Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

bcbsr said:

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

Click to expand...

Salvation is: Justification + Sanctification = Glorification

God’s plan for our salvation has three parts in this order: Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.

Justification is God’s unconditional love for us through Jesus Christ’s death on the cross. Jesus paid our debts for us in full.

Sanctification is the reciprocation of our love toward Jesus. A life-long process.

Glorification is the ultimate reward we’ll receive when Jesus returns. We’ll be like Christ.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Justification: Each one of us have broken God’s Law. This is sin. The wages of sin is (eternal) death (cease to exist forever). This price is more than we can ever repay–it is impossible. Because of God the father’s unconditional love for the us, he gave his only begotten Son Jesus to pay for our debt of eternal death on the cross. This one time event was done by Jesus. Only Jesus is worthy to pay the price for each one of us because he never sinned. He has not broken God’s Law. Jesus (in the form of a man) died a physical death, giving His life willingly and was raised back to life; thus conquering eternal death.

Jesus, has a perfect record, and He stands in the court of divine judgement before God the Father in our stead, His righteousness is accepted in place of our unrighteousness. Hence we are justified before God, not because of our works but because of Jesus, whose righteousness becomes ours when we accept Him by faith.

There’s nothing we can add to our justification.
We are justified by Christ alone.

After justification is sanctification. It’s the reciprocation of our love toward God. We are sanctified with the help of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) that Jesus gives us. Sanctification means to set a part or to make holy. His Holy Spirit helps us in this process to become more like Christ. This is not a one time event; it’s a life long process (we stumble here and there). The process of sanctifying and purifying us (the works that Jesus does in the believer, and is not of ourselves) ... it is HIM working in us and through us. We are separated from the world. We are in the physical world but not of the world spiritually. Our mind (thinking) changes over time and therefore our actions also change. Our faith increases more and more as He faithfully works in us. Hebrews 12:2

The third stage in the plan of salvation is our glorification. We won’t be glorified until after Jesus returns. John writes of this in his first letter when he states that “when he shall appear we shall be like him (1 John 3:2). Paul refers to this stage frequently. For example: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality (1 Corinthians 15:53). He also refers to a time when “we shall all be changed in a moment in in a twinkling of an eye at the last trump” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52). Paul speaks further of the doctrine of glorification when he says in Romans 8:18, “For the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.” We receive glorified spiritual bodies. Receiving eternal life and being with Him forevermore. Those saved (justification + sanctification) will be glorified when Christ returns at the first resurrection.

Praise the Lord. Thank you Jesus for loving us so much. Amen.

GodsGrace101 said:

I agree.
The "am I doing enough" is silly and shows no understanding of our faith.

Thinking one could obey all the time shows no understanding of our nature.

My question should have been:
Are we required to obey God to stay saved....
I do believe the unrefutable answer is YES.

Click to expand...

I agree with the rewrite of your questions..

However, I do not believe that you can lose your salvation... if you were truly repentant.. and believe in Christ... you are saved... even if life or circumstances drag you back and you are struggling... or totally off track... The bible teaches that only God knows someones heart.

Some people, who are believers... and still believe, are not doing what other Christians would expect... but it's not what other Christians expect that determines salvation, is it?

In the end.... how can I do something to lose something that I did nothing to obtain.

I don't know of any free gift that I have ever been given that requires me to then keep doing something in order to keep it.

Yarddog said:

We are saved through faith but that doesn't mean that our salvation is free.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. Salvation is free. That's the whole point.. There is nothing a human can do that aids in paying the dept of their sin.

Sin is a crime that is only satisfied by the death sentence.
Christ paid that debt.. Not part of it.. not in conjunction with me doing something else...

And...He loves us so much and desires to spend eternity with us so greatly that all we have to do is believe in Him.

Otherwise.. it would just be another "bait and switch".

Albion said:

As some comment on the workings of God and human nature, I follow the point, but applying it to the Commandments like that doesn't work. Its just guesswork.

Click to expand...

I'm not completely understanding here. I corrected and added to my post right away-but apparently not soon enough! Anyway maybe you could reread it.

The Commandments are part of the Law, arguably the most basic and primary part. They are rightly fulfilled only to the extent that we love (Rom 13:10), and that kind of love is a gift that comes only to the extent that we're in communion with God and that communion comes only as a consequence of faith, which, itself, is a gift of grace. So while the Commandments are holy, spiritual, and good, they cannot justify regardless of how well perfectly obeyed, unless, to put it in another light, they're authentically fulfilled by the Greatest Commandments.

TheSeabass said:

For the disobedient lost sinner to be saved he must have obedience to the will of God.

The saving of Noah's house was by God's grace but obedience to God in building the ark was necessary to receive God's grace. Noah's obedience earned nothing but a necessary condition God required in order for Noah to receive God's grace.
Lack of obedience = Noah's house lost.

Romans 9:15 God has mercy upon whom He will and obedience to God has always been the basis of receiving mercy, grace from God.

Romans 2:8 one is either obeying the truth or obeying unrighteousness
Romans 6:16 one is either serving sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness.
Romans 6:17-18 obeyed from the heart, then freed from sin/justified.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 flaming fire upon those who "obey not" the gospel of Christ. (1 Peter 4:17)
Hebrews 5:9

Click to expand...

Noah lived before cross...

Also, what did the wives of Noah's sons do?

Noah had faith, built a boat, believed that it was going to rain.. it had never rained before that day...

We have faith.. We believe in Christ's work on the cross and put our faith in that.

Those that are working for their salvation do not have faith in the work on the cross being adequate. They believe that the cross is just "part" of the requirements. That...is not biblical.

Christ's death and resurrection was sufficient.

Hammster said:

If anything is required to receive it, it’s not grace.

Click to expand...

Grace forces no one to receive-and accept in any case. If it did then God would've been a lot greater God had he simply given it to Adam to begin with.

bcbsr said:

Oh you'd be amazed how Salvation-by-Works Christians on these forums misconstrue such verses.

Click to expand...

I agree with your comment however I am not amazed at all. I have being doing this for awhile now and I have pretty much heard all the goofy ideas that come from the hearts of men.

fhansen said:

Grace forces no one to receive-and accept in any case. If it did then God would've been a lot greater God had he simply given it to Adam to begin with.

Click to expand...

If you think about it, Adam and Eve did experience God's grace.

The moment they ate the forbidden fruit, God would have been justified to kill them on the spot.

Instead He gave them a 2nd chance and made skins of animals and gave them grace and they went on to live over 900 years.

Major1 said:

If you think about it, Adam and Eve did experience God's grace.

The moment they ate the forbidden fruit, God would have been justified to kill them on the spot.

Instead He gave them a 2nd chance and made skins of animals and gave them grace and they went on to live over 900 years.

Click to expand...

Oh, I agree completely; He never abandoned man; He had a plan of salvation, where He would work patiently with man over the course of centuries, in place already. But He did not force them to receive or maintain the grace of justification & salvation-or else they wouldn't have disobeyed to begin with and we'd be without all the drama: the pain, suffering, sin, and death that followed.

IOW, if God is going to save some without regard to their will anyway, why not just stock heaven with the elect to begin with, and stock hell with the rest if He wished to have some beings tormented eternally.

fhansen said:

Oh, I agree completely; He never abandoned man; He had a plan of salvation, where He would work patiently with man over the course of centuries, in place already. But He did not force them to receive or maintain the grace of justification & salvation-or else they wouldn't have disobeyed to begin with and we'd be without all the drama: the pain, suffering, sin, and death that followed.

IOW, if God is going to save some without regard to their will anyway, why not just stock heaven with the elect to begin with, and stock hell with the rest if He wished to have some beings tormented eternally.

Click to expand...

Now you are going into predestination.

The 1st thing to realize in predestination is that it is only for the BELIEVERS.

There is not a Single Scripture Which Says That God...…...
"Chose to Hate the Majority of Mankind and to Destine Them to Hell for Eternity" ?

There is also NO such thing as "Double Predestination".

If there were true, that would turn a loving God into a monster! This is a dangerous teaching and has led thousands of sincere believers to support this unbiblical teaching, a teaching which has caused many to totally reject the claims of Christianity.

Major1 said:

Now you are going into predestination.

The 1st thing to realize in predestination is that it is only for the BELIEVERS.

There is not a Single Scripture Which Says That God...…...
"Chose to Hate the Majority of Mankind and to Destine Them to Hell for Eternity" ?

There is also NO such thing as "Double Predestination".

If there were true, that would turn a loving God into a monster! This is a dangerous teaching and has led thousands of sincere believers to support this unbiblical teaching, a teaching which has caused many to totally reject the claims of Christianity.

Click to expand...

I agree with this. I would hold off myself on 100% assurance of salvation too, however, on knowing with perfect certainty whether or not one is numbered among the elect, whether or not one will persevere, whether or not one's name is written in the Book of Life. That's God's province in the absolute sense.

Anyway, the role of man's will/predestination is related to the question.

JacksBratt said:

Noah lived before cross...

Also, what did the wives of Noah's sons do?

Noah had faith, built a boat, believed that it was going to rain.. it had never rained before that day...

We have faith.. We believe in Christ's work on the cross and put our faith in that.

Those that are working for their salvation do not have faith in the work on the cross being adequate. They believe that the cross is just "part" of the requirements. That...is not biblical.

Christ's death and resurrection was sufficient.

Click to expand...

The point being overlooked is that Noah had to first be obedient in building the boat in order for his house to be saved. Obedience BEFORE salvation. NOT salvation (house saved from the flood) BEFORE obedience (building the boat).

Look at the order of Romans 6:17-18
1) were servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart
3) then freed from sin/justified

Again, just as with Noah, obedience BEFORE salvation/justification.

-57 said:

Ask God for help.

Click to expand...

Forgiveness and help.
Good.
When asking for help, you are, in effect, also asking forgiveness. Jesus said to pray all the time and also to ask forgiveness for when we sin.

John repeated this in 1 John chapter 1.

fhansen said:

I know. Can't we just get that God gives us a gift, of Himself, and then says, "Now come and follow Me, walk in my ways, abide in Me and I'll accomplish good things in you"? "As long as you're oriented towards Me and growing in my ways I can work in and with you; I can even teach and work with you when you slip back into sin as and if you then learn and repent and we continue to move you onwards and upwards in holiness overall."

And coupled with that understanding is for us to get over the notion that we have 100% security in salvation so long as we believe, or even just believed at one time in our lives, as if salvation is some one-time event. Or as if we can just know, we can predict, that we'll persevere no matter what. The truth is that we're to simply do our best with the lot and the gifts we're given and let God do the rest, including determining our eternal fate.

Click to expand...

I agree with all.
I DO believe we can know if we are saved right NOW...but in the sense that we cannot know if we will be at our death---then I also agree with this.

We can know we are saved if we follow Jesus, as you stated,,,and as long as we're at His feet.

Yes. I like your post....it would seem so simple, and yet....there are some that will not understand.

-57 said:

The faith + me crowd is trying to figure out what they must do in order to maintain salvation...all the while forgetting Jesus did it for them.

Click to expand...

The Bible shows if one keeps Christ's word is how the Christian maintains a saved position. ..

1 John 1:7 "But if we walk (present tense) in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth (present tense) us from all sin."

A continued walking results in continued cleansing of all thereby maintaining saved state, a perfect condition before God.

Albion said:

IMO, most people DO get that. It is only then it is linked to salvation or justification and made a "must do or else" proposition that the mistake enters in. There is no question but that the lifestyle the Savior taught us is what we should pursue.

Click to expand...

If you agree that we should pursue the lifestyle Jesus taught...then it IS linked to salvation/sanctification.

What happens if we are not pursuing that lifestyle?

John 8:31

Hammster said:

What you are saying is that your argument is from silence.

And I gave you my answer. I’m not going to defend a claim I never made.

Click to expand...

The only problem here is that faith onlyism does not want to see that obedience was first necessary in order to then receive grace.

Hammster said:

If anything is required to receive it, it’s not grace.

Click to expand...

What verse says this??? This is biased opinion, nothing more.