Women Preachers...The truth!

Paidiske

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No woman ministers purely on her own authority. That authority is given her by her church.

It's hardly "usurped" if my bishop willingly and gladly lays hands on my head and licenses me for ministry under his oversight.
 
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Phil W

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And I know there are a lot of ministers or whatnot who are both men and women who say they speak for our Lord these days, but in all honesty I truly believe some of them are not really geniune people of God, most of the taught out there doesn't add up to me or maybe I'm not understanding some things however if some of them were true men and women of God they would have remained true.

Theres even a scripture in the bible that says if they have belonged to us they would have stayed with us, but since they didn't, they didn't belong to us..
Jen, who are the "us"?
Aren't they the ones who agree with Paul about women's responsibilities?
So that means those who balk at Paul's words...didn't belong to us.

likewise some of them speak out of accordance of the Bible and pervert God's word and themselves with false doctrine. And because of that i believe they probably don't have the holy spirit cause it seems they are not speaking from the spirit, it seems they are adding and taking away from God's word and speaking from thier own mouth. They are just misguiding and leading the people and the world away from God and causing divisions. But the bible says who we to judge God's servant? So, be it a man or a woman, I won't do that!!!
You have to ask yourself...are those who go against scripture saying women can teach men and oversee churches "out of accordance of the bible"?
 
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Paidiske

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Jen, who are the "us"?
Aren't they the ones who agree with Paul about women's responsibilities?
So that means those who balk at Paul's words...didn't belong to us.

Given that the quote she's referring to is 1 John 2:19, I suspect Paul's views on women are not in view. John seems to be writing about those who love the world rather than the Father.
 
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Phil W

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Indeed and man is to lead ie serve, and protect the woman (which Adam failed to do). But the woman was to be a helper with the work that man does. Please show me where it says that man was given to translate and interpret scripture outside of this order? For most of church history, man has kept woman out of this important role and has denied her any role worthy of her giftings in the church, the result of which is explained in Romans 1:26:
"Lead" cannot be confused with "serve".
Though they aren't mutually exclusive, the heart of the matter is that the husband is head of the household and also of the church.
His leadership is in service to God, as scripture outlines in multiple places.
BTW, men didn't keep women "out of this important role", the bible did.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

The church has tried to twist this to say it is about sex. It is not it is about the natural use of the woman which has has been clearly shown in Genesis, is the role of helper. So the man, instead of having the woman as his helper has turned to other men (in the ministry) disiring (lusting) to work with them instead bringing about God's wrath towards them and giving them up to their sins.

I am not preaching for homosexuality btw - it is clear that Genesis gives the natural order.
You site "natural order" but seem to prefer an unnatural order among men and women in ministry.
I hope I am misreading you.[/QUOTE]
 
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Phil W

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What you're talking about there, though, is not about leadership structure in the Church. The Church has only one head, Christ; and we who are priests or pastors or ministers don't take Christ's place as head of the Church but have particular roles and responsibilities alongside our brothers and sisters.
Roles spelled out in scripture.
But that hasn't "slowed your roll".
How can you post such a statement then put the women over the men?
 
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Phil W

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See my above post #174.
You seem to prefer a reading of...""But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the man is the woman; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
 
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Paidiske

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Roles spelled out in scripture.
But that hasn't "slowed your roll".
How can you post such a statement then put the women over the men?

I'm not putting "the women over the men." I'm seeing men and women called to partnership in mission and ministry. Not one over the other but mutuality and cooperation.

That's what I find Scripture consistently pointing us towards.
 
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Phil W

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1 Corinthians 11:1-16
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of Christ. Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head—it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. Indeed, man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for the sake of woman, but woman for the sake of man. For this reason a woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man or man independent of woman. For just as woman came from man, so man comes through woman; but all things come from God. Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head unveiled? Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair, it is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. nor do the churches of God.​

Look at Paul's summation.
"But if anyone is disposed to be contentious—we have no such custom,"
Don't you think that letting men have long hair is being contentious?
Don't you think those allowing woman's headship over man is being contentious?
I sure do.
Let's start by looking at the passage, rather than abusing a sing verse. And yes it is an awkward passage. At one level we see Paul anxious to preserve the traditions (not sure if this is the traditions of the Jews, or the traditions of the community on Corinth - whichever this is in some sense about being within the context of the community in which we operate). The reflection on the nature and purpose of the creation of women is built inside a hebrew/greek cultural tradition, and whilst it might sit easily in a socio dynamic which argues for a paternalism that is no longer part of our cultural context. Do any on us think that God is bothered by men with long hair and women with short hair, I think not because God judges the heart. The context of the Pauline passage is really summed up at the end when we see it is about working within the cultural context, seeking not to let these matters get in the way of the gospel being heard.
There will be times when it is essential for christians to be counter-cultural, and certainly we are not to simply accept everything without question, yet I am also convinced that we are called to pick and choose those battle grounds, and in the cultural context in which we operate in the western world that cultural tradition calls us to value women and men equally, and not to engage in some thinly guised male chauvinism. Men are not better than women, and neither are women better than men, but equals in standing, albeit at one level clearly different in outlook and approach.
Did God change?
Or did the culture change?
I'll stick with God, as I am "not of this world".
 
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Phil W

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No woman ministers purely on her own authority. That authority is given her by her church.

It's hardly "usurped" if my bishop willingly and gladly lays hands on my head and licenses me for ministry under his oversight.
Bishops who seem ignorant of scripture.
I am sure there are rules here to keep me civil about how I feel about "churches" that work outside of scripture.
But if my headship wanted to ignore something written by Paul...I would seek another minister.
 
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Phil W

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Given that the quote she's referring to is 1 John 2:19, I suspect Paul's views on women are not in view. John seems to be writing about those who love the world rather than the Father.
Perhaps they are "views" about homosexuality or divorce or speeding through school zones or drunkenness or sending your kids away from home for their education.
All these topics show whose seed one manifests on earth.
 
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Phil W

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I'm not putting "the women over the men." I'm seeing men and women called to partnership in mission and ministry. Not one over the other but mutuality and cooperation.

That's what I find Scripture consistently pointing us towards.
Nice twist.
Scripture consistently points us to God's loving domination.
When men and women start reinterpreting what "God wants", only trouble lieth ahead.
 
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Sparagmos

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Just fed up with the liberals like Bernie Sanders, a socialist, who couldn't stop mentioning Denmark. People don't like it here, move. I love my country too and would rather we remove benefits - that would easily stop illegal immigration (500,000 in the past year). When I said, move there, I did mean legally.
We have a democracy, and we decide what kind of system we want here. If the majority of Americans want to be more like Denmark, we will make the change. I live in the Pacific Northwest, surrounded by rainforests, mountains, and waterfalls. I have no desire to move to Denmark, but I will continue to work towards an economic system closer to theirs.
 
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Philip_B

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Look at Paul's summation.
"But if anyone is disposed to be contentious—we have no such custom,"
Don't you think that letting men have long hair is being contentious?
Don't you think those allowing woman's headship over man is being contentious?
I sure do.
I have three boys (well men now) and I can tell you of all the things they did to earn me my grey hair, their hair was the least of my worries. I do not think that a man having long hair is contentious, I just think it is a man having long hair. I don't have long hair, and that may well be a reflection of the reality that I could not be bothered looking after it.

In my working life I have worked for men, I have worked for women, I have worked for myself. I don't get what the issue is. I don't see the problem. Some women and some men are good bosses, and some have culpable deficiencies. Working for yourself is the most demanding and the least forgiving. It is just not a contentious issue.
Did God change?
Or did the culture change?
I'll stick with God, as I am "not of this world".
Our challenge is to speak the eternal truth in temporal reality. We are called not to ignore the temporal reality, not to be subsumed by it, but to work within it that the light of Christ might shine in the darkness, knowing that the darkness will not overcome it.
 
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Sparagmos

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You seem to prefer a reading of...""But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the man is the woman; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)
Paidiske consistently demonstrates the fact that women are made to minister and lead just as men are. She shows incredible scholarship, wisdom, and patience, more so than most of the men here on CF. Clearly she is playing the role she was meant for, and it is unrelated to her gender.
 
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Sparagmos

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Nice twist.
Scripture consistently points us to God's loving domination.
When men and women start reinterpreting what "God wants", only trouble lieth ahead.
Women had a lot more trouble when we were expected to submit to male “headship.” You’re never going to convince us to go back to those oppressive roles.
 
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timewerx

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But Ephesians 5 was written after Jesus. So I don't understand how it no longer applies.

Actually, the Epistles of Paul are written earlier than the Gospels! :eek: :eek:

Appendix 8: Chronological Order of the Books of the New Testament - Bible Study Tools
giphy.gif

If you accept the teachings of Paul concerning women in literal interpretation, you are also rejecting/contradicting other parts of scriptures.

That's not going to work. It's just absurd to interpret the Bible in way that some teachings contradict each other. Not a healthy way to think.
 
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Strong in Him

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Really?
How many other "single exhortations" do you include in that blanket statement?
How about..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

That verse - which you have taken out of context - may only appear once, but we are constantly urged to be holy, 1 Thessalonians 3:3, to be like Christ, be IN Christ and put on Christ. Paul says that the Holy spirit is changing us into Jesus' image and likeness.

Once in One chapter?
Isn't that against your doctrine?

No, there are other examples of women as leaders. Esther was queen, influenced the king and saved the Jews from destruction. The Jews still celebrate this with an annual festival called Purim.
Phoebe was a deacon in the church; other women were apostles and were commended by Paul for their work.

Besides, if it were God's will and command that no woman should be in leadership, they never would have been. Ever.

God selected a woman to be His a judge, but it was God's Spirit in the judge doing the judgements.

I don't doubt that.
God selects women to be preachers but it is his Spirit who gives us gifts, a calling and anointing, and tells us what to say.

I have no problem with women being selected by God to relay His words to "men".
Not all prophesy is of a teaching nature. (1 Cor 14:3)

That means you don't take 1 Timothy 2:12 literally and are calling for women to be silenced.
That's good.

You are confusing "reporting the news" with "teaching men".

I'm not confusing it at all.
I'm trying to understand what people mean when they quote 1 Timothy 2:12 - is this literal and for us today, or not?
Some say 'yes, it's in Scripture and HAS to be obeyed.' If you are of that opinion, then women should be silent and not allowed to teach men anything. Yet there are incidences in Scripture which say otherwise. Mary went to a roomful of men, told them that Jesus was alive and passed on a message from him; the woman at the well went back to her village, told them about Jesus and led them to see him. In the OT, the male priests chose to consult a prophetess when the king needed a word from God; men went to see Deborah when they wanted their disputes resolved; Ruth proposed to Boaz; Esther saved a nation.
If God's will and order is that men lead, teach and be in authority, this would have happened, constantly, throughout Scripture - and Jesus, who came to reveal God to us and teach his will, would have clearly taught it.

You are stating that the Spirit spoke different/contrasting messages from two different men.

No I'm not.
I'm saying that Scripture does not contradict itself - and that it is important to read Scripture in context, understanding what is being said, what kind of writing it is and what the readers/audience would have understood by it.
So if we read a verse that appears to say one thing, is it advice or a command; is it taught elsewhere, is it doctrine, poetry, history etc and is it addressing the culture of the time? Some people say, for example, that Christians aren't supposed to drink, and find verses that teach against drunkeness; others point to the miracle at the wedding at Cana, or Paul's advice to Timothy to drink wine, and say the opposite.

Lots of doctrines/church practice depend on our interpretation of Scripture.
All churches agree on the Gospel - but people can find verses on tongues, leadership, baptism, wearing robes/not wearing robes etc etc, and say "this issue is Scriptural, we have to do it."

Where did Jesus say that women can be in leadership roles?

The point is, where does he say that they can't?
Where did he say "I will build my church and the gates of hell will not overcome it - unless you allow women to lead it"?
Or, "if you cannot settle a dispute, tell it to the church - that's a church without female leaders."
When Jesus was showing us God's love and giving us an example of how to love and treat people, where did he exclude women? Quite the opposite; he allowed them to follow him, to learn from him and to speak for, and witness to, him.

You must have at least one NT scripture stating that women can lead the body of Christ in order to make such a statement.

No I don't.
People use computers, laptops, microphones etc in leading worship and teaching God's people - where are the verses of Scripture which say this is allowed?
God is calling women today, just as he always has - this is the testimony of those who are called in this way and a fact; look in some pulpits. The only alternative to their testimonies is that God is confused about his own word, or that the women themselves are liars, deluded or just disobedient. If God did not want Christian women to teach, preach and lead today; they wouldn't be doing so.

"They" say they are called, in spite of what scripture says?

That's just it. You believe that Scripture teaches that this is forbidden; they, and the many men who counsel, pray with and teach them, don't.

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor 11:3)

Where are the words "so women can never teach men", in that statement?
Where does it say that a female vicar, who is under the authority of a male Bishop, cannot be in that role?

Judges aren't leaders, they are judges.

She was leader over the nation - they had judges before they had kings.
According to some, God will not allow women to lead.

I'll stick with what is written...Including..."This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Tim 3:1-5)

Oh good.
Presumably your church will not appoint single, childless men to be Ministers/pastors; or those who drink, lie money, have a temper, cannot control their children, and so on. Presumably if a man is an excellent candidate for such a role but his wife is infertile, he would be turned away. Scripture says a man MUST be able to control his children, right? Scripture says a church leader MUST be patient, right?
Go and sack all those who aren't.
 
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Strong in Him

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God had a strong word for Judaizers who were trying to force Gentiles to be circumcised. vs. 4 states if they do this, they will be severed from Christ! If they lived by the Law, they have fallen from grace.

But Paul said that he wished that those false teachers who taught circumcision would go all the way and castrate themselves.
It's in Scripture, and your argument seems to be that everything in Scripture HAS to be obeyed by us today - even if it wasn't written to us.

Their passions drew them away from Christ and towards Satan.

That may have been true in some cases.
But my point is that this is also something that Paul said and is in Scripture - are you as passionate about obeying this as you seem to be about criticising female leaders?

Wow, picking out all the scriptures where God's chastising of women?

You're missing my point.
Paul said that women under the age of 60 do not deserve financial assistance from the church. Your position is that Paul was inspired by God and wrote what God wanted him to write; did God want him to write this? If he did, presumably that means that we have to obey it too, according to your view - so does your church do it? If not, why aren't you doing something that Paul taught - i.e refusing to help women financially because they are too young?

Ridiculous, a little wine is good for stomach problems - but the Bible clearly warns of too much wine and not to be a drunkard.

Yes, it does.
But your argument was that Paul wrote exactly what God wanted him to write; so what does that verse mean, especially for someone who doesn't drink alcohol?

Right, we are born in sin, it is our nature.

Babies aren't born sinful - that would mean that those who died, aged even only 1 day, would be forever condemned.

What's your point?

My point is that everything in Scripture is inerrant, but not everything is to be taken literally, nor is it, necessarily, for us today.
The OT has many laws that we are not under today - yet they are still all written in Scripture.
Paul said that it is disgraceful for men to have long hair and women to have short hair; not today, it isn't.
It is not wrong to read something in Scripture, understand that as cultural advice/a description of life then, and not a universal command that has to be obeyed by us today. Such an action and attitude does not detract from the inerrancy of God's word.

All God's warning don't apply to everyone, you may need specific ones, I need others.

Agreed.
Yet you said that Paul wrote exactly what he was told to write. The implication is that Paul wrote it because God wanted it in there, and the further implication is that if it's in Scripture we need to do it.

The words about women in leadership are not commands, warnings or doctrine and nothing to do with salvation.
 
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Look at Paul's summation.
"But if anyone is disposed to be contentious—we have no such custom,"
Don't you think that letting men have long hair is being contentious?​
No.
And if it were imperative, Paul would be more specific. How long is 'long'? Below the ears? Down to the collar - oh, wait; collars aren't Scriptural.

Did God change?

God's nature and attributes never change, but the ways in which he work certainly do.

Once God travelled around in a tabernacle; that was the sign of his presence and where he "lived".
Then he instructed Solomon to build a temple - his house, where sacrifices were received and feasts celebrated. But that was destroyed, first while his people were in exile, and then by the Romans, and has never been rebuilt.
Then Jesus came and taught that God can live IN us.
Once, God made a covenant with his people, the Israelites; now he has made a NEW Covenant and Gentiles can also be his people.
Once, people had to approach prophets to get a word from the Lord; now, we can all speak to him directly.
 
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timewerx

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God's nature and attributes never change, but the ways in which he work certainly do.

Once God travelled around in a tabernacle; that was the sign of his presence and where he "lived".
Then he instructed Solomon to build a temple - his house, where sacrifices were received and feasts celebrated. But that was destroyed, first while his people were in exile, and then by the Romans, and has never been rebuilt.
Then Jesus came and taught that God can live IN us.
Once, God made a covenant with his people, the Israelites; now he has made a NEW Covenant and Gentiles can also be his people.
Once, people had to approach prophets to get a word from the Lord; now, we can all speak to him directly.

Excellent point! 2000 years ago, the Jews had God-inspired scriptures called the Torah (Which is the direct equivalent of our Bible).

The enemies of Christ were also interpreting the Torah in literal terms! :eek:

They also thought Jesus is contradicting scriptures and accused HIm of blasphemy.

But Jesus didn't really contradict the scriptures. He knew the underlying message of it - the right context which the Jews failed to see.
 
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