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Could Both Arminianism and Calvinism be Wrong?

Discussion in 'Soteriology DEBATE' started by xjohnson, Jul 21, 2018.

  1. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    The Canons of Dordt (the synod's response to the 5 Points of Arminianism) are very convincing to me that Arminianism is wrong and Calvinism is correct:

    https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort

    Please note that Calvinism was not invented by John Calvin, and Arminianism was not invented by James Armininius. It's not like either man sat down one day and said "I'm gonna create some theology in 5 points!"

    Instead, the 5 points of Arminianism came from Arminias' students as they presented some points of disagreement with the Dutch Reformed churches at the Synod of Dordt.

    The 5 points of Calvinism came about as a RESPONSE TO the 5 points of disagreement (the 5 Points of Arminianism) that the Arminians presented to the Synod of Dordt.

    So the only reason Calvinism today is known as 5 points is because it was originally a response to (and rejection of) the 5 points of Arminianism.
     
  2. xjohnson

    xjohnson New Member

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    Hi, Redleghunter -

    Thank you for responding.

    Repetition is king. How many times did you notice the phrases "in Him", "in Christ", "through Jesus Christ", and "in the Beloved One" in your quote? All of the goodies in Ephesians 1 and 2 that we enjoy are because of us being in Him and existing through Him. Outside of Him, there are no goodies other than the invitation to join Him. The answer to your question is nine (9) times. That's nine (9) times in the twelve (12) verses you quoted (which is 75%), and the rest of the chapter contains more references to these phrases. So, it begs the question: "how do we get in/through Him"?

    My perspective is that we are "in Him" when we believe in Him. We are "through Him" when we do what He said to do, and, consequently, Jesus and our Father manifest themselves to us. The basis for this is John 14; and John 15:

    John 14
    "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

    Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

    Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."


    John 15
    Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

    I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

    As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

    Again, because we are in Him, we experience all the Spiritual goodness described in Ephesians 1 and 2 and elsewhere. Being in Him is a conscious choice, and it becomes natural over time.

    To drive the point further, verse 3 does not say:
    • who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms
    Instead, verse 3 says:
    • who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms

    Again, verse 4 does not say:
    • He chose us before the foundation of the world
    Instead, verse 4 says:
    • He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

    Finally, verse 11 does not say:
    • We were also chosen as God’s own
    Instead, verse 11 says:
    • In Him we were also chosen as God’s own

    Again, we've been enjoying these goodies because we are in/through Him. And, yes, the good ol' Gentiles of yesteryear, who were never Isaiah-cursed as the Jews were, enjoyed the same gifts we Gentiles enjoy today because they were in/through Him as well (as opposed to in/through the law, I might add).
     
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  3. mineben256

    mineben256 New Member

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    Both Calvinism and Arminianism have a fundamental misunderstanding of election and predestination, and so both are fundamentally flawed, as their premises are wrong; I cannot believe either.

    In Scripture, no one is predestined or elected to be saved. Predestination refers to the saved person's guarantee of eternal life as laid out in Ephesians 1:3-14 and based on the condition laid out in Ephesians 2:8-9 and other places, that of faith in Jesus Christ informed by his gospel. In the New Testament, Christ is the Elect, not any one saved person. So, as believers enter the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27), they actually are grafted onto the promise of raising again just as Christ did (read 1 Cor. 15 to see how Christ's ressurection by necessity implies our own and vice versa). Only after that, they are predestined for the future inheritance and glorification.

    Christ really did taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:9), and salvation is to everyone that believes (John 3, Romans 10). There is no way around the clear truth: Salvation is by grace through faith without the works of the law, is irrevocable once one receives it, and is offered to every man through Christ's death, burial and ressurection.
     
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  4. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Those Whom He Foreknew He Predestined
     
  5. mineben256

    mineben256 New Member

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    Skimming through the article; I came across what I was looking for: a false dilemma is presented by Dr. Piper in part 2 of the article. I reject this false premise that the only alternative of adding words to the text is accepting some alien concept of individual election to salvation.


    Tthe only alternative to adding "would believe on Jesus" is not adding a concept of individual election to salvation that is alien to Scripture. Read Romans 8, or at least from verse 16 on. Paul (or rather, the Holy Ghost through Paul) is very clearly discussing glorification; vss. 17-19, and vs. 23 (which interestingly demolishes the concept that adoption in a NT context always means salvation, contrary to popular belief) establish this most clearly.

    Now, let's closely examine vs. 29 itself.

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." King James Version

    Now, what does it say? For whom he did foreknow to what? That is a serious question. What did God foreknow here? Where can you show me that this foreknowledge is belief? This is where I diverge from both Calvinism and Arminianism.

    The only context clues are this: Paul is clearly discussing glorification and the final ressurection here. We are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son; this strongly suggests glorification, NOT regeneration. Remember how Adam was created in the image of God? Is not Christ God and man? Thus, I have reason to believe that the "foreknow" mentioned there isn't even talking about belief at all, and is only related to belief only indirectly by the nature of salvation being by grace through faith.

    All I need to do is cause reasonable doubt that foreknowledge is referring to an individual's belief/regeneration in order to put this verse well out of striking range of non-Calvinism. Remember that the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that Christ really didn't taste death for every man as plainly, unequivocally stated in Hebrews 2:9.

    Thus, I maintain my position as stated in my first post.
     
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  6. StillGods

    StillGods Well-Known Member

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    have only read the title but yes both have drawbacks. Traditionalism is quite good.
     
  7. StevenBelievin

    StevenBelievin Trust In God Supporter

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    Your problem is that Paul includes the Gentiles when he is talking about election in Romans 9.

    Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    According to a PhD scholar who is the world authority on the life and works of Augustine, and who has read the three volumes of the works of Arminius, he concludes that Arminius is more true to the Scripture than Calvin is concerning Predestination and Election. Where they differ is that Arminius believed that the person was predestined AFTER he chose for Christ, and Calvin believed that the person was predestined TO choose for Christ and that billions of God's created beings were created in order to spend eternity being tortured in hell.

    However, I have downloaded a pdf of volume 1 (500 pages) of Arminius' works, So when I have read it through myself, I will be able to give a more informed opinion.
     
  9. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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  10. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Even a little child should be able to understand that.
    M-Bob
     
  11. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    This should shed some light on the matter. There are two more parts if you wish to look them up and watch.
    M-Bob

     
  12. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I simply won't believe in a God who is such a monster that he would deliberately create people in order to send them to hell without an opportunity to choose for Christ. That is the Calvinist view, and Calvin pushed that view on people by force because he believed that his gospel was the only gospel and his church was the only true church. If that is the God you believe in, then you can stick that God where the sun don't shine!
     
  13. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Never seen someone speak regarding God like that.
    M-Bob
     
  14. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    True church history.
    Although some will stay with their own thoughts. Thinking they might be a little smarter? These are some of the best bible preachers and teachers of our times.

    Course some may wish to lean away from the Bible? As the Bible States nothing new Under the Sun.
    M-Bob

     
  15. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Three things in parallel.

    Catholicism states, we have the truth according to our interpretation of Scripture, handed down to us by the Church Fathers. if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must be Catholic, not questioning what the Church teaches, just adhering to the Doctrines set forth by her.

    Calvinism not being a Church but a system of belief states, we have the truth according to our interpretation of Scripture, handed down to us by Calvin himself and the Church fathers, if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must be a Calvinist, not questioning what the Church teaches, just adhering to the Doctrines set forth by her.

    Arminianism not being a Church but a system of belief not that much different than Calvinism states, we have the truth according to our interpretation of Scripture, handed down to us by Arminius himself and Church Fathers. if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must follow this line of belief, not questioning what Arminianism teaches, just adhering to the Doctrines set forth within it's Theology.

    I really do not see a difference between any one of the three, sure they all profess to have the truth, but their truth is more true than any other, therefore their belief system is the one to be followed or you are doomed.

    I'm sorry, but I see to many flaws in all three to adhere to any one of them.
    All three demand unquestioning belief in the system as set forth.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
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  16. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    Clarification question.

    Who then are the (Elect, Election) as spoken of in Scripture, and why are they so called?

    1 Pet. 1:2
    Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    Rom. 11:7
    What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
     
  17. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    False
    M-Bob
     
  18. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Once again that would be false. I have many Armenian friends who I will see in Heaven someday. Most of the so-called calvinist which I prefer to call the Reformed Church members came out of Armenian churches. We still love our brothers and sisters. It's too bad people throw out statements such as that.

    Note a so-called Armenian Church rents space to our Reformed Church. Yes, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

    M-Bob
     
  19. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    To date we have attended four different reformed churches and none of them think their way is the only way.

    Sometimes referred to as the Frozen Chosen. Very very very few believe that. That would be pretty puffed-up in oneself.

    M-Bob
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2019
  20. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Straight from the Bible.
    That's the way I like it.
    M-Bob
     
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