LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

Peter1000 · Aug 25, 2019

Pedra said:
Thank you btw, because of the former. I'm used to being pummeled with unflattering comments.

You have to know that you are the Queen of pummeling and the giving of unflattering comments, right? All I try to do is keep my gloves up in front of my face so I don't lose by eyesight you are so fast and furious.

Explain to me how this is bad:

I believe that Jesus has existed forever with God the Father (we will talk later about God the Father)
I also believe that Jesus has not always been God.
I believe that Jesus did those things that were worthy of Godhood and that God the Father brought Jesus to sit on his right hand and govern beside him. Jesus was then given the divine power to create and he did create all the natural wonders of the earth and the heavens.
Jesus was also given the power and authority to govern his creation and was know as Yahweh or Jehovah in the OT.
Jesus was the God of the OT and when it came time, his spirit was incarnated into a mortal body and he became fully man. He was the only begotten Son of God the Father. IOW he was the only person born of a mortal body where his Father was God, and his mother was a mortal. No other person like that in the history of earth. So his divinity came with him from heaven and he had the power to save us through the atonement on the cross and his ability to raise himself from the dead.

You and I believe just about the same story. The only difference is that you believe Jesus was divine from the very beginning. I believe he was divine later. But we both believe he was divine before his incarnation.

How does my belief (that he is divine and with this divinity he saved me) keep me from having eternal life with him?

Pedra · Aug 25, 2019

Peter1000 said:
I still believe in the divine Christ and I follow him. I may think differently about how he got his divinity, but he did and he is and he has the divine power to save us. That is why we follow him.

That is not deception. That is not trickery. You teach people about the Trinity, but you do not know the details, and when pressed, you say "it is a mystery, and cannot be understood by finite minds like ours". Is that deception? You say all you have to do is believe, and you are saved. Is that deception? Do you downplay the rigors of the religion so that people think its easy to have eternal life with God and Jesus? And so they become Christians. Is that deception on your part?

We can go on and on about deception. You are are as deceptive as I am. So instead why don't we agree to disagree and lead people to the divine Christ? That is a better use of our time.

It is trickery or deception if a person hides what they believe and why they believe it and pretends they agree with the true Christianity. It is called lying by omission.
Not admitting that the Mormon Jesus is quite different. Mormon's believing He was just a spirit-child like anyone else, and I hate to even put this in writing --that mormons are taught their Jesus is the brother of Satan.
That is not the Christ, the second person in the Godhead.
And it is blaspheming God.

Pedra · Aug 25, 2019

The Hymn writers knew who Jesus was.

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy riven side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure,
Save me from its guilt and power.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All could never sin erase,
Thou must save, and save by grace.

Nothing in my hands I bring,
Simply to Thy cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress,
Helpless, look to Thee for grace:
Foul, I to the fountain fly,
Wash me, Savior, or I die.

While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

Pedra · Aug 25, 2019

Marten Luther did also , by the words of his hymn A Mighty Fortress Is Our GOD.
The Mormons do not recognize who the One True God is, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. HIS Infinite Greatness, Mightiness, Holiness & Power, neither do they know who the Adversary is. They have believed lies of Joseph Smith instead of the Bible.

A Mighty Fortress is our GOD

A mighty fortress is our God,
a bulwark never failing;
our helper he, amid the flood
of mortal ills prevailing.
For still our ancient foe
does seek to work us woe;
his craft and power are great,
and armed with cruel hate,
on earth is not his equal.

2 Did we in our own strength confide,
our striving would be losing,
were not the right Man on our side,
the Man of God's own choosing.
You ask who that may be?
Christ Jesus, it is he;
Lord Sabaoth his name,
from age to age the same;
and he must win the battle.

3 And though this world, with devils filled,
should threaten to undo us,
we will not fear, for God has willed
his truth to triumph through us.
The prince of darkness grim,
we tremble not for him;
his rage we can endure,
for lo! his doom is sure;
one little word shall fell him.

4 That Word above all earthly powers
no thanks to them abideth;
the Spirit and the gifts are ours
through him who with us sideth.
Let goods and kindred go,
this mortal life also;
the body they may kill:
God's truth abideth still;
his kingdom is forever!

Peter1000 · Aug 25, 2019

Pedra said:
It is trickery or deception if a person hides what they believe and why they believe it and pretends they agree with the true Christianity. It is called lying by omission.

You have to know that we don't care if it agrees with your true Christianity. And there is an order to our study. A person is not going to get the meat of the gospel in the first lesson.

Except in these days, because of the internet, most people are aware of things like Jesus is lucifer's brother, so they ask it. When they are told, many accept it as they are taught about the truth of our pre-earth life, and who created what. Many do not accept it and don't join the church at that time.

Same thing with God the Father, we believe that there are gods many and lords many but for us there is only 1 God with which we have to do throughout eternity. When many are told the truth of the matter, and the scriptures that support it, they accept and join the church. Many will not accept and do not join the church.

The same thing about becoming like God. The scriptures are full of that doctrine and should not be such a stumbling stone. So many when they here it the first time, have an aha moment and never look back, get their temple recommends and go for it. Many others reject the teaching and never join the church.

So when PhoebeAnn says she was deceived. Well, no she wasn't, she just did not get past the milk of the gospel and get fed the meat. If she would have stuck around a little longer, she would have been explained these doctrines in a much broader and more palatable way, rather than the stark naked anti-Mormon way. It is too bad, but I hope she is happy now.

So we do not go around trying to deceive people, any more than Paul was going around deceiving the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 3:2). You and many will not accept the meat of the gospel, but many will, and it is those people that we are looking for. Starting with the milk and eventually feeding them with the meat, just like Paul said.

Pedra · Aug 25, 2019

Peter1000 said:
You have to know that we don't care if it agrees with your true Christianity. And there is an order to our study. A person is not going to get the meat of the gospel in the first lesson.

Except in these days, because of the internet, most people are aware of things like Jesus is lucifer's brother, so they ask it. When they are told, many accept it as they are taught about the truth of our pre-earth life, and who created what. Many do not accept it and don't join the church at that time.

Same thing with God the Father, we believe that there are gods many and lords many but for us there is only 1 God with which we have to do throughout eternity. When many are told the truth of the matter, and the scriptures that support it, they accept and join the church. Many will not accept and do not join the church.

The same thing about becoming like God. The scriptures are full of that doctrine and should not be such a stumbling stone. So many when they here it the first time, have an aha moment and never look back, get their temple recommends and go for it. Many others reject the teaching and never join the church.

So when PhoebeAnn says she was deceived. Well, no she wasn't, she just did not get past the milk of the gospel and get fed the meat. If she would have stuck around a little longer, she would have been explained these doctrines in a much broader and more palatable way, rather than the stark naked anti-Mormon way. It is too bad, but I hope she is happy now.

So we do not go around trying to deceive people, any more than Paul was going around deceiving the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 3:2). You and many will not accept the meat of the gospel, but many will, and it is those people that we are looking for. Starting with the milk and eventually feeding them with the meat, just like Paul said.

Oh please do not compare yourselves to Apostle Paul.

Peter1000 · Aug 25, 2019

Pedra said:
It is trickery or deception if a person hides what they believe and why they believe it and pretends they agree with the true Christianity. It is called lying by omission.
Not admitting that the Mormon Jesus is quite different. Mormon's believing He was just a spirit-child like anyone else, and I hate to even put this in writing --that mormons are taught their Jesus is the brother of Satan.
That is not the Christ, the second person in the Godhead.
And it is blaspheming God.

Was Paul deceiving the Corinthians when he did not tell them about the meat of the gospel and only taught them the milk? (See 1 Corinthians 3:2)

Peter1000 · Aug 25, 2019

Pedra said:
Oh please do not compare yourselves to Apostle Paul.

Paul had the same exact problem that we have today. He could not even get past the milk with the Corinthians, so he could not even teach them the meat, why? because they would not accept it and would have run him out of town on the nearest caravan, naked and beaten.

We run into the same problem. We cannot teach a ten year old girl or boy the meat of the gospel, it may be too much for them to understand. Same with the missionaries teaching possible converts. We cannot teach a convert the meat of the gospel in the first lesson, they most likely will not receive it, just like the Corinthians and Paul. It is an exact parallel.

So what we hope is that they can get strong in the milk of the gospel, start looking at a temple marriage and along the way, they are taught the meat doctrines that have a great separating power. Some accept and go forward, some reject and leave the church. All of the Corinthians left the church, in fact all of Paul's converts in Asia left the church too (which is 90% of the church in Asia).
(See 1 Timothy 1:15) So we know Paul had his problems with giving the people the meat.

Pedra · Aug 25, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Was Paul deceiving the Corinthians when he did not tell them about the meat of the gospel and only taught them the milk? (See 1 Corinthians 3:2)

Mormons are not Apostle Paul and the fact that you compare Mormonism to him shows how far you don't get who God is , who Jesus & the Holy Spirit are , neither do you recognize who the Apostles were & their teachings.
What I've seen is Mormons elevate their prophet Joseph Smith and lower everything that is of GOD.
That , is not a good thing my friend. Its delusion.

Peter1000 · Aug 25, 2019

Pedra said:
Mormons are not Apostle Paul and the fact that you compare Mormonism to him shows how far you don't get who God is , who Jesus & the Holy Spirit are , neither do you recognize who the Apostles were & their teachings.
What I've seen is Mormons elevate their prophet Joseph Smith and lower everything that is of GOD.
That , is not a good thing my friend. Its delusion.

Is my story of Paul not correct? Have I lowered Paul somehow in your eyes?

Pedra · Aug 25, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Is my story of Paul not correct? Have I lowered Paul somehow in your eyes?

It is not the same Peter, what Paul did and what Mormonism does.
Mormonism is not upfront with what they believe.

mmksparbud · Aug 25, 2019

Peter1000 said:
That is the message of the gospel, to become like God. Read your scriptures with that in your mind and you will be surprised how often that subject is discussed. Even receiving the full nature of God, and being divine.

How would you like to be a God that creates trillions of other beings, and all you can do is toy with them. There is nobody that is like you are, you are all alone. Everyone of your creations is stupid, and inferior, and small, and insignificant compared to your glory and status.

We believe that God has created beings that can be like he is and have his divine nature and can create and be on His growth pattern. Our growth pattern expands God's growth pattern as we bring glory upon glory to our God.

If you look at the event on the Mt. Transfiguration, Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James, and John but looked no brighter than Moses and Elijah that he was standing next to, because they too have reached a level of Godhood that is near to Jesus.

Moses and Elijah are mortals that learned the same life style that Jesus had learned in the pre-earth life. It took Moses and Elijah much longer to learn the lifestyle of Jesus, but they did and standing next to Jesus they all shined brightly with godliness. I believe there are many men who are just like God and Jesus that were mortals. That is God's purpose to create beings to be like him. Otherwise it would be a lonely place at the top.

As you all like to say---One in purpose!! We become like Him in character. We are transformed by the Holy Spirit to reflect His character, not to become physically as He is. That is not possible, the created can not become an uncreated, divine being! Enoch was translated, so was Elijah. They are not gods! They remain and always will be--glorified humans. As Jesus is now, but Jesus also remains divine, we will not ever be divine. The divine are not created. Jesus was not created, He was divine always with the Father.
Becoming gods is not the message of the gospel---it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us of our sins and makes us adopted children and heirs with Jesus---but that does not make us divine uncreated beings! JS had delusions of grandeur and lusted after power and women.

He is the way · Aug 25, 2019

Pedra said:
Mormons are not Apostle Paul and the fact that you compare Mormonism to him shows how far you don't get who God is , who Jesus & the Holy Spirit are , neither do you recognize who the Apostles were & their teachings.
What I've seen is Mormons elevate their prophet Joseph Smith and lower everything that is of GOD.
That , is not a good thing my friend. Its delusion.

God is powerful. He is so powerful He can make us heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

(New Testament | Romans 8:17)

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Pedra · Aug 26, 2019

He is the way said:
God is powerful. He is so powerful He can make us heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.

(New Testament | Romans 8:17)

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

But the god you worship is a counterfeit, your Mormon god is just one of many men who became "gods" .
Your belief in your god, is Not the Judeo-Christian God who was never a man.

He is the way · Aug 26, 2019

Pedra said:
But the god you worship is a counterfeit, your Mormon god is just one of many men who became "gods" .
Your belief in your god, is Not the Judeo-Christian God who was never a man.

Are you saying that Jesus Christ is not God?

(New Testament | Titus 2:13)

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 11)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

However Jesus Christ said:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Pedra · Aug 26, 2019

He is the way said:
Are you saying that Jesus Christ is not God?

Shame on you! Why do you make that false allegation? It is very dishonest.
You Know exactly what I said.
This is an example of your treachery, it is what you have been up to all through this thread every time Mormonism is confronted for its Idolatry of Worshiping another god! The closer a person looks at Mormonism the more it's deceptive strategies are exposed.

He is the way · Aug 26, 2019

Pedra said:
Shame on you! Why do you make that false allegation? It is very dishonest.
You Know exactly what I said.
This is an example of your treachery, it is what you have been up to all through this thread every time Mormonism is confronted for its Idolatry of Worshiping another god! The closer a person looks at Mormonism the more it's deceptive strategies are exposed.

It is not dishonest at all. In order to sort out why you believe that I believe in a different God, I need to know what you believe. For instance, do you believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are of the same substance?

Rescued One · Aug 26, 2019

Mormons seem to call lard "meat."

mmksparbud · Aug 26, 2019

He is the way said:
It is not dishonest at all. In order to sort out why you believe that I believe in a different God, I need to know what you believe. For instance, do you believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are of the same substance?

You know very well what is meant for it has been explained countless times. You're being grossly deceptive. Jesus was God with the Father and the Holy Spirit from everlasting to everlasting, always was and always will be---they were completely of the same substance. At the incarnation, Jesus took on humanity, yet retained His divinity. He was resurrected in His humanity, yet glorified. His will forever retain His humanity, but will always retain His divinity. Divinity can not be created. We will never be divine, we will be glorified and no one knows exactly what that means yet. I can't even recollect how many times this has been stated to you and you still act as though you just heard it and don't underdstand. Jesus was never created, He was incarnated. There is no heavenly mother, no heavenly grandfather nor great, great.........grandfather.

dzheremi · Aug 26, 2019

He is the way said:
It is not dishonest at all. In order to sort out why you believe that I believe in a different God, I need to know what you believe. For instance, do you believe that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are of the same substance?

Why would you even assume that there are all these different theologies in Christianity on as basic a point as the relation of the Persons of the Holy Trinity? Traditional Protestantism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy all affirm the same point on this matter, because it is that basic. See: The "Old 100th" Trinitarian doxology hymn (which YouTube tells me is included in the Baptist Hymnal as hymn #256, but I remember singing it as a kid, and I grew up in the Presbyterian Church, so I assume it is "pan-Protestant", or as much as anything can be), the Coptic/Syriac "Is Pateer" (One is the Holy Father), the Armenian "Amen Hayr Surb", the Roman Catholic doxology at the raising of the gifts, and so on.

You may find an individual who rebels against this, but in doing so they are doing nothing less or nothing else than rebelling against any and all forms of Christianity. I mean, for goodness sake, even the Nestorians follow this most basic understanding, and they haven't been in communion with any other church since 431 AD! That's barely a century after the first of your spiritual fathers, the heretic Arius, and his ilk were thrown out of the Church for their heresies concerning Christ and His relation to the Father. (And said heresy wouldn't reemerge until over a millennia later, with some of the radical offshoots of the Protestant reformation, which the Reformers themselves would no doubt disclaim given what they affirmed of traditional Christian theology.)

LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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