"the kind of church that Jesus came to create"

What is the real Church like?

This sermon...probably won't fit any pigeonhole.

Just was listening to this sermon from a preacher I had not heard before.

You may be encouraged or get interested in just the first few minutes -- but it's only getting started, and won't all be stuff you can predict.

But very soon, even in the first 5, 7 minutes, you will likely be learning some wonderful unexpected, and hear such encouraging things, and powerful.

The Kingdom of God is a Party

bling said:

The unregistered churches in China, I think would be like the church Christ was wanting to see.

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ah, you're going to like what's near the end of this sermon above, if you hear that part.

ChristianForCats said:

Jesus certainly would create a church where people worship like Pentecostals (singing, dancing, chanting, yelling, praying aloud, and speaking in tongues spontaneously) and baptism and Communion are only for beilevers. However, Jesus would not create a church where hairstyles and dress codes matter or want the Communion to be with grape juice, so Pentecostal churches are not a perfect match. And He would create a universal church, not autonomous churches where people disagree on leadership and doctrines.

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I agree.

I believe this universal Church has always been since the beginning, that our Lord's prayer in John chapter 17 was answered, and is answered, and has been all along therefore.

That means in particular that the outward label on a church isn't the key thing. Instead the true, real Body of Christ, the Church, is all who truly believe in Him, Christ risen. A very useful summary of this what faith is in the Apostle's Creed.

"I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of the saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting."

Apostles' Creed

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(Here to me 'catholic' means universal, as it did originally. And specifically to me that we accept and embrace all fellow believers -- that we recognize all of His are in our Church with us in the ultimate or real sense.
the 'communion of saints' just means to me that when a believer passes on, they are still part of the Body of Christ, with us, in communion together with us)

ChristianForCats said:

If you believe "universal church" means the Catholic church, you totally disagree with me on every count.

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It's not possible to misread it that way is it? Did you not read it through? I feel if you just read it, it cannot seem that way, but maybe somehow it could be taken that way? That's actually almost the opposite of what I was saying.

ChristianForCats said:

Let's try this again. I did read your entire post, but parts of it implied you believe only Catholic churches are what Jesus would want as a universal church.

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I'm happy to admit I didn't write clearly enough. When I write "catholic" with a small c, as I wrote above, I didn't explain extensively or clearly enough, just assumed people would get what I meant: catholic with a small c does not mean the Catholic church, but instead 'catholic' means 'universal' -- all Christian believers that believe in Christ risen, as in the Apostles' creed.

These believers are in all sorts of mere denominations, Orthodox, Baptist, you-name-it: those denominational labels don't control whether individual believers are His.

His Church -- capital C here, meaning the real thing, the entire Body of Christ, all of us, the universal Church -- is all who believe in Him, as stated helpfully in the Apostles' Creed, that we believe He came here, took on a human body, died on the cross, and rose again, and will return, and will judge the living and the dead.

When I say I believe His prayer to the Father in John chapter 17 was fully answered, and the Church has been One generally, I mean that all through the years, regardless of whatever controversies and splits on the surface, that in all churches (most all) are individual sheep which are His, and together all of them, as a whole, are the Church. And it's 'catholic' (notice small c!) meaning universal for all of humanity and that those in this Church (capital C) all accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ.


Also, it may be this note about "catholic" from Christian Forums will help at the bottom of the sitewide creed (look for Notes section at bottom):

Statement of Faith
The Nicene Creed
We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes
* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

ChristianForCats said:

Jesus certainly would create a church where people worship like Pentecostals (singing, dancing, chanting, yelling, praying aloud, and speaking in tongues spontaneously) and baptism and Communion are only for beilevers. However, Jesus would not create a church where hairstyles and dress codes matter or want the Communion to be with grape juice, so Pentecostal churches are not a perfect match. And He would create a universal church, not autonomous churches where people disagree on leadership and doctrines.

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Hopefully having cleared up the misunderstanding above now (and hopefully making it clear that I meant practically the opposite about that)...

As I say, "It's not men or a church that has a monopoly on Christ, but instead it's Christ that has the monopoly! On us!"

Did you get a chance to hear that entire wonderful sermon? It was something, a jewel.

Have either of you fine gentlemen heard the sermon in the OP post above? It's why i began this thread.