Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation

yeshuaslavejeff

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The word abide means to stay or remain.
.... and, I think, to continue to stay with 'through hardship, pains and trials' , no matter what .... or something like that, 'ongoing' regardless of circumstances .... (not just in fair /good weather / times... ) .
 
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sdowney717

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The word abide means to stay or remain.

abide

G3306


Lemma:

μένω


Transliteration:

ménō


Pronounce:

men'-o


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to remain, abide a) in reference to place

1) to sojourn, tarry

2) not to depart a) to continue to be present b) to be held, kept, continually b) in reference to time

1) to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure a) of persons, to survive, live c) in reference to state or condition

1) to remain as one, not to become another or different

2) to wait for, await one

No one who is 'of the world' will remain with Christ, just as John 6 says, they will be offended by Christ and His words.
Jesus though says His disciples are NOT OF THE WORLD. Yet you say they are or can be again. That is the spirit of antichrist who is a liar and loves it too. All he can speak is a lie.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own.
Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
 
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BNR32FAN

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.... and, I think, to continue to stay with 'through hardship, pains and trials' , no matter what .... or something like that, 'ongoing' regardless of circumstances .... (not just in fair /good weather / times... ) .

I agree but I also believe that if a person should fail to abide they can still be saved if they repent.
 
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Hammster

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I agree but I also believe that if a person should fail to abide they can still be saved if they repent.
Not according to scripture.

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
— Hebrews 6:4-6
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I agree but I also believe that if a person should fail to abide they can still be saved if they repent.
The way you put it, it may be possible.

The way Scripture puts it, others who trample underfoot the preciousness of Jesus,
after they have once tasted of the powers of the heavenlies,
cannot be saved - i.e. the ones for whom there no longer remains any payment for their sins (so they must die).
 
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BNR32FAN

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No one who is 'of the world' will remain with Christ, just as John 6 says, they will be offended by Christ and His words.
Jesus though says His disciples are NOT OF THE WORLD. Yet you say they are or can be again. That is the spirit of antichrist who is a liar and loves it too. All he can speak is a lie.

John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own.
Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

He is telling them to abide so they remain not if this world. Yes He says at that time they are not of this world. Of course at that time they were in Christ otherwise they could not abide in Him if they were not currently in Him. Nothing indicated that His 11 faithful apostles could not choose to become worldly. The message or, warning I should say, that Jesus is giving them is actually an indication that they are capable of failing to abide and becoming worldly.
 
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sdowney717

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He is telling them to abide so they remain not if this world. Yes He says at that time they are not of this world. Of course at that time they were in Christ otherwise they could not abide in Him if they were not currently in Him. Nothing indicated that His 11 faithful apostles could not choose to become worldly. The message or, warning I should say, that Jesus is giving them is actually an indication that they are capable of failing to abide and becoming worldly.
I think I am on to something with you, you deprecate the new birth being born of God as basically worthless regarding eternal salvation, and put the entire burden on man to stay in a 'correct relationship' with God.
 
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sdowney717

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God though has something to say about them who are in the New Covenant, and dont entertain unenlightened dullards either with different ideas.

Hebrews 8
6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.

8 For he finds fault with them when he says:

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah,
9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not continue in my covenant,
and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws into their minds,
and write them on their hearts,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor
and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
for they shall all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities,
and I will remember their sins no more.”


13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The way you put it, it may be possible.

The way Scripture puts it, others who trample underfoot the preciousness of Jesus,
after they have once tasted of the powers of the heavenlies,
cannot be saved - i.e. the ones for whom there no longer remains any payment for their sins (so they must die).

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I don’t know, I personally don’t believe this is considered blasphemy against the Holy Spirit or the unforgivable sin. I believe what is being said here is that the author wants to move forward in his teachings and that because he has already covered the subjects of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, instructions about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. I think the point the author is trying to convey is that there is no more evidence we can present to someone who has been enlightened and partaken of the Holy Spirit that will bring them back to repentance. They already know the teachings of the gospel and have the conviction of the Holy Spirit within them. So there’s nothing further we can do for such an individual to bring them back to repentance.
 
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I think I am on to something with you, you deprecate the new birth being born of God as basically worthless regarding eternal salvation, and put the entire burden on man to stay in a 'correct relationship' with God.
That sums up synergism.
 
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renniks

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That sums up synergism.
Of course the entire burden is not on man. God does all the work of saving, but he will not force us to remain in the Vine. Really, the only thing that is "on man" is that he must have a willingness to rest on God instead of his own strength.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think I am on to something with you, you deprecate the new birth being born of God as basically worthless regarding eternal salvation, and put the entire burden on man to stay in a 'correct relationship' with God.

I see constant messages in the Bible urging children of God who are saved of the consequences of turning back to their sinful nature. I see verses that include everyone , both believers and unbelievers that will not inherit the kingdom of God who live sinful lifestyles. I see verses saying that salvation is contingent upon standing firm and steadfast in the faith of the gospel. Here’s a few examples of scriptures that include everyone.

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.


John 15:1-6


When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21


Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


Matthew 3:10


Nothing evil will be allowed to enter, nor anyone who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty—but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.


Revelation 21:27

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”


Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬

the thing about Ephesians 5 is Paul is speaking to Children of God who are saved according to Ephesians 2.

A faithful, sensible servant is one to whom the master can give the responsibility of managing his other household servants and feeding them. If the master returns and finds that the servant has done a good job, there will be a reward. I tell you the truth, the master will put that servant in charge of all he owns. But what if the servant is evil and thinks, ‘My master won’t be back for a while,’ and he begins beating the other servants, partying, and getting drunk? The master will return unannounced and unexpected, and he will cut the servant to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matthew 24:45-51 The servant of the master is referring to a servant of God.

All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be my children. “But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.


Revelation 21:7-8

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”


‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭

“By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6

“The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, "Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house and proclaim there this word and say, 'Hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah, who enter by these gates to worship the LORD!'" Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, "Amend your ways and your deeds, and I will let you dwell in this place. Do not trust in deceptive words, saying, 'This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD.' For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever. "Behold, you are trusting in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, and commit adultery and swear falsely, and offer sacrifices to Baal and walk after other gods that you have not known, then come and stand before Me in this house, which is called by My name, and say, 'We are delivered!'-that you may do all these abominations? Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers in your sight? Behold, I, even I, have seen it, " declares the LORD.”

JEREMIAH 7:1-11
 
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BNR32FAN

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I think I am on to something with you, you deprecate the new birth being born of God as basically worthless regarding eternal salvation, and put the entire burden on man to stay in a 'correct relationship' with God.

God will only enable us to persevere if we abide in Christ. If we choose to turn back to our sinful nature He will not take over control and not allow us to do it. That’s just ridiculous. We never lose our free will both to choose to serve God or to serve satan.

“What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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I think I am on to something with you, you deprecate the new birth being born of God as basically worthless regarding eternal salvation, and put the entire burden on man to stay in a 'correct relationship' with God.

You seem frustrated that I provided the definition of the word abide. I’m sorry I was just trying to help.
 
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sdowney717

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You seem frustrated that I provided the definition of the word abide. I’m sorry I was just trying to help.
Not frustrated at all. I am sorry you cant understand spiritual things. Your into performance for approval from God. Your very much of an old testament mindset regarding keeping the law, doing good and being good, IMO.
 
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sdowney717

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Only the elect ever obtain salvation both of the Jews and of the gentiles.
Its God's grace, not our works, not our performance. God reserves for Himself, for His own purposes those that He will save. And the rest were blinded and are blinded and remain blinded to the gospel of His grace.

Romans 11 New King James Version (NKJV)
Israel’s Rejection Not Total
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Not all who are Israel are of Israel, and the saved gentiles are of the true Israel of God, in the NC.
God never casts away His people whom He foreknew, He saves them, all of them. He gives them eternal life and they will never perish.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Not frustrated at all. I am sorry you cant understand spiritual things. Your into performance for approval from God. Your very much of an old testament mindset regarding keeping the law, doing good and being good, IMO.

Can we please get back to our original discussion of John 15? I’m very eager to understand how a person cannot fail to abide in Christ. What is Jesus actually saying in John 15:6? Or perhaps John 15:2 that explain that The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit.

I’m sorry but you must forgive me for believing what the church has taught since the very beginning of Christianity over the reformed theology which the church has refuted for the past 500 years, also of which there are no early church writings to support.
 
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sdowney717

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Can we please get back to our original discussion of John 15? I’m very eager to understand how a person cannot fail to abide in Christ. What is Jesus actually saying in John 15:6? Or perhaps John 15:2 that explain that The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit.

I’m sorry but you must forgive me for believing what the church has taught since the very beginning of Christianity over the reformed theology which the church has refuted for the past 500 years, also of which there are no early church writings to support.
Actually no your not eager to learn, your simply eager to change everyone to your way of thinking.
 
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