Why are most Christians so accepting of magic

Viper4Christ said:

It's also the tale end of Revolver Ocelots speech in Metal Gear Solid 2.

What I find interesting is we have no issue crediting a multitude of designers, engineers and inventors of tangible objects. Yet absolutely scoff at the idea of God being the grand designer of the universe to the point of inventing (there's that word again) our own theories on how everything came to be under its own power from a supposed quark particle.
"God forbid there is a God"

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I don't think god is being scoffed at, its this word supernatural that is being scoffed at. Have you even concidered god put the quark particle there? Got to get away that all this nonsense that god has magic powers.

steve78 said:

Actually i call it common sense.

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So would they...

JacksBratt said:

If you don't like that vid.... just go online and pick any of the many demonic magician video's of the others that I have mentioned.... Sorry that the editing was not up to your standards.

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Look mate, its just all just trickery and illusion, nothing demonic about any of it. I will have a look at some of your vids and tell you how the trick was done.

JacksBratt said:

I don't even know what you are trying to state here. I'm simply stating that there are magicians out there that obviously use demonic entities to perform their work.

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Nonsense!

This sort of rubbish belongs in the 15th century. Its on par with all the witch finder stuff in the middle ages. Many of the witch-finders were frauds.

JacksBratt said:

Harry Potter is just one link in a chain.. a link that brings occult, spells, power, supernatural abilities to an audience that is eager for such things. All the while, the parents are asleep at the wheel of guiding the spiritual destination of their children.

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Its just harmless fun.

Things like spells and position's are often based on real science.

steve78 said:

Look mate, its just all just trickery and illusion, nothing demonic about any of it. I will have a look at some of your vids and tell you how the trick was done.

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Well, I believe that you have been fooled by the oldest and most deceptive of all...

I don't believe you will accept the truth... but.. go to the six minute mark of this:

JacksBratt said:

Harry Potter is just one link in a chain.. a link that brings occult, spells, power, supernatural abilities to an audience that is eager for such things. All the while, the parents are asleep at the wheel of guiding the spiritual destination of their children.

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All seven of my children (ages 25 to 11) grew up reading Harry Potter and none of them have ever expressed the slightest desire to become a witch or wizard or become involved in the occult. If you don't like Harry Potter, then don't read it and let your children read it. But you and other Christians who oppose Harry Potter don't have a right to tell other parents they shouldn't allow their children to read the books. It's honestly none of your business or the concern of other nosy parents if I allow my children to read Harry Potter or read other fantasy books or watch movies with magical themes.

steve78 said:

Its just harmless fun.

Things like spells and position's are often based on real science.

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Speaking of science since you mentioned it, I thought you might be interested in reading The Science of Harry Potter. I also recommend reading Looking for God in Harry Potter too. Both books are good.

Carl Emerson said:

Yes this is at the heart of this matter. Travelling closer to Jesus will change your tastes and desires. It will also change the way you view worldly pleasures.

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I love your perspective and agree. There are many things I’ve set aside and more to come. The less contamination I receive the clearer things appear. Including activities I once believed were harmless.

Many folks feel that this area of life is somehow off territory to the Holy Spirit and they can like what they like.

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I have a penchant for period films and historical dramatizations. I read a lot of classics. I tried Netflix earlier this year. But the lineup made me uncomfortable. Even though I kept to my interests. I had an odd feeling and cancelled it.

A similar feeling arose during The Kentucky Derby. By then I understood. I watched The Masters a few weeks prior and the message was clear. The disparity in entertainment is staggering.

Activities that favor the wealthy have a different image and underlying message. The commercials are wholesome and family-friendly. But the things put forth to the masses have a different odor.

The same holds true with opera, symphony, theater, and ballet. Storytelling isn’t gruesome and doesn’t drag its feet in the muck. It isn’t poisonous. I made a decision to disconnect myself from those messages. The differences were too great to ignore.

The idea of Him wanting to redeem our tastes and preferences is not taught. By this means He guides us away from the matters tainted by the enemy, things that in the natural seemed OK.

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I’m His lady. I have no desire to eat from that tree. I’ve put better things in its place. I steep my mind on wholesome and uplifting subjects. The more I yield to His standard the better my life becomes. I’m a better servant, companion, parent and friend.

Good qualities rub off.

tryphena rose said:

In so much of our media and entertainment such as books, television shows, movies, video games and even music, magic is something that isn't used sparingly throughout the list of "creative" ideas to the world. In fact, it's getting harder to deter away from entertainment that doesn't contain some type of occult idea that defies the Truths of God.

When I first became a Christian, this was a big conviction for me as I wasn't into practicing anything occultic nor did I even believe it was true, however I was influenced by occult ideas based off of the media I was consuming, whether I had known it or not. As this was one of my very first convictions and I was strongly led by the Holy Spirit to turn from these things, I quickly saw how this wasn't the case for a majority of others. When things like Disney and Harry Potter are so popular, even among professing Christians, I'm left wondering how can this be so?

Talk to any born again believer who has come out of the new age movement and they understand how serious this is, because they've seen how far too real the deception of the enemy is to be lenient with these kinds of ideas, even at the expense of their own pleasure. In Revelation 21:8 the Bible says that sorcerers will have their part in the lake of fire. If this is taken seriously by God to include these kinds of people in the lake of fire, then why aren't the very ideas and practices that will put these people in the lake of fire, taken more seriously among Christians?

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I think a lot of Christians are so accepting of it because they sincerely don't see the harm in it. They seem to believe magic can be fictionalized. And they're not completely wrong about that.

In addition, the Christians who defend Harry Potter the most vocally tend to be the Christians who have done the least amount of research into actual occult activities and practices. If they understand how similar Harry Potter is to actual practices, they might be a bit more reticent about accepting that stuff in their homes.

Still, I do see nuance to this. Lord Of The Rings presents minor forms of magic within a fictional context. But unlike Harry Potter, magic in LOTR is done in a way which truly is harmless. Magic in fiction isn't inherently bad. The time to get concerned is when actual occult practices get mingled in with fiction.

Harry Potter does just that and so do loads of other Hollywood products. Those are to be avoided as much as possible.

Messerve said:

Oh, I didn't remember reading that in your first post. I personally think you're wrong about the books not being allegorical, though. In The Voyage of the Dawn Treader he appears as a lamb and tells the children that he brought them to Narnia in order that they would recognize him better in their own world. I think C. S. Lewis pretty much summarized the intent of the whole series in that scene. Namely, that after reading the books people would realize that Aslan is really just a characterization of God / Jesus. So that's definitely an allegory.
About the magic book and spells, Aslan never said he was happy about Lucy making him visible. He was happy because she hugged him. The one confusing part is that Lucy says it's silly to think she could have actually done anything to make him visible, but Alsan replies that he has to follow his own rules. I wasn't sure what to make of that, but I assumed Lewis was making a comparison between the spells in Narnia and prayer on earth and saying something like if we ask for God to make Himself visible in our world, through movements of the Spirit, He will answer that prayer. But maybe I'm just reading into it too much...

That article you linked does bring up some interesting things... I never read many other books by Lewis, but my parents loved Mere Christianity and Surprised by Joy. They are also very solid, biblical Christians who wouldn't even think of reading something that seems to support the occult or universalism. So I want to see those quotes in their full context before making a conclusion.

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out. Now back to the movies.

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The point here is magic spells (or sorcery) are of the devil and they are not of God. So they can never be compared to prayer in any way. No book, movie, comic can allegorize something (like sorcery) that is sinful according to the Bible. The Bible condemns sorcery. The Narnia series clearly promotes sorcery or magic. Again, one cannot change the reality of sin (sorcery) by allegorizing it in some form of fictional work. The Bible is still going to condemn the sin of sorcery despite C.S. Lewis saying otherwise in his books.

Let me give you an example: I want you to imagine the worst kind of sin that you can think of. Now, I want you to imagine that somebody wrote a book that tries to allegorize the kind of sin that you hate the most and they try to pass this sin off in this fictional world as being okay to God, His Word, and to "you" the reader. Would you approve? The point here is that we cannot choose which sins we think are okay to allegorize in fictional works. If God's Word condemns sorcery and it is a sin, then we should be far removed from having anything to do with anything that would resemble witchcraft or sorcery.

tryphena rose said:

I was strongly led by the Holy Spirit to turn from these things

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When I first became a christian I put my TV in the closet and I did not watch it at all. When I finally did watch TV again, it was to watch the Olympics or something that I did not feel would interfere with my walk with God.

With magic I think Penn and Teller is an interesting pair. Penn has no problems telling a lie as he is an atheist and it would appear that atheist do not have a problem with lies. Teller seems to have a problem telling lies. Even though deception, even morbid deception does not seem to be an issue for him.

Bible Highlighter said:

The Bible is still going to condemn the sin of sorcery despite C.S. Lewis saying otherwise in his books.

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Where does he say this... please quote.

Carl Emerson said:

Where does he say this... please quote.

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He says it indirectly by the promoting of his works that show that witchcraft (which is a serious sin to GOD) is okay in his fictional universe. Nowhere does the sin of sorcery or magic ever get rebuked in his fictional universe whereby the people doing magic are told to repent or turn to GOD or you will perish by a Christian or man of God. That is what would happen if GOD entered the equation within his fictional universe.

Carl Emerson said:

Where does he say this... please quote.

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C.S. Lewis does make some pagan statements that are not good.

"Lewis once said that if you’re not going to be a Christian, the next best thing is to be a good Norseman, because “the Norse pagans sided with the good gods…” (The Sign of The Grail by C.J.S. Hayward).

He also once dared to slyly suggest, “First let us make the younger generation good pagans and afterwards let us make them Christians” (C.S. Lewis letter from Yours, Jack; p. 219).

“It is only since I have become a Christian that I have learned really to value the elements of truth in Paganism and Idealism. I wished to value them in the old days; now I really do. Don’t suppose that I ever thought myself that certain elements of pantheism were incompatible with Christianity or with Catholicism.” – C.S. Lewis in a letter to Bede Griffiths, April 4, 1934.

From what I can tell it is from not enough studying Word of God and too much following the ideas of media which is ran by the evil one

tryphena rose said:

In so much of our media and entertainment such as books, television shows, movies, video games and even music, magic is something that isn't used sparingly throughout the list of "creative" ideas to the world. In fact, it's getting harder to deter away from entertainment that doesn't contain some type of occult idea that defies the Truths of God.

When I first became a Christian, this was a big conviction for me as I wasn't into practicing anything occultic nor did I even believe it was true, however I was influenced by occult ideas based off of the media I was consuming, whether I had known it or not. As this was one of my very first convictions and I was strongly led by the Holy Spirit to turn from these things, I quickly saw how this wasn't the case for a majority of others. When things like Disney and Harry Potter are so popular, even among professing Christians, I'm left wondering how can this be so?

Talk to any born again believer who has come out of the new age movement and they understand how serious this is, because they've seen how far too real the deception of the enemy is to be lenient with these kinds of ideas, even at the expense of their own pleasure. In Revelation 21:8 the Bible says that sorcerers will have their part in the lake of fire. If this is taken seriously by God to include these kinds of people in the lake of fire, then why aren't the very ideas and practices that will put these people in the lake of fire, taken more seriously among Christians?

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Gregory95 said:

From what I can tell it is from not enough studying Word of God and too much following the ideas of media which is ran by the evil one

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When I see lists of Christian films, sometimes they place movies like the Shack, or the Trump prophecy, etc. in their list. This tells me they really do not read and properly study their Bible all too much.

Mmmm... So no place for allegorical fantasy for introducing Christian themes.

I don't see Lewis condoning witchcraft in real life.

Paganism, as a world view, is not entirely depraved I would have thought. Same with any world view, usually a mix of good and bad.

We are not so good at sifting out the good in other world views. Sure without the Love of Jesus they come to nothing but they can still contain principles that are relevant and useful.

1 Cor 13 shows us that noble acts without Jesus love have no eternal value.

3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

This does not mean that here is no value in feeding the poor.

So Lewis seemed to identify aspects of Pagan life that were noble.

Carl Emerson said:

Mmmm... So no place for allegorical fantasy for introducing Christian themes.

I don't see Lewis condoning witchcraft in real life.

Paganism, as a world view, is not entirely depraved I would have thought. Same with any world view, usually a mix of good and bad.

We are not so good at sifting out the good in other world views. Sure without the Love of Jesus they come to nothing but they can still contain principles that are relevant and useful.

1 Cor 13 shows us that noble acts without Jesus love have no eternal value.

3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

This does not mean that here is no value in feeding the poor.

So Lewis seemed to identify aspects of Pagan life that were noble.

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Nope. Not if they are promoting sin as the allegory. Sorcery or magic is a sin to GOD. That would be like an author who writes a book about how murder and rape are not a sin in his fictional universe and it is an allegory for something biblical or good. Would that be okay? Surely not. An author cannot make sin an allegory so as to parallel something that is good. It doesn't work like that. Sorcery is a sin. One cannot allegorize evil or sin to be something good. An author does not have the power to allegorize or change the reality of something sinful in our real world. He may be able to change the laws of physics and or science in some way, and maybe even create a "What if scenario involving God," so as to point us to the Lord, but an author cannot change the good morals that God has established for us today under the New Covenant. The core of being a follower of Christ is to obey the Lord and His good ways. God wants us to be in a right relationship with Him and He doesn't want us to justify sin or evil.

C.S. Lewis is promoting a world where the sin of witchcraft is acceptable and okay (Even though the Bible clearly condemns such a sin). I will stick with the Bible and not C.S. Lewis. For C.S. Lewis does not appear to have a problem with sorcery or magic; However, the Bible does have a problem with it.

For example: Should Christians watch cartoon inappropriate content movies? It is entirely fantasy. No actors were involved in having intercourse. Yet, lust, and sexual immorality is promoted. What would be the difference if the inappropriate content was an allegory for something supposedly good? Would that change anything? Surely not. So then why does the sin of sorcery get a free pass? In the OT: A person was to be stoned if they were a sorcerer.

Do you view his 'Screwtape Letters' in the same way?

In his book, he writes about a dialogue between two demons to help Christians understand the nature of the spiritual battle around them.

This is fiction but refers to demonic dialogue.

Is this equally bad?

What about Pilgrims progress?

This refers to wicked entities trying to impede the growth of believers.

By the way I am trying to get a grip on what you think is OK and what is not - I am not doubting the validity of your position.

I would also be fascinated to know if your journey to Jesus involved being delivered from occult involvement.

I think also that whether or not Lewis promotes sin is the pivotal issue.

I classify other well known fiction as a soft sell of the occult but I haven't felt the same about Lewis.

Believe me I am keen to get to the bottom of this.