Apparently the second page of my post got put in but not the first. I will post the first again.
"We attach different meanings to the term "requirement" then. For the Jews in GOK days, if they refused to get water baptized, they will be cut off from salvation. (Luke 7:29-30, Mark 16:16) That is what I mean by requirement. Its like if you are a Jew & you refused to be circumcised, you are cut off from the Jewish Nation. (Gen 17:9-14)
For you, its more of trying to obey what you think Christ is commanding you to do so. But I can understand where you are coming from since you don't distinguish between the GOK for the Jews & Paul's gospel for the Gentiles & lump them both together."
I need to make this clear to all reading these posts. The use of an abbreviation, GOK, appears misleading. GOK stands for the gospel of the kingdom & is being taught as 'another gospel' than the one that Paul preached.
What is not being said is that the GOK to a 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalist' is a grace plus works gospel (taught by Jesus & the 12) whereas another gospel, the gospel of Paul taught 'by grace through faith'. Yet Paul was taught the Gospel of Christ by Christ Himself! Christ would not contradict Himself or His purposed plan of salvation to reach the whole world with the one gospel.
Jesus is God! God does not teach more than one gospel nor that water baptism is necessary, a requirement for salvation for Jewish believers ONLY, like breathing is required to live.
Most all Christians from all the various branches teach ONE GOSPEL, the one taught by Jesus & the apostles & the prophets & it is the same gospel taught by Paul. There are not two gospels as even Paul himself said in Galatians 1.
This is dangerous teaching & Scripture says we are to warn others of those teaching more than one gospel. Paul states that this is so dangerous that those who persist in teaching more than one gospel are to be accursed! One can not get any plainer nor more serious than that.
This 'Mid-Acts Dispensationalim' teaching is a recent teaching that emerged in the the 1800's & is not the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Here is a good website that shows what they teach & how they respond when corrected.
Why Be Concerned With Mid Acts Dispensationalism?
Continuing on, Peter never mentioned water baptism as necessary & required by your definition--for Jewish believers to be saved but is the same gospel & the same message for both Jewish believers & Gentile believers to believe in order to be saved.
Acts 15:7-11 Men & brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice AMONG US, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear THE WORD OF THE GOSPEL & BELIEVE. 8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as HE DID UNTO US; 9And put NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THEM, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why TEMPT YE GOD, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11But WE BELIEVE THAT THROUGH THE GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WE SHALL BE SAVED, EVEN AS THEY.
The Apostle Peter did NOT ADD that it was NECESSARY & REQUIRED that Jewish believers MUST be water baptized to be saved. He taught that there is one gospel message, the same message to Jewish believer as to Gentile believers: one must believe by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There is to be NO DISTINCTION concerning how one is saved, between Jewish believers & Gentile believers.
And to make the point even stronger, even the sect of the Pharisees, WHICH BELIEVED, did NOT add, as Jewish believers, the absolute necessity the absolute requirement that the Gentile believers MUST BE WATER BAPTIZED in order to be saved. It isn't taught in Scripture.
The isolated quoting of Mark 16:16 for example of losing one's salvation if not water baptized, ignores the last half of the verse & also the context in which it is found!
Mark 16:14-20 Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat & upbraided them with their unbelief & hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen Him after He was risen. 15And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world & preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth & is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents & if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick & they shall recover. Luke 24:50-53; Acts 1:6-11)
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into heaven & sat on the right hand of God. 20And they went forth & preached every where, the Lord working with them & confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
One will note that reading the full verse & in context does not teach that water baptism must be done to be saved but it does teach that one that is saved believes & is water baptized. The one that is damned is the one that does NOT BELIEVE. Scripture does not say & ADD the one that is damned is the one who does not believe AND is baptized.
As one can see, this poster believes in the ADDITION part above to Scripture & also that water baptism is NOT necessary for believers today to PRACTICE in light of Jesus' command to do so--because it is supposedly a different gospel than the one preached by Paul.
Also in context, one sees that as the gospel was being preached to every creature by all the apostles & all the disciples (whole book of Acts, Romans 16, etc.), the whole time 'the Lord was working with them & CONFIRMING THE WORD', this same one gospel message to be preached to every creature. It hasn't passed away. It is still being proclaimed: 'Repent & believe the gospel of the kingdom.' (Mark 1) Jesus again did NOT say, Repent, believe AND GET WATER BAPTIZED...
Jesus did NOT say, "Unless you repent AND GET WATER BAPTIZED, you will all likewise perish (Luke 9), when He was supposedly preaching another gospel, which you keep trying to teach was necessary, IN THE GOSPELS, for Jewish believers to do in order to be saved, a supposed Scriptural 'requirement'--which it is not.
Jesus is continuing to build His church, the one church, the one flock, the one congregation, the one dwelling place of God in the Spirit, the one Body of Christ.
"If you don't accept this, we can agree to disagree, as discussing this will be way off topic. Btw, you cannot control what people choose to respond to, on an Internet discussion, so there is no need to get agitated. You also ignored my point about Luke 7:29-30 but I give you the freedom to do that as this is the Internet. =)"
First of all, it is not off topic because the very post says: "The real purpose of water baptism in the NT"
Our discussion is DIRECTLY on the discussion of this thread.
Second, you accuse me of trying to 'CONTROL' what people choose to respond to as if I am 'agitated.'
Those are bearing false witness concerning me. I am not agitated nor trying to control people's responses but concerned when someone is teaching more than one gospel, contrary to Scripture. This is a very serious error.
That is why I am warning others, when more than one gospel is being taught & that the very gospel of Jesus & the apostles & the prophets (they spoke of the one gospel as well) IS the foundation of the church, even today, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone, holding it all together--& as you state is a second gospel that has passed away.
Third, I did not ignore the passage. I did mention it but I deliberately did not address it in any detail--in your question in that post--to see how you would respond. And you responded like I thought you would.
And in Luke 7:29,30, it is again taken out of context & also ignores the rest of the testimony of Scripture, such as Acts 15. Let Scripture interpret Scripture. The best commentary on the Bible is the Bible.
Here is the isolated text you referred to, in its full context:
Luke 7:18-50 And the disciples of John shewed him of all these things. And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art Thou He that should come? or look we for another? When the men were come unto Him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto Thee, saying, Art thou He that should come? or look we for another?
21And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities & plagues, & of evil spirits & unto many that were blind He gave sight. 22Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way & tell John what things ye have seen & heard;
how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, TO THE POOR THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED. 23And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in Me. Matthew 11:7-19; Luke 1:5-25; Luke 16:14-17)
24And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind? 25But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled & live delicately, are in kings' courts. 26But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you & much more than a prophet.
27This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before Thy face, which shall prepare Thy way before Thee.
28For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29And all the people that heard him & the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30But the Pharisees & lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
31And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? And to what are they like? 32They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace & calling one to another & saying, We have piped unto you & ye have not danced; we have mourned to you & ye have not wept.
33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine & ye say, He hath a devil. 34The Son of man is come eating & drinking; & ye say, Behold a gluttonous man & a winebibber, a friend of publicans & sinners! 35But WISDOM is justified of all her children.
36And one of the Pharisees desired Him that He would eat with him. And He went into the Pharisee's house & sat down to meat. 37And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment & stood at His feet behind him weeping & began to wash his feet with tears & did wipe them with the hairs of her head & kissed His feet & anointed them with the ointment.
39Now when the Pharisee which had bidden Him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if He were a prophet, would have known who & what manner of woman this is that toucheth Him: for she is a sinner.
40And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on. There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed 500 pence & the other fifty.
42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered & said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.
44And he turned to the woman & said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears & wiped them with the hairs of her head. 45Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
46My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment. 47Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, ARE FORGIVEN; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little. 48And he said unto her, Thy sins ARE forgiven.
49And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? 50And he said to the woman, THY FAITH HAS SAVED THEE; GO IN PEACE.
In the context, the first section (vs 18-23) Jesus answers the disciples of John & in the context says that the gospel is preached to the poor. Nowhere there does Jesus, in preaching the gospel & healing Jewish people, state the baptism of John nor Jesus & His disciples baptizing people who believed in Jesus as NECESSARY AS A REQUIREMENT (according to your definition) TO BE SAVED FOR JEWISH PEOPLE.
In the next part of the context (vss 24-28), Jesus describes the ministry of John the Baptist, its purpose & who he is. Again no mention of John's baptism as necessary, as a requirement for Jewish believers in the Messiah--must do--in order to be saved. If it was vital for their salvation, Jesus would have taught so in both of these contextual sections.
John preached faith in the Messiah, predicted to come & now had come. He prepared the way of YHWH, which is Jesus, for the people to believe in Him. His was a message of preparation for the Jewish people, to prepare their hearts to believe in the Messiah for forgiveness & salvation.
Now we come to the isolated verses--you say--proves that John's baptism was necessary, was required, to save Jewish believers & without it, they could not be saved. But they are in a section of the context that goes from vs 29 to 35, so I will address this immediate context.
Simply reading what the Scripture actually SAYS, it says that all those in the crowd, including publicans, that had been baptized with the baptism of John JUSTIFIED GOD. It does NOT say, justified BY GOD, which directly has to do with salvation.
In CONTEXT, these Jewish people listening TO JESUS TEACHING about John & the purpose of his ministry. They were AGREEING with Jesus' teaching & thus JUSTIFIED GOD, that this ministry of John was confirming God's righteous message through him.
Again no mention--in this contextual section--is made that John's baptism or even Jesus' disciples water baptizing Jews is necessary, is a vital requirement, for them to be saved & without it they could not be saved.
And in vs 30, it DOES NOT SAY that the Pharisees & the lawyers were not saved because they rejected John's baptism, but that they rejected the counsel of God against themselves, that pointed to the Messiah being the the Savior of the world & that belief in Him saves them.
John the Baptist warned them at that time, when they refused to be baptized by him, of fleeing from the wrath of God that would come for rejecting his MESSAGE that prepared people to meet their God & turn to Him to be saved & forgiven of their sins.
They were ALREADY LOST, so it wasn't a matter of losing their salvation if they didn't receive John's baptism, because they had no salvation with which to begin!
And later in Matt 23, Jesus then warns them that after 2 years of ministering with John the Baptist gone, they were now at the point of not escaping the wrath of God coming. They had further progressed in their UNBELIEF.
And the final section of the context in Luke 7 is that of the woman who anointed Jesus' with the precious ointment, cleaning his feet with her tears & hair. This is an example of such humility that is rare. She apparently was one that was not of the Jewish crowd that had received John's baptism but someone new.
Again it has much to teach us but again, Jesus never required this Jewish woman to be water baptized in order to be saved. But what did save this Jewish woman IN THE GOSPELS? It was her great love & humility & her faith in Jesus that saved this woman. She loved Jesus. She served Jesus. She truly anointed Him as the Messiah & in anticipation of Christ's coming death. Her faith in Jesus is what saved her not any water baptism, as Jesus directly said.
And he said unto her, "Thy sins ARE forgiven." And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, "Thy faith has saved thee, GO in peace."
Jesus did not say, Go & be baptized in water. He said it was her faith that saved her & because of her love for Jesus, willing to receive the ridicule of others for what she did, her sins, which were many, WERE FORGIVEN by Christ Himself.