Could Both Arminianism and Calvinism be Wrong?

JIMINZ

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Regeneration is a Calvinistic word meant to indicate a person has partially recovered from Total Depravity.

I'm not a Calvinist, and I'm not defending Calvinism.

If God requires us to be Yea, or Nay, Hot or Cold, then why would you believe that He would act towards us in a fashion which would be PARTIALLY anything?

It's not a Biblical term.

Then what are these two Non-Biblical terms doing in my Bible?

Mat. 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Tit. 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The word Regeneration in the Bible, does not indicate anything as partial in relation to the Believer .

So the implication is clear; since death came as a result of sin, then life comes as a result of righteousness. Once we obtain righteousness, a part of us - the righteous inner man - is alive again.

Isn't what you have just so succinctly described, "The Regeneration"

The RE-Birth of the Believer,
Eph 4:22-24
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
 
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Gup20

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I'm not a Calvinist, and I'm not defending Calvinism.

If God requires us to be Yea, or Nay, Hot or Cold, then why would you believe that He would act towards us in a fashion which would be PARTIALLY anything?
I am not a Calvinist either, but I was trying to fairly express their belief. I said partial because Calvinists believe the regeneration is spiritual and not physical (Calvinists will still die the normal human death, for example).

Then what are these two Non-Biblical terms doing in my Bible?

Mat. 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Tit. 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The word Regeneration in the Bible, does not indicate anything as partial in relation to the Believer .
The first passage doesn't seem to indicate individual spiritual resurrection, but rather physical, so it is not salient to “the election.” It is ambiguous about what exactly is regenerated.

Similarly, the Titus passage, while seemingly about individual salvation (which no one quotes when explaining how salvation works) is also short on details to define exactly what is meant by regeneration, so the reader in both cases is left to fill in the missing definition with their own beliefs. None of the many passages which explain & define how salvation actually works use or define the term “regeneration.”

Isn't what you have just so succinctly described, "The Regeneration"

The RE-Birth of the Believer,
Eph 4:22-24
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
I don’t know, is it? We can’t definitively use the term because the Bible uses it randomly in 2 verses which do nothing to define the term. What’s clear are that none of the Copious amounts of definitive statements in scripture defining how salvation works use the term.

In this ambiguity is where Calvin & Arminius’ theologies thrive.
 
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JIMINZ

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I am not a Calvinist either, but I was trying to fairly express their belief. I said partial because Calvinists believe the regeneration is spiritual and not physical (Calvinists will still die the normal human death, for example).

What you think they believe is irrelevant to our conversation.

The first passage doesn't seem to indicate individual spiritual resurrection, but rather physical, so it is not salient to “the election.” It is ambiguous about what exactly is regenerated.

Granted to me, it does speak of the end time Regeneration of mankind.

Who are the election, and why is it not Salient to them, were not the Disciples of the Election?


Similarly, the Titus passage, while seemingly about individual salvation (which no one quotes when explaining how salvation works) is also short on details to define exactly what is meant by regeneration, so the reader in both cases is left to fill in the missing definition with their own beliefs. None of the many passages which explain & define how salvation actually works use or define the term “regeneration.”

First I would have to say, no one should ever "fill in the missing definition with their own beliefs", it should always come from the Greek or Hebrew.

REGENERATION:
GREEK
G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
(spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.

The use of the word in both instances, have the very same Definition, therefore it is not ambiguous as to the meaning, it is simply (Spiritual Rebirth)

This is one verse which could be used, albeit Regeneration is not used, one understands what is being spoken of by use of a few other verses.

Mar. 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Rom 6:4-7
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What we see through these verses is, Baptism is the process by which Regeneration takes place, by the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Tit. 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 3:3-7
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 
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Gup20

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What you think they believe is irrelevant to our conversation.



Granted to me, it does speak of the end time Regeneration of mankind.

Who are the election, and why is it not Salient to them, were not the Disciples of the Election?




First I would have to say, no one should ever "fill in the missing definition with their own beliefs", it should always come from the Greek or Hebrew.

REGENERATION:
GREEK
G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
(spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.

The use of the word in both instances, have the very same Definition, therefore it is not ambiguous as to the meaning, it is simply (Spiritual Rebirth)

This is one verse which could be used, albeit Regeneration is not used, one understands what is being spoken of by use of a few other verses.

Mar. 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Rom 6:4-7
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

What we see through these verses is, Baptism is the process by which Regeneration takes place, by the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Tit. 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 3:3-7
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
All you’ve done here is make a case that the term “born again” is much more heavily used and defined than the term “regeneration” which has 2 ambiguously undefined usages. Then, wouldn’t it be prudent to use the term “re-birth” rather than “regeneration?” One has to ask why Calvinists prefer the ambiguous term to the clearly defined one? Is it because they wish to read their own philosophy into the scripture and the ambiguous term allows them to do that?
 
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JIMINZ

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All you’ve done here is make a case that the term “born again” is much more heavily used and defined than the term “regeneration” which has 2 ambiguously undefined usages. Then, wouldn’t it be prudent to use the term “re-birth” rather than “regeneration?” One has to ask why Calvinists prefer the ambiguous term to the clearly defined one? Is it because they wish to read their own philosophy into the scripture and the ambiguous term allows them to do that?

All I did was to give you the other terms used for "The Regeneration" if you are unable to accept them as such, there isn't anything else I can say.

I thought by supplying all of the pertinent terms used, and thereby using them in connection with one another, you would be able to grasp the meaning of the one under discussion.

The Believer upon the occasion of his Baptism receives the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, at which time the Old Man (The Flesh) dies with Christ in Crucifixion, is then raised again with Christ in Resurrection, and he is Born Again (RE-Generated) unto Newness of Life in the Spirit.

He becomes Regenerated, Reborn, Born Again, they are all one in the same.

Gal 4:1-7
1) Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2) But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The Adoption is only able to take place during the Believers Baptism, which is the time of Re-Generation, the becoming New of all things pertaining to a life in the Spirit.
 
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Gup20

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All I did was to give you the other terms used for "The Regeneration" if you are unable to accept them as such, there isn't anything else I can say.

I thought by supplying all of the pertinent terms used, and thereby using them in connection with one another, you would be able to grasp the meaning of the one under discussion.

You gave all the more common terms (saved, born again, re-birth, etc). But the 2 passages that use the term regeneration don’t define the term in conjunction with more common terms, so associating them as such is an assumption.

All I’m saying is why use the terms that require assumptions when so many other terms that do not require assumption are available.

The Believer upon the occasion of his Baptism receives the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit, at which time the Old Man (The Flesh) dies with Christ in Crucifixion, is then raised again with Christ in Resurrection, and he is Born Again (RE-Generated) unto Newness of Life in the Spirit.

He becomes Regenerated, Reborn, Born Again, they are all one in the same.
If I asked you to show me the passages which used reborn, or born again and “regenerated” interchangeably, could you do so, or do you have to assume it means that because the term regeneration is undefined in the passages they are used? How do you know, for example, if the term means spiritual rebirth or physical rebirth? How do you know if it means a pledge to resurrect or the accomplishment of having been resurrected? Is it a finished process, an in-process process, or a future process? It’s impossible to know with the term “regeneration” because it’s too undefined. We can answer those questions with “indwelling” of the Holy Spirit or with the term “born again.”

Gal 4:1-7
1) Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2) But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

The Adoption is only able to take place during the Believers Baptism, which is the time of Re-Generation, the becoming New of all things pertaining to a life in the Spirit.
I don’t see the term “baptism” in this passage... can you show me more specifically where Gal 4:1-7 mentions baptism?

Mind you, the entire focus of Galatians 3-4 is Abraham’s faith experience and the origination of the covenant of faith of believing the gospel and being made righteous for that faith. So if you are going to claim it refers to “believer’s baptism” you have to show how this was true in Abraham.
 
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JIMINZ

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I don’t see the term “baptism” in this passage... can you show me more specifically where Gal 4:1-7 mentions baptism?

Mind you, the entire focus of Galatians 3-4 is Abraham’s faith experience and the origination of the covenant of faith of believing the gospel and being made righteous for that faith. So if you are going to claim it refers to “believer’s baptism” you have to show how this was true in Abraham.

Did you not read the last paragraph, The Galatians verses were used in order to demonstrate Adoption.

"The Adoption is only able to take place during the Believers Baptism, which is the time of Re-Generation, the becoming New of all things pertaining to a life in the Spirit."

Adoption does not take place when one Believes, but only through the Physical Process of Baptism, where the Believer Physically identifies with Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection, the Believer at that time is RE-Generated unto Newness of Life through the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

We were born a physical body, with a Human Nature, (The Old Man) we are Reborn, Born Again, Regenerated, a physical body, with a with a New Nature
(A Spiritual Nature) The Nature of Christ, (The New Creation) through the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This does not mean our Physical Bodies cease to exist, it means we have died unto the Flesh (The Old Man), it is our Human Nature which has been Replaced with the Holy Spirit, this is what is being (RE-Generated).

The difference being.
Rom. 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Where we.

2 Cor. 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Righteousness has been counted unto Abraham because of Belief, whereas we on the other hand, are not only Righteous because of Belief the same as Righteous Abraham, but we, we have ("BECOME") The Righteousness of God in Christ, this is something which Abraham did not acheive because the Sacrifice had not yet been provided for mankind.

REGENERATION:
GREEK
G3824
παλιγγενεσία
paliggenesia
pal-ing-ghen-es-ee'-ah
(spiritual) rebirth (the state or the act), that is, (figuratively) spiritual renovation; specifically Messianic restoration: - regeneration.

2 Cor. 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become NEW!

NEW:
G3501
νέος, νεώτερος
neos neōteros
neh'-os, neh-o'-ter-os
A primary word, including the comparative (second form); “new”, that is, (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively regenerate: - new, young.
 
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JIMINZ

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How do you know, for example, if the term means spiritual rebirth or physical rebirth?

We know, when anyone in the New Testament speaks of (The New Birth or Re-birth) they are speaking of The Spiritual Re-Birth because Nicodemus asked Jesus a specific question concerning this .

Joh 3:3-6
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This then is the description on how the the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer through Baptism, having been Born Again we have been RE-Generated.

Therefore The Regeneration cannot be misunderstood to mean anything other than The Spiritual Re-Birth, and never to mistaken or assumed to be, a Physical Re-Birth because that is a Physical impossibility.
 
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Gup20

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Did you not read the last paragraph, The Galatians verses were used in order to demonstrate Adoption.

"The Adoption is only able to take place during the Believers Baptism, which is the time of Re-Generation, the becoming New of all things pertaining to a life in the Spirit."

Adoption does not take place when one believes, but only through the Physical Process of Baptism, where the Believer Physically identifies with Christ's Crucifixion and Resurrection, the Believer at that time is RE-Generated unto Newness of Life through the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
I agree with Adoption, and that can be seen in Galatians 4:1-7. However, I cannot see "baptism" or "believers baptism" referenced in that passage. That is a connection to you and your perceptions, but it is not in the text itself.

However, lets carry this allegorical implication forward and see what else Galatians 4 says about Adoption:

Gal 4:22-28 NASB
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.

So the "adopted" children (the children of the desolate mother) are represented in the Abrahamic covenant by the birth of Isaac. What say the scriptures regarding righteousness:

Rom 4:8-13 NASB
8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

So we see here that Abraham was credited as righteous before being circumcised. This happened a year before Isaac was born. I will shortly present passages showing that 'circumcision' represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but what you need to realize at this point is that Abraham was "saved" or "made righteous" or "brought to life" prior to circumcision and prior to adoption (represented by the birth of Isaac).

Eph 1:13-14 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

Col 2:11 NASB
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Deu 30:6 NASB
6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.

Rom 2:28-29 NASB
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.​

So the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is "circumcision of the heart" and is foreshadowed by circumcision of the flesh in the Abrahamic covenant of faith. So when Romans 4 says that Abraham was made righteous while uncircumcised, we can infer then that in the covenant of faith, faith precedes indwelling and adoption.


We know, when anyone in the New Testament speaks of (The New Birth or Re-birth) they are speaking of The Spiritual Re-Birth because Nicodemus asked Jesus a specific question concerning this .

Joh 3:3-6
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

This then is the description on how the the Holy Spirit indwells the Believer through Baptism, having been Born Again we have been RE-Generated.

Therefore The Regeneration cannot be misunderstood to mean anything other than The Spiritual Re-Birth, and never to mistaken or assumed to be, a Physical Re-Birth because that is a Physical impossibility.

Mat 19:28 NASB
28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

Oddly, one of the regeneration passages contradicts your statements. Spirit's that have no bodies have no need or ability to sit. Jesus on his Throne judging the 12 tribes comes post-physical resurrection... so in this case I would surmise that the regeneration talked about in this passage must be physical.

1Co 15:35-37, 42, 44, 51-52 NASB
35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. ... 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable [body,] it is raised an imperishable [body;] ... 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual [body.] ... 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.​

So like a seed goes into the ground and comes out of the ground in a different form (as a plant), a person's body goes into death in one form and comes out of death in another form. It is not that we will not have a body... we will have a body, but it will be a transformed or changed body. The Mat 19:28 passage is post-trumpet, so we will already have our new, immortal bodies. Like Ephesians 1:13-14 says, the Holy Spirit in us is a PLEDGE of the full inheritance (adopted children inherit)... not the full inheritance.
 
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