Life Origins & Science

Do you believe the Earth (and thus Universe) is 6,000 years old?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • No

    Votes: 11 78.6%

  • Total voters
    14

Matrix80

Member
May 31, 2019
7
2
37
Chicago
✟15,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It seems like often you have to choose between science and religion. Why can't we utilize evolution/big bang as intelligent design by God?

I can't even fathom a literal six day creationist mindset. Time is relative based on gravitational pulls. You can put atomic clocks at varying attitudes, and they will all have a different "time". The calendar was just recently invented, most historical societies never had a seven day week. It amazes me that if someone says an structure is 5,000 years old, it is believed without argument. If you say 7,000 years, it's automatically laughed at as impossible, since Earth wasn't around that long.

It makes more sense to think of time as relative. A second may be a billion years, a billion years a second. Even with our limited knowledge, we can theorize that the universe and time is not so black/white, but multidimensional.

If everything was made at the same time, we're talking about dinosaurs and people co-existing. Fossil fuels just magically created, despite us knowing how they're made. All the evolutionary research on life discarded.

I really struggle with the omnipresence aspect and knowing all dimensions, past and future. Therefore, God would have known we would have "bitten the Apple", so to speak. Then to do the entire Old Testament, only to toss away all the laws for redemption in the New Testament. Is it fair that someone gets entire Hell because they lived in the Old Testament, versus Post-Jesus? That hardly seems fair based on the timeline.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6

morse86

Junior Member
Aug 2, 2014
2,215
619
37
✟60,258.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Do you realize that atomic clocks are affected by temperature? It's garbage $$$cience. It doesn't work....it's the same pseudo science as carbon dating, it just doesn't work.

Einstein is puppet.

Bible warns about 2 kinds of science. REAL science and science that is falsely called. We need to stop reading second hand rubbish journalist newspaper articles regarding science and read the actual study/experiment/method...from first hand sources.
 
Upvote 0

basilbear76

Active Member
May 25, 2019
69
60
73
Phoenix, AZ
✟9,296.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Do you realize that atomic clocks are affected by temperature? It's garbage $$$cience. It doesn't work....it's the same pseudo science as carbon dating, it just doesn't work.

Einstein is puppet.

Bible warns about 2 kinds of science. REAL science and science that is falsely called. We need to stop reading second hand rubbish journalist newspaper articles regarding science and read the actual study/experiment/method...from first hand sources.
The earth can be only 6000 or so years old without stopping the universe from being much older.

Both the Big Bang and Genesis 1:1 say the same thing: There was Nothing in the created universe, and then there was Something.
 
Upvote 0

morse86

Junior Member
Aug 2, 2014
2,215
619
37
✟60,258.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
The earth can be only 6000 or so years old without stopping the universe from being much older.

Both the Big Bang and Genesis 1:1 say the same thing: There was Nothing in the created universe, and then there was Something.

No, the big $cam bang theory is the biggest pile of nonsense. It says everything came from nothing in a split second (a measurable amount). The bible says God spoked things into existence.

There is no universe, that is a made up science fiction garbage. It's just the earth, lights in the firmament.
 
Last edited:
  • Haha
Reactions: JackRT
Upvote 0

basilbear76

Active Member
May 25, 2019
69
60
73
Phoenix, AZ
✟9,296.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
No, the big $cam bang theory is the biggest pile of nonsense. It says everything came from nothing in a split second (a measurable amount). The bible says God spoked things into existence.

There is no universe, that is a made up science fiction garbage. It's just the earth, lights in the firmament.
And you think that God speaks in the way human beings do?

Are you saying there is NO universe? How about other galaxies?

I will say what I've said before on this issue:

How our uncreated God's timeless, boundless, and unmaterial "Fiat" becomes effective in the created universe of time, space, and matter is a mystery we can never fathom in this life.

In the next, we probably won't care.
 
Upvote 0

d taylor

Well-Known Member
Oct 16, 2018
10,550
4,684
59
Mississippi
✟248,096.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
I believe in the literal creation account given in Genesis 1
Because that is what i see.
And the Bible continues from beginning to end to affirm the literal creation account. There is not any agreement to be found in the Bible with science.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: miamited
Upvote 0

Matrix80

Member
May 31, 2019
7
2
37
Chicago
✟15,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is no universe, that is a made up science fiction garbage. It's just the earth, lights in the firmament.

I REALLY hope you're not being serious. You have no problem with someone "speaking" the Universe into existence, yet an action (such as the Big Bang), is absurd.

I don't think humans have the slightest clue on our existence within the universe. The astrophysics are just mind boggling. Our Earth, our Galaxy, is just a grain of sand in this vast universe.

I wouldn't be surprised if God put life all over the universe. It's a bit absurd to think otherwise. That's the same as having an aquarium the size of the ocean, for a goldfish.

If the Universe is expanding, what it is it expanding INTO?
If God created us, who created God?
What even makes a "God"?'

Heaven or Hell takes our "soul"...why would we feel 'pain' such as burning? Catholics believe in purgatory, while others go straight.

They are questions we will never have the answer. It's fine to have faith, but at least admit that it's faith. It's your reality, not the person sitting next to you.

I just despise people that hate any attempt at science. They're content just reading the bible and dying. In the early days, the Church killed anyone that tried to expand thinking.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Brightmoon
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It seems like often you have to choose between science and religion. Why can't we utilize evolution/big bang as intelligent design by God?

I can't even fathom a literal six day creationist mindset. Time is relative based on gravitational pulls. You can put atomic clocks at varying attitudes, and they will all have a different "time". The calendar was just recently invented, most historical societies never had a seven day week. It amazes me that if someone says an structure is 5,000 years old, it is believed without argument. If you say 7,000 years, it's automatically laughed at as impossible, since Earth wasn't around that long.

It makes more sense to think of time as relative. A second may be a billion years, a billion years a second. Even with our limited knowledge, we can theorize that the universe and time is not so black/white, but multidimensional.

If everything was made at the same time, we're talking about dinosaurs and people co-existing. Fossil fuels just magically created, despite us knowing how they're made. All the evolutionary research on life discarded.

I really struggle with the omnipresence aspect and knowing all dimensions, past and future. Therefore, God would have known we would have "bitten the Apple", so to speak. Then to do the entire Old Testament, only to toss away all the laws for redemption in the New Testament. Is it fair that someone gets entire Hell because they lived in the Old Testament, versus Post-Jesus? That hardly seems fair based on the timeline.

The issue is much bigger than that. It starts are the core of Christianity.....original sin. Why we have a sin nature.

Many want to turn Genesis into some sort of parable, myth, analogy, metaphor...what ever.
When doing so they silently claim creation and the fall...as well as the flood...really didn't happen. Well, not as the bible describes.

The question is, if the BB happened, the earth formed as some scientist suggest, life started and over a couple billion years eventually descended with modification to become humans...
So if that, when did mankind receive their sin nature? Did we evolve a sin gene? When did mankind become a "soul"? Did God one day several million years ago give all photo-humans a spirit and make them man?

You said "If everything was made at the same time, we're talking about dinosaurs and people co-existing. Fossil fuels just magically created, despite us knowing how they're made. All the evolutionary research on life discarded."

Whats wrong with dinosaurs and man co-existing at one time? I can understand the problem when the bible is filtered through Old Earth science...They died out 65+ MY's ago and the bible allows for 6,000 years.
But many scientist see the destruction of the dinosaurs during Noahs flood. Captured and buried in the flood sediment. You mentioned coal. What if the flood buried forrest and they became the fossil fuels?

...But, back to the issue of sin. If Adam didn't fall through an act of disobedience, but instead a population fell through a natural process...why do we need Jesus? You can't point to Genesis because if evolution is true...Genesis didn't really happen.

Theistic Evolution has some explaning to do.

But, here's the irony...The Theo-Evo camp says science has disproven Genesis yet at the same time believe that a dead man came back to life on day 3. They fail to realize modern medical science says that event is impossible.
 
Upvote 0

Matrix80

Member
May 31, 2019
7
2
37
Chicago
✟15,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The issue is much bigger than that. It starts are the core of Christianity.....original sin. Why we have a sin nature.

But many scientist see the destruction of the dinosaurs during Noahs flood. Captured and buried in the flood sediment. You mentioned coal. What if the flood buried forrest and they became the fossil fuels?

Actually, I don't think any normal scientist thinks that. There is the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event, which is basically an asteroid. There's an actual clay layer that has high iridium, which is tremendously rare in all but asteroids. There were also many tsunami beds found along coasts, which doesn't just occur because of rising waters.

What about all the dinosaurs that were ocean bound? Second, are you theorizing that God said take two of every animal, but let Dinosaurs drown? And yes, I think it's absurd to think that humans were just farming while T-Rex's casually walked past.

What did the flood actually solve? It was because of the "wickedness" of the human race. That sure was a lot of killing for us to be in the same state, if not significantly worst, today. Let everyone in the OT be stoned to death and eternity in hell, only to save them in the New Testament with a simple prayer.

We have to admit we simply don't know, and that's fine, you choose to believe. You choose to live your life according to the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually, I don't think any normal scientist thinks that. There is the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event, which is basically an asteroid. There's an actual clay layer that has high iridium, which is tremendously rare in all but asteroids. There were also many tsunami beds found along coasts, which doesn't just occur because of rising waters.

What about all the dinosaurs that were ocean bound? Second, are you theorizing that God said take two of every animal, but let Dinosaurs drown? And yes, I think it's absurd to think that humans were just farming while T-Rex's casually walked past.

What did the flood actually solve? It was because of the "wickedness" of the human race. That sure was a lot of killing for us to be in the same state, if not significantly worst, today. Let everyone in the OT be stoned to death and eternity in hell, only to save them in the New Testament with a simple prayer.

We have to admit we simply don't know, and that's fine, you choose to believe. You choose to live your life according to the Bible.

I noticed you skipped over the topic of sin that was in my post.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Actually, I don't think any normal scientist thinks that. There is the Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event, which is basically an asteroid. There's an actual clay layer that has high iridium, which is tremendously rare in all but asteroids. There were also many tsunami beds found along coasts, which doesn't just occur because of rising waters.

All which is not evidence for or against a world wide flood. There is much to be said about that topic. Also here

What about all the dinosaurs that were ocean bound? Second, are you theorizing that God said take two of every animal, but let Dinosaurs drown? And yes, I think it's absurd to think that humans were just farming while T-Rex's casually walked past.

What about the ocean bound "dinosaurs"?

Did T-rex casually walk by? You might want to explain this evidence.

What did the flood actually solve? It was because of the "wickedness" of the human race. That sure was a lot of killing for us to be in the same state, if not significantly worst, today. Let everyone in the OT be stoned to death and eternity in hell, only to save them in the New Testament with a simple prayer.

Where does the bible sy all in the OT will spend an eternity in hell? Where does the nt say a simple prayer will save you?

We have to admit we simply don't know, and that's fine, you choose to believe. You choose to live your life according to the Bible.

We can know what the bible teaches.
 
Upvote 0

Matrix80

Member
May 31, 2019
7
2
37
Chicago
✟15,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
OK let's address sin in terms of the Big Bang. What makes 'anything' sinful? I don't think that concept was a thing until someone said that, whether it be the 10 Commandments, etc. Prior to that, civilization had to be a free for all. I don't recall Adam and Eve being given the Bible.

Why create Adam and Eve, with the full knowledge they would sin? Why even put the tree of good and evil in the garden? It's not really for them to choose, when you know the outcome. Why create animals, life, plants, etc, all to wipe it. Again, the outcome was known.

Supposing you agree with the 6,000 years, why wait 4,000 years for Jesus? Was that waiting period necessary? It is a proven fact, humans evolved from neanderthals, so did they have souls? Nobody could read or write for much of time, so how are laws to be followed?

Yes you can know what the Bible teaches. I am playing a hard advocate, my beliefs are not published here, they may be identical but that doesn't spur thought and debate.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous to say, that with over 4,200 religions, you 'know' the truth. The Bible was created by man. You can say it was divinely picked, but many scriptures were tossed to the side during this counsel.

I'm going to need a better resource than "Genesis Park". I can turn on History's Ancient Alien's, and they'll present fantastic evidence of Aliens being engraved onto walls.

Recent research by paleontologists have concluded that many of these dinosaurs held their body weight horizontal, debunking previous thoughts. So that now means these images would completely contradict science, and likely be a hoax.

I know, my post is combative in nature, only to give thoughts and discussions on the matter. Again, I may very well believe in everything you say, or not at all.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
OK let's address sin in terms of the Big Bang. What makes 'anything' sinful? I don't think that concept was a thing until someone said that, whether it be the 10 Commandments, etc. Prior to that, civilization had to be a free for all. I don't recall Adam and Eve being given the Bible.

Sin is anything against God. But you don't appear to believe in God.
True, Adam and Eve were not given a bible but they were told not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But, from what I see you don't think the tree ever existed.

Why create Adam and Eve, with the full knowledge they would sin? Why even put the tree of good and evil in the garden? It's not really for them to choose, when you know the outcome. Why create animals, life, plants, etc, all to wipe it. Again, the outcome was known.

Many reasons why, but you asking the question shows you are to really learned on Gods nature. Perhaps God created Adam and Eve knowing they would sin was so that a Holy God could demonstrate all of His attributes.

Supposing you agree with the 6,000 years, why wait 4,000 years for Jesus? Was that waiting period necessary? It is a proven fact, humans evolved from neanderthals, so did they have souls? Nobody could read or write for much of time, so how are laws to be followed?

It's not a proven fact humans evolved from Neanderthals...But, lets say they did. Why do humans now have a sin nature? I've asked you this several times and you only seem to dance around the issue. Will you provide an answer? If you say I don't now, that's OK

Yes you can know what the Bible teaches. I am playing a hard advocate, my beliefs are not published here, they may be identical but that doesn't spur thought and debate.

You're really not a hard advocate. All you have done is speculated and made unsupported claims.

Isn't it a bit presumptuous to say, that with over 4,200 religions, you 'know' the truth. The Bible was created by man. You can say it was divinely picked, but many scriptures were tossed to the side during this counsel.

The scriptures were "tossed to the side for a reason. Did you ever study how the Bible was put together? Judging from the way you said it was tossed aside Im thinking you haven't.

I'm going to need a better resource than "Genesis Park". I can turn on History's Ancient Alien's, and they'll present fantastic evidence of Aliens being engraved onto walls.

Genesis park is a compilation of many resources. It's pretty strange you failed to notice that.

Recent research by paleontologists have concluded that many of these dinosaurs held their body weight horizontal, debunking previous thoughts. So that now means these images would completely contradict science, and likely be a hoax.

Once again, speculative claims with no reference.

I know, my post is combative in nature, only to give thoughts and discussions on the matter. Again, I may very well believe in everything you say, or not at all.

I see it as more ignorant (lack of knowledge)than combative. Just saying.
 
Upvote 0

Matrix80

Member
May 31, 2019
7
2
37
Chicago
✟15,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I most certainly never said I don't believe in God. Again, you say Sin is anything against God. They were instructed on the tree, any other sins would have to be inherently known. Society now has the Bible, but only in select civilized locations.

Sin nature. Are you referring to original sin, or imputed sin? If you mean original, that means our hearts are all destined to sin at birth. However, put the Bible aside, how do you know our actions are sinful? You're just assuming every person has a Bible. Perhaps the biological actions such as lust, is really our desire to reproduce for the sake of our species, which is evident in nearly all creatures. Looking at the ten commandments, many of which aren't applicable, if you weren't introduced to a religion (no other God's, Sabbath day, graven images, etc). Then such things as shall not kill. What if someone is assaulting your spouse, or you're in military operations? Are they no longer innocent brothers in Christ because a political leader states otherwise? I don't want to get into politics, just food for thought, I'm a military veteran.

I did not study the biblical origins in-depth, no. I've taken classes on varying Counsil's (i.e. Trent) and the Aopcrypha. Not many people know about the books of Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Esdras, etc.

If I'm "ignorant" on any comments, it's not by purpose. I did not go to Seminary, and while I hold several advanced science degrees, my studies in religion is based upon peer reviewed publications, studies, and commentary.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Matrix80

Member
May 31, 2019
7
2
37
Chicago
✟15,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let me create you, knowing you'll sin, so you can spend all of your future trying to redeem yourself and begging for forgiveness. It's also mentioned there was a fight in heaven among the angels (hence the Devil), which would have been foreseen.

Also, despite any popular belief, nowhere does it mention we become angels upon death. In fact, all the scholarly religious leaders argue against this such as Billy Graham. Psalm 8:5 touches on this very topic.

Many people believe in a God that created the heavens and earth, but is not omnipresent and society plays itself out.

Many of our actions are societal norms...such as saying "bless you" during a sneeze or "my prayers go out to you" during a tragedy. I've been to many churches that pray during disasters. If God is omnipresent, his decisions and intervention aren't based on a remote church in KY. He also knew that disaster was going to occur. As a soldier we were always told there were no atheists in a foxhole (albeit I have witnessed otherwise), and I would lean on the side of prayers, if nothing more than to ease my mind.

Perhaps you can still be a God, capable of creation, and not be omnipresent? Going back to my topic, can there be intelligent creation by a God, and not have it as it is today.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I most certainly never said I don't believe in God. Again, you say Sin is anything against God. They were instructed on the tree, any other sins would have to be inherently known. Society now has the Bible, but only in select civilized locations.

Sin nature. Are you referring to original sin, or imputed sin? If you mean original, that means our hearts are all destined to sin at birth. However, put the Bible aside, how do you know our actions are sinful? You're just assuming every person has a Bible. Perhaps the biological actions such as lust, is really our desire to reproduce for the sake of our species, which is evident in nearly all creatures. Looking at the ten commandments, many of which aren't applicable, if you weren't introduced to a religion (no other God's, Sabbath day, graven images, etc). Then such things as shall not kill. What if someone is assaulting your spouse, or you're in military operations? Are they no longer innocent brothers in Christ because a political leader states otherwise? I don't want to get into politics, just food for thought, I'm a military veteran.

I did not study the biblical origins in-depth, no. I've taken classes on varying Counsil's (i.e. Trent) and the Aopcrypha. Not many people know about the books of Tobit, Judith, Sirach, Esdras, etc.

If I'm "ignorant" on any comments, it's not by purpose. I did not go to Seminary, and while I hold several advanced science degrees, my studies in religion is based upon peer reviewed publications, studies, and commentary.

Once again I see you dancing around the issue. You present sin as something that evolved. Lust was your example.

What I see is it is your belief there was no fall in the garden based upon direct disobedience but rather we evolved the ability to sin. The problem with that is there are to many bible verses that disagree with that notion.

As to thou shall not kill....cold blooded murder is the context. Not self defense.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,699
1,957
✟70,048.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Let me create you, knowing you'll sin, so you can spend all of your future trying to redeem yourself and begging for forgiveness. It's also mentioned there was a fight in heaven among the angels (hence the Devil), which would have been foreseen.

I was trying to understand your view from what you wrote above...but it's not christianity but rather sounds like you're mocking it.

Also, despite any popular belief, nowhere does it mention we become angels upon death. In fact, all the scholarly religious leaders argue against this such as Billy Graham. Psalm 8:5 touches on this very topic.

Who ever said we become angels after death?

Many people believe in a God that created the heavens and earth, but is not omnipresent and society plays itself out.

that too would not be a christian view.

Many of our actions are societal norms...such as saying "bless you" during a sneeze or "my prayers go out to you" during a tragedy. I've been to many churches that pray during disasters. If God is omnipresent, his decisions and intervention aren't based on a remote church in KY. He also knew that disaster was going to occur. As a soldier we were always told there were no atheists in a foxhole (albeit I have witnessed otherwise), and I would lean on the side of prayers, if nothing more than to ease my mind.

"If God is omnipresent, his decisions and intervention aren't based on a remote church in KY. He also knew that disaster was going to occur."

True, God did know that the disaster would occur. Perhaps prayers do ease our minds. But I've seen many prayers answered which shows prayer is much more than that.

Perhaps you can still be a God, capable of creation, and not be omnipresent? Going back to my topic, can there be intelligent creation by a God, and not have it as it is today.

if Adam wasn't disobedient things would be different today.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Matrix80

Member
May 31, 2019
7
2
37
Chicago
✟15,919.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
My problem is, Adam 'never' had a choice, the future was known. There really was no reason to create Satan, nor the tree. He had creation complete, in all its glory. End of story.

Your prayers may be answered, but what about the millions that aren't? If they're answered, you praise God. If they aren't, it's God's will.

What comes to mind is 2 Samuel 12:15-23. David prayed for his son's health, he died, and then stopped weeping. He essentially said, nothing I can do, I'll just meet him in heaven. I think there's a lot of emotional and psychological factors involved in such a scenario that eases the mind.
 
Upvote 0