Could Both Arminianism and Calvinism be Wrong?

Skala

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The Canons of Dordt (the synod's response to the 5 Points of Arminianism) are very convincing to me that Arminianism is wrong and Calvinism is correct:

https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort

Please note that Calvinism was not invented by John Calvin, and Arminianism was not invented by James Armininius. It's not like either man sat down one day and said "I'm gonna create some theology in 5 points!"

Instead, the 5 points of Arminianism came from Arminias' students as they presented some points of disagreement with the Dutch Reformed churches at the Synod of Dordt.

The 5 points of Calvinism came about as a RESPONSE TO the 5 points of disagreement (the 5 Points of Arminianism) that the Arminians presented to the Synod of Dordt.

So the only reason Calvinism today is known as 5 points is because it was originally a response to (and rejection of) the 5 points of Arminianism.
 
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xjohnson

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Hi, Redleghunter -

Thank you for responding.

Repetition is king. How many times did you notice the phrases "in Him", "in Christ", "through Jesus Christ", and "in the Beloved One" in your quote? All of the goodies in Ephesians 1 and 2 that we enjoy are because of us being in Him and existing through Him. Outside of Him, there are no goodies other than the invitation to join Him. The answer to your question is nine (9) times. That's nine (9) times in the twelve (12) verses you quoted (which is 75%), and the rest of the chapter contains more references to these phrases. So, it begs the question: "how do we get in/through Him"?

My perspective is that we are "in Him" when we believe in Him. We are "through Him" when we do what He said to do, and, consequently, Jesus and our Father manifest themselves to us. The basis for this is John 14; and John 15:

John 14
"A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, “Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?”

Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me."


John 15
Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Again, because we are in Him, we experience all the Spiritual goodness described in Ephesians 1 and 2 and elsewhere. Being in Him is a conscious choice, and it becomes natural over time.

To drive the point further, verse 3 does not say:
  • who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms
Instead, verse 3 says:
  • who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms

Again, verse 4 does not say:
  • He chose us before the foundation of the world
Instead, verse 4 says:
  • He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

Finally, verse 11 does not say:
  • We were also chosen as God’s own
Instead, verse 11 says:
  • In Him we were also chosen as God’s own

Again, we've been enjoying these goodies because we are in/through Him. And, yes, the good ol' Gentiles of yesteryear, who were never Isaiah-cursed as the Jews were, enjoyed the same gifts we Gentiles enjoy today because they were in/through Him as well (as opposed to in/through the law, I might add).
 
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mineben256

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Both Calvinism and Arminianism have a fundamental misunderstanding of election and predestination, and so both are fundamentally flawed, as their premises are wrong; I cannot believe either.

In Scripture, no one is predestined or elected to be saved. Predestination refers to the saved person's guarantee of eternal life as laid out in Ephesians 1:3-14 and based on the condition laid out in Ephesians 2:8-9 and other places, that of faith in Jesus Christ informed by his gospel. In the New Testament, Christ is the Elect, not any one saved person. So, as believers enter the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27), they actually are grafted onto the promise of raising again just as Christ did (read 1 Cor. 15 to see how Christ's ressurection by necessity implies our own and vice versa). Only after that, they are predestined for the future inheritance and glorification.

Christ really did taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:9), and salvation is to everyone that believes (John 3, Romans 10). There is no way around the clear truth: Salvation is by grace through faith without the works of the law, is irrevocable once one receives it, and is offered to every man through Christ's death, burial and ressurection.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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In Scripture, no one is predestined or elected to be saved. Predestination refers to the saved person's guarantee of eternal life as laid out in Ephesians 1:3-14 and based on the condition laid out in Ephesians 2:8-9 and other places, that of faith in Jesus Christ informed by his gospel. In the New Testament, Christ is the Elect, not any one saved person. So, as believers enter the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27), they actually are grafted onto the promise of raising again just as Christ did (read 1 Cor. 15 to see how Christ's ressurection by necessity implies our own and vice versa). Only after that, they are predestined for the future inheritance and glorification.

Christ really did taste death for every man (Hebrews 2:9), and salvation is to everyone that believes (John 3, Romans 10). There is no way around the clear truth: Salvation is by grace through faith without the works of the law, is irrevocable once one receives it, and is offered to every man through Christ's death, burial and ressurection.

Those Whom He Foreknew He Predestined
 
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mineben256

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Skimming through the article; I came across what I was looking for: a false dilemma is presented by Dr. Piper in part 2 of the article. I reject this false premise that the only alternative of adding words to the text is accepting some alien concept of individual election to salvation.


Tthe only alternative to adding "would believe on Jesus" is not adding a concept of individual election to salvation that is alien to Scripture. Read Romans 8, or at least from verse 16 on. Paul (or rather, the Holy Ghost through Paul) is very clearly discussing glorification; vss. 17-19, and vs. 23 (which interestingly demolishes the concept that adoption in a NT context always means salvation, contrary to popular belief) establish this most clearly.

Now, let's closely examine vs. 29 itself.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." King James Version

Now, what does it say? For whom he did foreknow to what? That is a serious question. What did God foreknow here? Where can you show me that this foreknowledge is belief? This is where I diverge from both Calvinism and Arminianism.

The only context clues are this: Paul is clearly discussing glorification and the final ressurection here. We are predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son; this strongly suggests glorification, NOT regeneration. Remember how Adam was created in the image of God? Is not Christ God and man? Thus, I have reason to believe that the "foreknow" mentioned there isn't even talking about belief at all, and is only related to belief only indirectly by the nature of salvation being by grace through faith.

All I need to do is cause reasonable doubt that foreknowledge is referring to an individual's belief/regeneration in order to put this verse well out of striking range of non-Calvinism. Remember that the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that Christ really didn't taste death for every man as plainly, unequivocally stated in Hebrews 2:9.

Thus, I maintain my position as stated in my first post.
 
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StevenBelievin

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I'd like to share my thoughts with all of you and get your response to it. Thanks in advance.

Both Arminianism and Calvinism are defective in explaining the salvation process. These theological traditions neither recognize nor address the role Isaiah’s curse had in producing significant differences in the way Jews and Gentiles responded to the Gospel as overwhelmingly demonstrated in Scripture. Consequently, both of these traditions are wrong in that their explanations of salvation are too simple in light of Scripture.


A Simple Salvation Process for All

The salvation process is quite simple:

If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:9-13).​

Notice in Romans 11:5-10, however, the prerequisite required for Jews to follow this salvation process: election. Scripture never describes Gentiles as having this prerequisite, and the reason for this is because the Jews were handicapped by a curse that prevented them from understanding the Gospel.

Isaiah's Curse

The Jews were cursed through Isaiah, and this curse formed the basis for their peculiar path to salvation:

And He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand;
Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

“Make the heart of this people dull,
And their ears heavy,
And shut their eyes;
Lest they see with their eyes,
And hear with their ears,
And understand with their heart,
And return and be healed” (Isaiah 6:9-10).​

The above curse was quoted by Jesus when describing the Jewish condition to His disciples in Matthew 13:10-17, and the curse significantly impacted the way in which Jesus communicated to the Jews: in parables only. In addition, the same curse was quoted by Paul when contrasting the Jewish and Gentile responses to the Gospel in Acts 28:17-29. Consequently, the curse rendered all Jews as damned and bereft of salvation unless God chose to break the curse on those Jews He chose for salvation, per Romans 11:5-10. Even the prophets were blinded, according to Isaiah 29:10. Fortunately, the curse had an expiration date (Isaiah 6:11-13) and expired upon the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.

The Electoral Process that Breaks Isaiah’s Curse on the Jews

In order for Isaiah’s curse on the Jews to be broken so they could be saved, God chose (or, elected) which of the Jews to save:

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not … at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace … What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded (Romans 11:1-7).​

In the above passage we find that all Jews were blinded from salvation and some Jews were elected unto salvation with those who were elected as comprising a remnant. This “blinding and election” action was directed toward Jews and not the Gentiles: “Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded”. The efficacy of the blinding was based on Isaiah’s curse on the Jews: “Go and tell this people … Keep on seeing, but do not perceive … and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes ...”.

In addition, “election” is a process that had been going on throughout the course of Jewish history as described in Romans 9:6-13. It’s an election that was still in effect in Paul’s day as described in Romans 11:5 and chronicled by Lydia’s conversion in Acts 16:13-15. But since the curse has expired, the electoral process for Jews has been abandoned (Isaiah 29:17-24).

Significant Differences Between How Jews and Gentiles Respond to the Gospel

In light of Isaiah’s curse on the Jews and the lack of any such curse placed on the Gentiles, one would naturally expect a significant difference in the way Jews and Gentiles responded to the Gospel; and this is exactly what one finds in Scripture. The following Scriptural references demonstrate this difference:
  • Acts 13:42-52
  • Acts 17:1-9
  • Acts 18:5-6
  • Acts 22:17-21
  • Acts 28:17-29
  • Romans 9:30-33
  • Romans 11:7-10
  • Romans 11:25
The above-referenced Scriptures combined with Isaiah’s curse sufficiently establish the significant difference between the way in which Jews and Gentiles responded to the Gospel and the reason for the different responses between the two groups. And it is at this point that the fundamental flaw inherent in both theological traditions expresses itself: a complete disregard for the Jewish handicap necessitating God’s direct involvement in Jewish salvation, an involvement completely absent in Gentile salvation. As a consequence, Calvinists erroneously attribute election in every salvation instance, and Arminians attribute free will in every salvation instance; and both traditions are wrong.

Conclusion

In conclusion, the salvation process described in Scripture is more nuanced than either of the descriptions proffered by Arminianism and Calvinism. Consequently, both traditions are inharmonious with Scripture and, thus, defective. A candid review of God’s word reveals that a prerequisite for salvation existed for Jews prior to the expiration of Isaiah’s curse, and this prerequisite was discontinued after Isaiah’s curse expired (namely in AD 70). Therefore, Jews were elected for salvation prior to the curse’s expiration and were given free will in choosing salvation after the curse’s expiration. Gentiles have never had this experience. Instead, Gentiles have always enjoyed free will in their salvation experience.

Interestingly, Arminianism describes the Gentile experience at all times and describes the Jewish experience after AD 70. Calvinism describes the Jewish experience prior to AD 70 only. Because both traditions profess to describe the process of salvation for all people at all times, they are both wrong.

Your problem is that Paul includes the Gentiles when he is talking about election in Romans 9.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
 
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The Canons of Dordt (the synod's response to the 5 Points of Arminianism) are very convincing to me that Arminianism is wrong and Calvinism is correct:

Canons of Dort

Please note that Calvinism was not invented by John Calvin, and Arminianism was not invented by James Armininius. It's not like either man sat down one day and said "I'm gonna create some theology in 5 points!"

Instead, the 5 points of Arminianism came from Arminias' students as they presented some points of disagreement with the Dutch Reformed churches at the Synod of Dordt.

The 5 points of Calvinism came about as a RESPONSE TO the 5 points of disagreement (the 5 Points of Arminianism) that the Arminians presented to the Synod of Dordt.

So the only reason Calvinism today is known as 5 points is because it was originally a response to (and rejection of) the 5 points of Arminianism.
According to a PhD scholar who is the world authority on the life and works of Augustine, and who has read the three volumes of the works of Arminius, he concludes that Arminius is more true to the Scripture than Calvin is concerning Predestination and Election. Where they differ is that Arminius believed that the person was predestined AFTER he chose for Christ, and Calvin believed that the person was predestined TO choose for Christ and that billions of God's created beings were created in order to spend eternity being tortured in hell.

However, I have downloaded a pdf of volume 1 (500 pages) of Arminius' works, So when I have read it through myself, I will be able to give a more informed opinion.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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Mountainmanbob

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Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Even a little child should be able to understand that.
M-Bob
 
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Much deeper than that I think.
Proverbs 1:28 Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; they will earnestly seek me, but will not find me.

Don't forget regarding the important question Nicodemus asked.

Romans 8 and 9 I think affirms the calvinistic view.

God can make one for good and one for wrath.

M-Bob
I simply won't believe in a God who is such a monster that he would deliberately create people in order to send them to hell without an opportunity to choose for Christ. That is the Calvinist view, and Calvin pushed that view on people by force because he believed that his gospel was the only gospel and his church was the only true church. If that is the God you believe in, then you can stick that God where the sun don't shine!
 
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Mountainmanbob

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I simply won't believe in a God who is such a monster that he would deliberately create people in order to send them to hell without an opportunity to choose for Christ. That is the Calvinist view, and Calvin pushed that view on people by force because he believed that his gospel was the only gospel and his church was the only true church. If that is the God you believe in, then you can stick that God where the sun don't shine!

Never seen someone speak regarding God like that.
M-Bob
 
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Mountainmanbob

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True church history.
Although some will stay with their own thoughts. Thinking they might be a little smarter? These are some of the best bible preachers and teachers of our times.

Course some may wish to lean away from the Bible? As the Bible States nothing new Under the Sun.
M-Bob

 
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JIMINZ

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Three things in parallel.

Catholicism states, we have the truth according to our interpretation of Scripture, handed down to us by the Church Fathers. if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must be Catholic, not questioning what the Church teaches, just adhering to the Doctrines set forth by her.

Calvinism not being a Church but a system of belief states, we have the truth according to our interpretation of Scripture, handed down to us by Calvin himself and the Church fathers, if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must be a Calvinist, not questioning what the Church teaches, just adhering to the Doctrines set forth by her.

Arminianism not being a Church but a system of belief not that much different than Calvinism states, we have the truth according to our interpretation of Scripture, handed down to us by Arminius himself and Church Fathers. if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must follow this line of belief, not questioning what Arminianism teaches, just adhering to the Doctrines set forth within it's Theology.

I really do not see a difference between any one of the three, sure they all profess to have the truth, but their truth is more true than any other, therefore their belief system is the one to be followed or you are doomed.

I'm sorry, but I see to many flaws in all three to adhere to any one of them.
All three demand unquestioning belief in the system as set forth.
 
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Your problem is that Paul includes the Gentiles when he is talking about election in Romans 9.

Romans 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Clarification question.

Who then are the (Elect, Election) as spoken of in Scripture, and why are they so called?

1 Pet. 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rom. 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
 
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Mountainmanbob

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if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must be Catholic
if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must be a Calvinist
Arminianism not being a Church but a system of belief not that much different than Calvinism






states, we have the truth according to our interpretation of Scripture, handed down to us by Arminius himself and Church Fathers. if you want to be assured of your Salvation, you must follow this line of belief, not questioning what Arminianism teaches, just adhering to the Doctrines set forth within it's Theology.

I really do not see a difference between any one of the three, sure they all profess to have the truth, but their truth is more true than any other, therefore their belief system is the one to be followed or you are doomed.

I'm sorry, but I see to many flaws in all three to adhere to any one of them.
All three demand unquestioning belief in the system as set forth.

False
M-Bob
 
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Mountainmanbob

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therefore their belief system is the one to be followed or you are doomed.



I'm sorry, but I see to many flaws in all three to adhere to any one of them.
All three demand unquestioning belief in the system as set forth.

Once again that would be false. I have many Armenian friends who I will see in Heaven someday. Most of the so-called calvinist which I prefer to call the Reformed Church members came out of Armenian churches. We still love our brothers and sisters. It's too bad people throw out statements such as that.

Note a so-called Armenian Church rents space to our Reformed Church. Yes, we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

M-Bob
 
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To date we have attended four different reformed churches and none of them think their way is the only way.

Sometimes referred to as the Frozen Chosen. Very very very few believe that. That would be pretty puffed-up in oneself.

M-Bob
 
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