Who is responsible for our sanctification?

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
It’s sad that so many Christians today believe this. They think that they have enough goodness in them to make them holier.

It's not an either/or. God works in me to the extent that I rely on him. If I insist on trying to do it all myself, he will allow me to, but it won't really work.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
It's not an either/or. God works in me to the extent that I rely on him. If I insist on trying to do it all myself, he will allow me to, but it won't really work.

That makes Him subservient to you.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
That makes Him subservient to you.

How so? I can quote plenty of verses about the necessity of seeking God to find him.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
How so? I can quote plenty of verses about the necessity of seeking God to find him.

That’s different than God needing your actions before He acts.

Oldmantook · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
So pointing out that a verse doesn’t say what you claim it says is an argument from silence?

Rather than continue our discussion, I suggest you study. Look up "argument from silence" on the internet. Do your due diligence as it only takes a few keystrokes. Not hard to do is it?

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Rather than continue our discussion, I suggest you study. Look up "argument from silence" on the internet. Do your due diligence as it only takes a few keystrokes. Not hard to do is it?

To make an argument from silence (Latin: argumentum ex silentio) is to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence.

That’s what you’ve done by saying that Galatians 1:6 says that they lost their salvation.

fhansen · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
So the only change in us is from us? We just act better?

Just the opposite, grace is supernatural by its nature.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

fhansen said:
Just the opposite, grace is supernatural by its nature.

Exactly.

fhansen · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Exactly.

Yes

fhansen · Aug 15, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
"The idea is that God’s grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. It is not that the Holy Spirit drags people kicking and screaming to Christ against their wills. The Holy Spirit changes the inclination and disposition of our wills, so that whereas we were previously unwilling to embrace Christ, now we are willing, and more than willing."
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Irresistible Grace

In Catholicism all that is true, the necessity of the Holy Spirit moving in us as you say. Except for the fact that we can still say no to Him, in the beginning or at any step later on down the line. We can't possibly say yes without grace, but we can still resist grace.

God works to get humanity over that hurdle; that's why it's taken so long; that's why He's patiently worked though a people down through the centuries, to bring man to that point, where he might be ready to embrace the light. Otherwise God may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the reprobate from the beginning, and avoided a huge amount of pain and suffering and evil in our history.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
That’s different than God needing your actions before He acts.

You are overcomplicating it. God isn't generally a harasser, he's a gentleman and a gentle lover. You want to be closer to him, get closer. More Bible, more praying. All your systematic theology doesn't have much bearing on it.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
You are overcomplicating it. God isn't generally a harasser, he's a gentleman and a gentle lover. You want to be closer to him, get closer. More Bible, more praying. All your systematic theology doesn't have much bearing on it.

I don’t know what Bible you are reading, but He’s not a Gentleman.

ChicanaRose · Aug 15, 2019

fhansen said:
God works to get humanity over that hurdle; that's why it's taken so long; that's why He's patiently worked though a people down through the centuries, to bring man to that point, where he might be ready to embrace the light.

So in the end, it's irresistible, right?

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

He is in my experience. And I'm reading the same Bible. If you're waiting for him to kick down the door it's not likely to happen.

Hammster said:
I don’t know what Bible you are reading, but He’s not a Gentleman.

sdowney717 · Aug 15, 2019

KingdomTruth said:
Both God and we are responsible for our sanctification. Working out your salvation in fear and trembling, means just that. You (Not God), working out your salvation (Not God's Salvation, Your Salvation), in fear and trembling. You must prove and confirm your election, by bearing fruit, till the very end.

Sure, but it then says for it is God who is at work within you. The fear and trembling on our part what our attitude should be, not that He will destroy us in hell, but that the way we live our lives affects how things work out in life. So we should live lives as pleasing to him, or we could find ourselves slopping pigs in a pig sty or some other very unpleasant experience and our emotional state could be ruined. The Lord will judge His people. And at the judgement seat of Christ we will give account to Him for the things we did in the body, that type fear is what Paul means.

fhansen · Aug 15, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
So in the end, it's irresistible, right?

No, if it were irresistible then there'd be no reason for all the work, all the history of human drama-and He might as well just save everyone in that case. Why create anyone just for the fate of experiencing evil eternally, if they have no part in opting for that existence apart from God?

sdowney717 · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
It's not just about the Jews, nor did I say it was. I said a few verses that are commonly thought to refer to the reader, are actually referring to saints in the past, in order to encourage the reader. It is however, Paul's explanation of how God worked out the plan of salvation. It's not a deterministic formula about how God picks people for salvation, it's actually just the opposite, it's explaining how God is opening salvation to all who enter through faith. If you have a question about what a passage is about, Paul usually sums it up for you, and this is how he sums up Romans 9;
30 What then shall we say?
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness,:have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. Paul does not say : in summary some of you are chosen for salvation and some for damnation... Sucks to be you.

First comes the election, then comes the faith, for faith is a gift from God.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
He is in my experience. And I'm reading the same Bible. If you're waiting for him to kick down the door it's not likely to happen.

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”
— Revelation 16:1

“Therefore wait for Me,” declares the Lord,
“For the day when I rise up as a witness.
Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
To assemble kingdoms,
To pour out on them My indignation,
All My burning anger;
For all the earth will be devoured
By the fire of My zeal.
— Zephaniah 3:8

Neither their silver nor their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the Lord’s wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
— Zephaniah 1:18

Doesn’t sound very gentlemanly.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

sdowney717 said:
First comes the election, then comes the faith, for faith is a gift from God.

No, grace is the gift.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple, saying to the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”
— Revelation 16:1

“Therefore wait for Me,” declares the Lord,
“For the day when I rise up as a witness.
Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
To assemble kingdoms,
To pour out on them My indignation,
All My burning anger;
For all the earth will be devoured
By the fire of My zeal.
— Zephaniah 3:8

Neither their silver nor their gold
Will be able to deliver them
On the day of the Lord’s wrath;
And all the earth will be devoured
In the fire of His jealousy,
For He will make a complete end,
Indeed a terrifying one,
Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
— Zephaniah 1:18

Doesn’t sound very gentlemanly.

Then you have the wrong impression of what a gentleman is. God is a warrior when a warrior is called for, but in his relationships with believers, he is a gentle lover.

Who is responsible for our sanctification?

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