question. How they define the practice of sin is also a curiosity. Some have told me they sin several times a day and they are saved. Is that not practicing sin?

The problem with the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is that it is a condemnation of their own belief. It is warning against the OSAS belief itself and they don't even realize it. How so? Well, 1 John 1:8 is a warning on the denial of sin's existence vs. confessing sin (1 John 1:9) and forsaking it (1 John 1:7) (1 John 2:1) (Proverbs 28:13). For if we willfully sin after receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26). OSAS proponents, Sin and Still Be Saved Type Believers, or Belief Alone Proponents believe that Jesus paid for all their future sin. Thus, when they sin they believe it is already forgiven. So in one sense, they are saying they have no sin when they do sin. This is what 1 John 1:8 is warning us against. The proper method for dealing with sin is to confess of sin to be forgiven of sin, and to walk in the light so the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sin.

You said:
it does not mean that those who are born of God never sin at all (1 John 2:1).

I believe this view is not looking at the whole of Scripture here.
Other verses tell us that a believer can overcome grievous sin.
Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How do these verses work in a belief that says a believer will always sin?

In essence, this view is sort of like pointing to those few incriminating pages within the diary of a drunk as proof that a drunk cannot overcome his sin of drunkenness when in reality he actually did overcome such a sin with the help of a drug program and he wrote of this. His momentary times of stumbling were not indicative of his final victory.

You said:
Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

Not all sin is the same. There is a sin that does not lead to death (i.e. spiritual death) (See 1 John 5:17).

You said:
In regards to 1 John 1:7, in 1 John 1:6, we read - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Again, this erroneous addition of adding the word "practice" to God's Word is an attempt at attacking what God's Word really says. The KJV does not say such a thing. But again, even if you didn't follow the KJV, I have already proven that it takes only one sin to be a murderer, and one sin to be an adulterer according to the Bible, and it does not take lots of murders to be considered a murderer and it does not take lots of adulterous acts to be an adulterer.

You said:
Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

This is talking about how Paul was turning the Gentiles to the light of the gospel and Jesus Christ. Not sure how this proves that a believer can abide in unconfessed grievous sin and still be saved while doing so. Jude 1:4 warns against turning God's grace into a license for immorality.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. "IF" confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

Paul is saying that they are light while in the Lord. Remember Jesus said that the branch that does not abide in Him and bear fruit is cut off and it will be burned (John 15:5-6). The same line of thinking is expressed in Matthew 13:41-42.

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

You said:
In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that walks in darkness, hates his brother is connected to children of the devil.

You are not teaching me anything new here. Actually, this truth is a problem for your belief. My case on the 1st epistle of John has always been:

Walking in the light (1 John 1:7) = Loving your brother (1 John 2:9-11).
Walking in the light is the requirement for having the blood of Jesus cleansing one of all sin (1 John 1:7). So if one is not loving their brother, they are not being cleansed of all sin by the blood of Jesus. 1 John 3:15 confirms this truth. If a believer hates their brother, no eternal life abides in them according to 1 John 3:15. This supports the words of Jesus in Luke 10:25-28 that loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life.

You said:
Believers do not always have to fall into sin and do not practice sin, yet that does not mean that believers will never sin at all. If believers were sinless, 100% of the time, then "if anyone sins" would be superfluous. My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.. (so believers have the option of may not sin) And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Again, the word "may" is an addition that was made by the erroneous Modern Translations. Hundreds of years when men had the KJV, they were simply unaware of this addition. The problem with your belief here is that it makes room to justify sin on some level. But wouldn't God have to agree with this kind of plan of salvation? If so, that would mean God would have to agree with sin in order to make such a plan of salvation work. But that is not possible because God is holy. We are told that we have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). Justifying a little bit of sin was never the mind of Christ. So your belief is non-existent in light of 1 Corinthians 2:16.

You said:
There is no contradiction between 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 2:4 based on my belief, (but there would be a contradiction based on the belief of those who teach sinless perfection). 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, obvserve, watch over) His commandments. (not talking about sinless perfection) 4 The one who says, I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

God is going to hold us accountable to the Word of God in our own language. We do not grow up in bible times to truly know what biblical Greek says with 100% certainty. We can only trust that God preserved His Word today as it says in our own language. For if here is no nailed down perfect Word of God that makes us without excuse (that does not include a Lexicon) then that means we are not really accountable to God's Word. The Bible says that God has chosen the poor of this world. If this is so, then it would not be the rich scholar who has tons of Lexicons at his disposal. The one who is rich in faith is the poor man who has faith in what God's Word plainly says. In fact, Jesus even warned us of the scribes. The scribes are those who TRAN-scribed the law or the Scriptures. They are the scholars in our recent years. So forgive me if I don't trust your Greek interpretation. I just read and believe the Bible plainly in the English.

Oldmantook · Sep 2, 2019

Danthemailman said:
Although every single soul (person) dies physically, there are those who may die "prematurely" (sooner than they would have) due to certain sins. In 1 Corinthians 11:29, we read - For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly. 30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves rightly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are disciplined by the Lord so that we will not be condemned along with the world. Paul knows that the judgment of God can take on the form of physical illness and even physical death. The word "sleep" when referring to death, refers to the physical death of believers, not spiritual death (John 11:11-12; Acts 7:60; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4).

False dichotomy. While it is indeed true that some may die prematurely one cannot logically assume that all who are sinning, as a result die prematurely. That is like saying since some chickens lay brown eggs, all chickens lay brown egg which of course is not true. Death of the soul in James 5 refers to spiritual death; not physical death.

Danthemailman said:
1 John 5:16, we read - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; (AMP - deliberately and knowingly practice committing sin), but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. *1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin..

Indeed; no one born of God practices sin. Those who practice sin are not born of God. An unsaved person is not able to "keep himself" from sinning because he is unregenerate. Thus this passage is directed to believers only. Believers who practice sinning demonstrate that they are unrepentant and therefore unforgiven. No repentance = no forgiveness = no salvation.

Danthemailman said:
Since the word soul (Greek - psyche) is rendered as "life" and not spirit (Matthew 26:38; Revelation 16:3; 1 Peter 3:20) the clause may be taken as a warning that backsliding may end up in physical death, as I already explained in post #26.

The soul is the person rather than just a part of the person. Man does not have a soul; man is a soul. The colloquial expression "that poor soul" refers to the whole person. Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Eze 18:4 "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
Like I wrote earlier, Paul warned the brethren that IF they are living according to the flesh, they will die. Does that mean physical death? That would be nonsense as everyone physically dies whether or not they live according to the flesh. Thus the IF clause in Rom 8:13 can only refer to spiritual death.

Danthemailman said:
It's your biased opinion that that James is talking about the spiritual death of a genuine born again Christian. It's the unrighteous who practice sin and suffer spiritual death (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21) and not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Let no one deceive you. If the righteous, little children practice sin, they are no longer born of God. See 1 Jn 3:7-8

Danthemailman said:
Again, your biased opinion, yet someone "among you," who has been considered one of the "brethren" and has been exposed to the truth may be in view here. So this wanderer is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

And you consider yourself free from any and all biases? I doubt it as we all have our biases. I already pointed out to you that "among" need not be in the text and is not in the text in some translations.

Danthemailman said:
The NASB (along with the AMP, AMPC, ESV, NRSV, WEB, YLT etc..) translations read "among" and in 1 John 2:19, these people who went out "from" us/genuine believers (were certainly among genuine believers) but were not "of" them, so my comparison is certainly not moot.

I already pointed out to you that "of us" is in the text of some translations so again, your point is moot. Moreover, don't you read the whole chapter? If you bothered to do so, you will find that "among you" also occurs in Js 5:13;14. These verses in their context clearly refer to genuine believers which quashes your "unbeliever" claim.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2019

renniks said:
I agree. However, we are never without sin. Overcoming is found in remaining in relationship with Christ, not in our strength.

Then why does James say that enduring temptation leads to the receiving of the crown of life?

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

Blade · Sep 2, 2019

You picked #2 but.. in the verses you quoted where is "Necessary for Salvation" in them? Or any verse?

Have kids? What must they do to always be part of that family? I never have to repent to be saved. Sin in this world has a price. That price is death in this world. And then that sin opens a door that demons can use against us.. to gain access to us. As Christ said .. go and sin no more least a worse thing come on you.

So my thoughts are.. well were family.. I never have a thought of Him kicking me out. Nor does He have that thought with me. Hes always watching over me.. helping me. Showing me things areas in my life that if He is not in it.. the enemy will come and something will be put between me and Him that can stop Him from helping. It hurts Him so much to see this happening around me.

So.. when I hurt Him I always want to say sorry.. and to never do it again. Some things in this world seem to take time to change.. see I have faith.. that He is faithful to keep His word. That is what the Father sees. What Christ did already.. GOD is faithful to what Christ already did.

I work out my own salvation. Man has no hand or say in that. See Christ started something in me when He found me.. when He drew me to the Father. And PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS! That He is always working in me.. for what He started He will finish. I am in this flesh.. no longer I that sin but sin that is in me.. So I will always confess my sins.. praise GOD He is faithful to forgive and cleans me..

renniks · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Then why does James say that enduring temptation leads to the receiving of the crown of life?

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).

Are you trying to say that one has to be sinless to endure until the end? Most translations say that those who endure trials receive the crown of life, but even if you read it "temptations", we endure, does this mean we endure them perfectly and never sin? Don't think so.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-9

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2019

renniks said:
Are you trying to say that one has to be sinless to endure until the end? Most translations say that those who endure trials receive the crown of life, but even if you read it "temptations", we endure, does this mean we endure them perfectly and never sin? Don't think so.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-9

Not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:16).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).

Side Note:

Please understand that it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2019

renniks said:
Are you trying to say that one has to be sinless to endure until the end? Most translations say that those who endure trials receive the crown of life, but even if you read it "temptations", we endure, does this mean we endure them perfectly and never sin? Don't think so.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-9

As for 1 John 1:8:

What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

His student · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible’s teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD:

As they like to say at Geico, "Everyone knows that."

Bible Highlighter said:
After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

Like I said, "Everyone knows that."

I see that I was wrong in giving you the benefit of the doubt as to exactly what you meant by "salvation" in the survey question and what your agenda was.

As the thread has progressed, I see that it is just another backhanded way of approaching the doctrine of anti eternal security and teaching works salvation.

It's been done many times and no doubt it will be done again and again. You can bet that BcSenior for instance will be starting another thread from just a slightly different angle on this same subject as he has a dozen or more times before.

Probably I'll join in the debate again in the future. But today I'm just not up to it and I'll leave you to your agenda.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2019

Blade said:
You picked #2 but.. in the verses you quoted where is "Necessary for Salvation" in them? Or any verse?

Jesus tells men that unless they repent, they will all likewise perish according to Luke 13:3. I made a biblical case for what repentance means in post #100 within this thread (Which taken in light of Luke 13:3, it will help to explain my vote in the pole).

You said:
Have kids? What must they do to always be part of that family?

Just being a child does not mean anything to God.

The children of the kingdom are said to be cast into outer darkness.

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:12).

In the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32): When the prodigal son came home from his riotous life of sin and he sought forgiveness with his father, his father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again." The son was said to be "lost" and now he is "found." Generally when we talk about the "lost" in the Bible, they are the unsaved or spiritually lost. In other words, the parable is utilizing spiritual terms. The son was spiritually dead when he was living a life of sin, and when he came back home to the father and sought forgiveness with him, he became alive again spiritually. This truth is confirmed by James 5:19-20.

You can even be in the Kingdom and be cast out because of sin or iniquity.
For the Son of Man (Jesus) will one day send forth his angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom all who offend (sin) and those who do iniquity (intense sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

Also, I doubt very much that if a father's son turned out to be Hitler, and this son desired to kill their own father and his own family that he would be considered as a son by his father and that he would be willing to welcome home to fellowship with his family over a meal. Why would the father do that if the son was seeking to hurt him and his other loved family members. Such a son would show that he is no longer a beloved son of the family because such a son would destroy the family's existence. You cannot have a family if they are dead and gone.

There are serious sins to God and they break fellowship with God because He is a holy, just, and good God. We cannot condone sin and think we can be saved. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:16 says that we have the mind of Christ. You are saying that believers today can sin and still be saved on some level. That this is okay for a believer to think this way. But Jesus never had this kind of thinking. How could He? Jesus is God. He could never condone sin. So if we are to truly have the mind of Christ, we cannot justify sin on some level.

I never have to repent to be saved.

Yet, Jesus says,

"I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."
(Luke 13:3) (NKJV).

Sin in this world has a price. That price is death in this world. And then that sin opens a door that demons can use against us.. to gain access to us.

No true Christian who abides in Christ can also abide in a dark spirit. For what fellowship does light have with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14).

You said:
As Christ said .. go and sin no more least a worse thing come on you.

This is proof that future sin is not forgiven a person. If future sin is forgiven for a believer, then Jesus would never say that a worse thing will come upon a man for sinning again. If he is truly forgiven, the debt is paid and no bad thing should happen to him as a result of his sin. But the Bible does not teach future sin is forgiven for a believer.

You said:
So my thoughts are.. well were family.. I never have a thought of Him kicking me out.

There is a way that seems right unto a man.
The only thing we can trust is God's Word and not what we think.

You said:
Nor does He have that thought with me. Hes always watching over me.. helping me. Showing me things areas in my life that if He is not in it.. the enemy will come and something will be put between me and Him that can stop Him from helping. It hurts Him so much to see this happening around me.

So.. when I hurt Him I always want to say sorry.. and to never do it again. Some things in this world seem to take time to change.. see I have faith.. that He is faithful to keep His word. That is what the Father sees. What Christ did already.. GOD is faithful to what Christ already did.

Sorry, this is not how things work. Jesus told those believers who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they also worked iniquity or sin (Matthew 7:23). 1 John 2:3-4 gives us the clue as to why that is. They did not know the Lord because they did not keep His commandments. They did good works or obeyed some of them, but they did not truly keep them. They were pretending. Putting on a show that they were living holy for God, when they were not.

I work out my own salvation. Man has no hand or say in that.

You are quoting Philippians 2:12 that says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if this verse is not talking about fear? In the Eternal Security belief or the Belief Alone-ism type doctrine, there is no real fear of God. One can simply have their cake and eat it, too. There is no real need to work out one's salvation with fear and trembling because they got their golden ticket to Heaven. They can sit back and eat Cheetos on the sofa their whole life and not worry about anything but themselves. They don't have to love God or love their neighbor. They got their ticket to Heaven. They are good. No more need to think about God. They are saved. So now they can just go back to their old life of sin.

You said:
See Christ started something in me when He found me.. when He drew me to the Father. And PRAISE GOD GLORY TO JESUS! That He is always working in me.. for what He started He will finish. I am in this flesh.. no longer I that sin but sin that is in me.. So I will always confess my sins.. praise GOD He is faithful to forgive and cleans me.

The idea that a person sins in the flesh, and yet we do not sin in the spirit because Jesus paid for our sins is erroneous. We have to walk in the light as He is in the light for the blood of Jesus to cleanse us from all sin (1 John 1:7). We have to confess sin in order to be forgiven of sin, and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (See 1 John 1:9).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible’s teaches that serious sin is separation from GOD:

His student said:
As they like to say at Geico, "Everyone knows that."

Not true. Most here argue that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Some have told me that they can sin several times of day and because they do not intend to sin, it is okay with God and that they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. Others say that one has to generally live a holy life, but dying in one or two unconfessed grievous sins will not separate them from God. So they are teaching that sin is not really separation from God.

Bible Hightlighter said:
After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

You said:
Like I said, "Everyone knows that."

I don't think most agree with my list here because I am saying that Sanctification or holy living by the Spirit plays a part in the salvation process. Even you disagree with me by saying that salvation does not include works. That is what my list above here proposes. For the unprofitable servant was cast into our darkness. Faith without works is dead.

I see that I was wrong in giving you the benefit of the doubt as to exactly what you meant by "salvation" in the survey question and what your agenda was.

The only agenda I am for is God's agenda according to His Word.

You said:
As the thread has progressed, I see that it is just another backhanded way of approaching the doctrine of anti eternal security and teaching works salvation.

Any way we can get the light of the truth of God's Word out there to help people to live for the Lord the better. The Bible condemns turning God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4), and that one does need to be fruitful otherwise they will be a cut off branch and thrown into the fire to be burned (John 15:5-6).

It's been done many times and no doubt it will be done again and again. You can bet that BcSenior for instance will be starting another thread from just a slightly different angle on this same subject as he has a dozen or more times before.

I don't exactly agree with him on everything. But we do just so happen to agree on the Bible's teaching on Conditional Salvation.

You said:
Probably I'll join in the debate again in the future. But today I'm just not up to it and I'll leave you to your agenda.

I believe there is no real defense a person can make for Eternal Security. This is the defeat that I believe that Eternal Security proponents feel when they try to argue this topic. There is no real argument that they can make because Scripture refutes them at every turn. They can quote an Eternal Security verse and 9 times out of 10, all they have to do is read the surrounding verses to find a Conditional Salvation verse. Of course, these verses must be twisted or ignored in some way, though. They cannot be read plainly like the Eternal Security verses.

renniks · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

I certainly am. I am never perfect, not for one second of one day. It must be very stressful to live every moment wondering if you have committed a sin into death in your mind. Shoot, I sin in my sleep. Been there, done that, discovered grace, and there's no going back to worry about God being out to disown me. I am his child, he is for me, not against me. The only sin I have to fear is unbelief.

His student · Sep 2, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
Most here argue that they can sin and still be saved on some level. Some have told me that they can sin several times of day and because they do not intend to sin, it is okay with God and that they are saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. Others say that one has to generally live a holy life, but dying in one or two unconfessed grievous sins will not separate them from God. So they are teaching that sin is not really separation from God.

They are spot on - except where you say that proponents of eternal security teach that "it is okay with God" if we sin. No one I know of from either camp believes and teaches that.

Bible Highlighter said:
I don't think most agree with my list here because I am saying that Sanctification or holy living by the Spirit plays a part in the salvation process.

Sanctification and holy living is part of the salvation process. I know of no one who teaches otherwise. The differance between you and I however is that you have a rather shallow view of salvation - seeing it as a simple case of spending eternity in Heaven vs. in Hell.

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible condemns turning God's grace into a license for immorality

So does every proponent of eternal security I have met or read in my 74 years.

There simply are no antinomians in the eternal security camp. If there are, they've kept a pretty low profile for the last 74 years.

Bible Highlighter said:
I don't exactly agree with him on everything. But we do just so happen to agree on the Bible's teaching on Conditional Salvation.

You are both wrong. Those who have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ have passed from death to life, are seated with Him in the heavenlies and will never again come into condemnation. They have been chosen by the Father before the foundation of the world and drawn to and given to the Son in time.

He Who started the good work in them will complete it. They have His Word on it.

You may not phrase it this way. But it is obvious to all that you believe that you are the author and finisher of your faith.

So be it. I only hope and pray that the Lord knows you based on that rendition of saving faith and that I will see you in Heaven.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 2, 2019

His student said:
They are spot on - except where you say that proponents of eternal security teach that "it is okay with God" if we sin. No one I know of from either camp believes and teaches that.

When a person teaches that their sin does not separate them from God and the Lord just accepts them into His Kingdom anyways, it is teaching that their sin is okay on some level with the Lord because their sin not the big of an issue so as to be properly punished. Nobody pays a fine for any future crimes that you are setting out to commit. That would be a license for immorality. That would be the equivalent of saying one's future sin is forgiven. This would be giving a person a safety net to sin or do evil on some level and be in God's good graces still.

You said:
Sanctification and holy living is part of the salvation process. I know of no one who teaches otherwise.

This is not my first rodeo in discussing Eternal Security, Belief Alone-ism, and or the Sin and Still Be Saved Type Belief. I have been discussing the topic of Eternal Security for about 8 years now. It is something I have discussed involving Scripture many times in several different Christian forums.

I have discovered that there are three major types of Eternal Security, or OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). I classify them as follows:

OSAS Type #1:
Classic OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) which says you can practice unrepentant sin that leads unto death (Such as lying, murder, hate, fornication, etc.) and yet you can somehow still be saved. I have talked with individuals like this before. One guy admitted to me in person that he could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and still be saved while doing so. Others have admitted this to me online, as well.

OSAS Type #2:
Mid Range OSAS says that you cannot practice sin otherwise you do not know God. However, abiding in an occasional or small unrepentant sin and then dying in that sin will not necessarily send you to Hell. This is the most popular flavor of OSAS. They think a Christian is changed to live holy but the definition of holy living is not the one described in the Bible.

OSAS Type #3:
OSAS Lite teaches that you if you practice or continually abide in unrepentant sin then you were never saved to begin with. Meaning that a true believer is characterized by them living righteously. So falling away from the faith would be impossible (Despite the many verses that talk about such a thing). I have not encountered many who believe this way.

There are those who deny Eternal Security, and yet they think they can sin and still be saved on some level. These are generally "Free Will Baptists." They believe you can fall away not by sin, but by denying Jesus.

It all comes down to the problem of justifying grievous or serious sin (Which is not having the mind of Christ - 1 Corinthians 2:16).

You said:
The differance between you and I however is that you have a rather shallow view of salvation - seeing it as a simple case of spending eternity in Heaven vs. in Hell.

There are three major processes in salvation.

Justification: This is accepting Jesus as one's Savior, and believing in His death, and resurrection, and seeking forgiveness with Him with a godly sorrow. This process continues in the form of trusting Jesus as your Savior and in seeking forgiveness with Him if one happens to stumble on rare occasion into sin.

Sanctification: This is living holy by the power of the Holy Spirit, and or the other persons of the Trinity. The Lord does the good work through the believer to obey those commands given to us in New Testament. Ceremonial laws like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, etc. are a part of the Old Covenant and they are not binding for the believer today. We are under a New Covenant, with New Commands. Jesus agreed with the lawyer on the truth that we must love God and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17-19). This would be the NT commands.

Glorification: This is where God takes the believer home so that they can be with Him in His kingdom.

Most Eternal Security proponents I have talked with over the many years will say that Sanctification (holy living by the Spirit) is not a salvation issue. They believe they are saved solely by having a belief alone on Jesus.

As for hell being eternal:

Yeah, I don't believe in Eternal Conscious Torment. That is a fable and an attack upon the good character of our God and His fair justice. I believe the Bible teaches Dualistic Conditional Immortality.

You can learn more about that in this CF thread here.

You said:
So does every proponent of eternal security I have met or read in my 74 years.

Sure, they may condemn Hardcore Eternal Security. But not Mid Range OSAS. Test question. How many times do you think a believer sins a day or per week on average? If they do sin, what types of sins do you think they generally commit and are they still saved if they commit them? Do you think a Christian can look upon a woman in lust and still be saved if he does not confess of such a sin? Can a Christian lie and not confess of such a sin and still be saved while doing so?

You said:
There simply are no antinomians in the eternal security camp. If there are, they've kept a pretty low profile for the last 74 years.

You mean like George Sodini?
He was a hardcore Eternal Security proponent who wrote in his own suicide letter that he could kill a bunch of people, and take his own life and yet still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus.
Even after his murders and his death, a deacon of his church said he was still saved despite what he did.

You can read up more about him here:
George Sodini.

I would also encourage you to check out this thread here, as well.

Prove your case biblically that believers can willfully sin and still be saved while doing so.

It will help you to see that there are Christians who are on the offensive against me on the idea that a Christian can willfully sin and still be saved.

You said:
Those who have truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ have passed from death to life,

Yet, the Bible also says, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." (1 John 3:14).

1 John 3:15 says, if we hate our brother we are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Paul defines loving your neighbor as keeping the Moral Law (Romans 13:8-10). He says if you love your neighbor, you will not steal, murder, commit adultery, etc.

Jesus says if we look upon a woman in lust, our whole body can be cast into hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

So the condition of passing from death unto life is loving your brother. If you have truly attained that, then you have passed from death unto life. But the point I want to make here is that the passing of death unto life is conditional and not unconditional because loving one's brother is needed for it to be true.

You said:
are seated with Him in the heavenlies

Verses like Ephesians 2:6 in being seated with Him in Heavenly places must be balanced by reading other verses in Scripture that gives us warnings about how sin can destroy us. For example: The Bible says, if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).

You said:
and will never again come into condemnation.

This statement is not found in the New Testament.
The closest to it is Romans 8:1 and the full uncut version of this verse actually refutes Eternal Security.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

Romans 8:13 says,

"For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13) (NKJV).

So it's conditional. Paul tells the believers in Rome that they can live one way and they will die spiritually, and if they live another way by putting away sin out of their lives by the Spirit, they will live spiritually.

They have been chosen by the Father before the foundation of the world and drawn to and given to the Son in time.

You said:
He Who started the good work in them will complete it. They have His Word on it.

This is not at the compromise of our own free will to endure, overcome, keep ourselves in the love of God, etc.

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life,...” (James 1:12).

“...He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
(Matthew 24:13).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

“To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,...”
(Revelation 2:7).

"...He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."
(Revelation 2:11).

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,...” (Revelation 3:5).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

You said:
You may not phrase it this way. But it is obvious to all that you believe that you are the author and finisher of your faith.

Actually that is not true. I believe in Synergism. I believe that a believer cooperates with the good work that the Lord wants to do through them.

Is Confession of Sin Necessary for Salvation?

Is confession of sin necessary for salvation?

Yes, but only for initial salvation and acceptance of Christ. It is not required a second time.

Yes, 1 John 2:1, and 1 John 1:9 says we need to continue to confess sin to be cleansed of sin.

No, confession would be considered a work and is not necessary. Only belief is required.

No, but confession of sin will naturally take place as a result of having been saved.

I don't know.

Other (Please explain).

Kaitiaki Peacemakers NZ

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Eternally Forgiven, Alive, and Secure.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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