Who is responsible for our sanctification?

Hammster said:

And now you are diverting from the topic. That has nothing to do with whether or not we are naturally children of God.

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It's got to do with whether "children of the devil" means those who have allowed themselves to be controlled by their worldly nature or those who literally are "children of a demoniac".

Mountainmanbob said:

Don't see how you got there?
M-Bob

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I don't think there's any doubt that God is the only creative source, so in that sense only God is our Father. All that remains is for us to grope for Him, which is what He wants, hoping we will find him because we are family, only lost members, sheep.

Acts of the Apostles 17
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

God took the initiative to wake a desire in the Athenians, being His children, hoping they would seek Him.

renniks said:

It is these who God previously knew, Israelites who loved God in the past, who were predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ so as to make the way for His coming...so God foreknows who will be faithful to him and chooses them to move forward with his plan of salvation.

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I am sorry, but that's just way wrong, the letter is written to Gentile Roman Christians, not jews, Paul calls them brethren these gentile christians called to be saints.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Spirit of God wont bear that testimony to the unbelieving world of all mankind that they are the children of God, which just also proves they are not His children and they are also of course not heirs with Christ. And they also wont be glorified together with Him. All that is reserved only for the children of God.

Nope not part of the family of God named in heaven and earth unless born of God.
I dont understand why any would fight the clear wording here in scripture.
Somethings must be unlearned to learn what is true and right.

sdowney717 said:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Spirit of God wont bear that testimony to the unbelieving world of all mankind that they are the children of God, which just also proves they are not His children and they are also of course not heirs with Christ. And they also wont be glorified together with Him. All that is reserved only for the children of God.

Nope not part of the family of God named in heaven and earth unless born of God.
I dont understand why any would fight the clear wording here in scripture.
Somethings must be unlearned to learn what is true and right.

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Are the children of God obedient to God from birth, naturally?

sdowney717 said:

But they thought they were.





Ephesians 3:8-16 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
8 Even unto me the least of all Saints is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles, the unsearchable riches of Christ,

9 And to make clear unto all men what the fellowship of the mystery is, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who hath created all things by Jesus Christ,

10 To the intent, that now unto principalities and powers in heavenly places, might be known by the Church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose, which he wrought in Christ Jesus our Lord:

12 By whom we have boldness and entrance with confidence, by faith in him.

13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for your sakes, which is your glory.

14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

15 Of whom is named the whole family in heaven and in earth

16 That he might grant you according to the riches of his glory, that ye may be strengthened by his Spirit in the inner man,

The eternal purpose Of God was to give to Christ His children which are His church and are then of the family of God named in heaven and on earth.
The family of God is made up of His children only, and no child of God is left out of this relationship

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That is one of the scariest things that I have ever read in The Bible.

Should bring on some fear and trembling?

Wordkeeper said:

I don't think there's any doubt that God is the only creative source, so in that sense only God is our Father. All that remains is for us to grope for Him, which is what He wants, hoping we will find him because we are family, only lost members, sheep.

Acts of the Apostles 17
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.

God took the initiative to wake a desire in the Athenians, being His children, hoping they would seek Him.

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In Athens Paul was taken before the Areopagus, a group of people established centuries earlier who were the judicial authority over the question of new god's being introduced, and who had the power of exile and capital punishment.

Paul's argument was that he wasn't introducing a new God, rather, he was revealing the nature to them of a God they already knew.

The unknown God, is most likely God of the Jews. As there were prohibitions against speaking Gods name aloud in Jewish culture, this probably translated into an "unknown" God to the Athenians since names are important to knowing and without a name they didn't have a name to write.

So what Paul did was to make an argument concerning this God, telling them they can now know Him through Paul's teaching.

On this path, He also used something that was written about this God, that we are God's "children" most likely something heard originally from Jews, but through some measure of contact with Jewish people it's now a concept known also by these pagans in reference to this God.

We can argue these points for days, but what does this have to do with the thread topic?

Wordkeeper said:

Are the children of God obedient to God from birth, naturally?

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We learn and are corrected by His Holy Spirit otherwise we would be illegitimate (bastards) not His children. Being born of God, God of course is able to teach us spiritual things of God as it says in 1 corinthians of how the Spirit reveals to us the deep things of God.

Example here Peter says this
1 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

and then he says we have been begotten again which means we are now His children,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

sdowney717 said:

I am sorry, but that's just way wrong, the letter is written to Gentile Roman Christians, not jews, Paul calls them brethren these gentile christians called to be saints.

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So? I didn't say it was to Jews. Again, your focus is too narrow. Paul explains the history of the Jews, and God's faithfulness to them, so the gentiles can understand how God's faithfulness resulted in them being grafted in, and that salvation comes through faith not works.

renniks said:

So? I didn't say it was to Jews. Again, your focus is too narrow. Paul explains the history of the Jews, and God's faithfulness to them, so the gentiles can understand how God's faithfulness resulted in them being grafted in, and that salvation comes through faith not works.

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That whole chapter is about whom and why God saves and santifies, it's not just written about jews long since ancient times dead who also would have been considered ancients to those who Paul directly wrote his letter. Nope, it was contemporary as to how God interacts with His people. And its for all time up to the present day. Your twisting what is written because it goes against everything you believe in about the election and calling of those whom God has foreknown as His people, which were not just jewish ones.

In Romans 9, Paul carries forward with the same theme, and specifically includes some gentiles as being called the same way as some jews that He called.

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

sdowney717 said:

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

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Israel is the lump of clay, see Jeremiah 18

Hazelelponi said:

In Athens Paul was taken before the Areopagus, a group of people established centuries earlier who were the judicial authority over the question of new god's being introduced, and who had the power of exile and capital punishment.

Paul's argument was that he wasn't introducing a new God, rather, he was revealing the nature to them of a God they already knew.

The unknown God, is most likely God of the Jews. As there were prohibitions against speaking Gods name aloud in Jewish culture, this probably translated into an "unknown" God to the Athenians since names are important to knowing and without a name they didn't have a name to write.

So what Paul did was to make an argument concerning this God, telling them they can now know Him through Paul's teaching.

On this path, He also used something that was written about this God, that we are God's "children" most likely something heard originally from Jews, but through some measure of contact with Jewish people it's now a concept known also by these pagans in reference to this God.

We can argue these points for days, but what does this have to do with the thread topic?

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It's common and usual for threads to branch out into sub topics. To find out how, just keep clicking on the quoted subject matter.

Hammster said:

That’s not a cryptic statement. It’s about as unambiguous as it comes. Plus, it’s he says the same thing in other ways elsewhere. Just reread the OP.

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None of those statements are worth building a theology on, as if Paul was laying out some new Christian concept or doctrine. They can amount to not much more than encouragement, hyperbole. If we take it in the strictly literal sense, then everyone who heard those words was necessarily among the elect. Either way the Church doesn't view it as indicating strict determinism, only that God knows who are His and how we will choose. And double predestination is emphatically rejected.

sdowney717 said:

We learn and are corrected by His Holy Spirit otherwise we would be illegitimate (bastards) not His children. Being born of God, God of course is able to teach us spiritual things of God as it says in 1 corinthians of how the Spirit reveals to us the deep things of God.

Example here Peter says this
1 Peter 1 King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

and then he says we have been begotten again which means we are now His children,

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

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I mean was Peter a child of God from, say 7 years old, or 13 years old?

Wordkeeper said:

It's common and usual for threads to branch out into sub topics. To find out how, just keep clicking on the quoted subject matter.

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I did... but I still have no idea how Paul making the Jewish God known to the people of Athens through Christ our Lord has anything to do with the "who" is responsible for our salvation..

sdowney717 said:

That whole chapter is about whom and why God saves and santifies, it's not just written about jews long since ancient times dead who also would have been considered ancients to those who Paul directly wrote his letter. Nope, it was contemporary as to how God interacts with His people. And its for all time

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It's not just about the Jews, nor did I say it was. I said a few verses that are commonly thought to refer to the reader, are actually referring to saints in the past, in order to encourage the reader. It is however, Paul's explanation of how God worked out the plan of salvation. It's not a deterministic formula about how God picks people for salvation, it's actually just the opposite, it's explaining how God is opening salvation to all who enter through faith. If you have a question about what a passage is about, Paul usually sums it up for you, and this is how he sums up Romans 9;
30 What then shall we say?
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness,:have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. Paul does not say : in summary some of you are chosen for salvation and some for damnation... Sucks to be you.

Hammster said:

I’m not using it as predestination for salvation. But that seems to be what you are hung up on. How about we just discuss what it says.

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Well, help me with my hang up then. If not about election or reprobation, where else is the will of man in contention as it applies to our faith?