Is it Ethical to be fired for stating Christian beliefs

FireDragon76 · Apr 18, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Ok so I should listen to my boss instead of listening to God then because I might get fired lol. Hmmm what’s worse getting fired or spending eternity in the lake of fire? That’s a tough choice. If my boss told me I couldn’t spread the gospel he wouldn’t need to fire me I would quit.

This is symptomatic of the sort of thing that caused Israel Folau to do what he did and get into trouble. It reflects an overly dualistic and polemical worldview.

Let's put it this way, typically your duty to your employer is bound up in duty to God in your vocation. The idea that they are inevitably in conflict is part of the dualistic worldview that was being criticized earlier. Nobody says you should do something evil and repugnant, but if your employer requests you refrain from doing things that are disruptive to your employer's business, you should generally comply with that. Not just out of a sense of being civil, but out of a desire to honor the God you are supposed to serve.

Furthermore, Christians should not be primarily motivated out of existential fears in that manner (the lake of fire, etc.), they should have confidence in God's grace. Otherwise, your point of view simply reflects spiritual confusion that is potentially no different from unbelief. Instead of trusting in God, you are trusting in your own ability to live according to religious rules.

Halbhh · Apr 18, 2019

Zoii said:
Even if he had not said they were going to hell - to say that they are all sinful (AKA Bad if you looking at it from outside of christianity) - The issue is that he stated his religious conviction publicly regarding this cohort. Was that ethical to do given he signed a contract that bound him to a code of conduct.

I think it's a very valuable lesson to him, that when he breaks the commands of Christ such as Luke 6:37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
that when he disobeys Christ, it results in a bad outcome (and even harms the cause of Christianity also).

Christianity is about saving sinners, not judging them.

And all are sinners (not just those other people over there doing some sin I'm not doing at the moment).

If I get too concerned with pointing out that alcoholism is a sin, more than just an fyi in passing, it's time to pray for me, that I be turned from my sins (instead of judging others hypocritically).

If we all were condemned at the outset, we'd all, uniformly, have zero hope.

God is far, far more merciful and amazing than that. Amazing Grace.

And by the way, temperament is not a sin, not ever. Sins are wrong actions (including wrong actions we can do inside our minds/hearts, like condemning others)

RDKirk · Apr 18, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Ok so I should listen to my boss instead of listening to God then because I might get fired lol. Hmmm what’s worse getting fired or spending eternity in the lake of fire? That’s a tough choice. If my boss told me I couldn’t spread the gospel he wouldn’t need to fire me I would quit.

One of the things to be noted about the pattern of the apostle Paul's evangelism is that he always took his preaching to the places that religious discourse was expected. He went first to the synagogue, where he could begin with the Law--as normal for that venue--and lead into the gospel of Christ.

When he got kicked out of the synagogue, he went to a personal house where he was welcomed. If there was no house, he rented an appropriate venue.

In Philippi--where there was no synagogue because Claudius had expelled the Jews a few years earlier--he didn't set up a soapbox in the middle of town, he went to the river outside the gates where he expected to find worshipers.

The one time he started preaching "in the marketplace" in Athens, he was told where that was better done (Mars' HIll) and he immediately went there.

Paul did not try to preach in places where preaching was not normally welcomed.

So the idea that a Christian should demand liberty to preach anywhere is not supported by scripture. It's not in keeping with admonitions to preach the gospel with grace.

RDKirk · Apr 18, 2019

Zoii said:
There are mixed teams as well

But there are unmixed teams, so that is apparently permitted. Correct?

FireDragon76 · Apr 18, 2019

RDKirk said:
One of the things to be noted about the pattern of the apostle Paul's evangelism is that he always took his preaching to the places that religious discourse was expected. He went first to the synagogue, where he could begin with the Law--as normal for that venue--and lead into the gospel of Christ.

This is related to what I meant by "leaving it to professionals". If you have no specific calling or vocation to preach, you shouldn't do so. I don't mean to imply that you must be part of a particular religious denomination necessarily, but the expectation that everybody must preach ignores peoples actual aptitudes. Sometimes people can give a better testimony to their faith by simply being silent and doing what needs to be done.

Paul did not try to preach in places where preaching was not normally welcomed.

True, otherwise it would go against his own understanding that Christians aim to live peaceful lives.

This is one thing that perplexed many Romans who observed Christians. They thought it was horrible that Christians didn't participate in the emperor cult, but they otherwise began to appreciate that they lived peaceful lives and often would care for people that pagan society at large would not, such as foundlings and the sick. What was threatening about them wasn't what they did, so much as what they didn't do.

stevenfrancis · Apr 18, 2019

Zoii said:
Even if he had not said they were going to hell - to say that they are all sinful (AKA Bad if you looking at it from outside of christianity) - The issue is that he stated his religious conviction publicly regarding this cohort. Was that ethical to do given he signed a contract that bound him to a code of conduct.

Zoii · Apr 18, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Ok should I obey commands from all random people on the Internet or just you?

What on earth are you talking about.

Zoii · Apr 18, 2019

RDKirk said:
But there are unmixed teams, so that is apparently permitted. Correct?

Generally speaking young juniors is mixed, older juniors and seniors is unmixed, touch rugby is mixed, golden oldies is mixed

RDKirk · Apr 18, 2019

Zoii said:
Generally speaking young juniors is mixed, older juniors and seniors is unmixed, touch rugby is mixed, golden oldies is mixed

My point being that gender discrimination is permitted for private organizations.

keith99 · Apr 18, 2019

RDKirk said:
Why do they have men's teams and women's teams instead of mixed teams?

Or are they allowed to discriminate by gender?

yup, just like most sports teams in the U.S. and elsewhere. In the U.S. in my experience one could argue that it is the men who are discriminated against as women have played on men's teams but not the reverse. Not many but 2 I can remember.

keith99 · Apr 18, 2019

RDKirk said:
I think she meant that 140-character tweets do not make an effective evangelistic medium.

I can think of a guy who was pretty effective and non-offensive with under 10 characters. Of course he did wear a rainbow wig to draw attention.

He got an endzone seat and had a sign that simply said:

John 3:16

It was not very long until few people needed to look it up to know what it said.

BNR32FAN · Apr 18, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
This is symptomatic of the sort of thing that caused Israel Folau to do what he did and get into trouble. It reflects an overly dualistic and polemical worldview.

Let's put it this way, typically your duty to your employer is bound up in duty to God in your vocation. The idea that they are inevitably in conflict is part of the dualistic worldview that was being criticized earlier. Nobody says you should do something evil and repugnant, but if your employer requests you refrain from doing things that are disruptive to your employer's business, you should generally comply with that. Not just out of a sense of being civil, but out of a desire to honor the God you are supposed to serve.

Furthermore, Christians should not be primarily motivated out of existential fears in that manner (the lake of fire, etc.), they should have confidence in God's grace. Otherwise, your point of view simply reflects spiritual confusion that is potentially no different from unbelief. Instead of trusting in God, you are trusting in your own ability to live according to religious rules.

“"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ' THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.' "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:18-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Tinker Grey · Apr 18, 2019

keith99 said:
I can think of a guy who was pretty effective and non-offensive with under 10 characters. Of course he did wear a rainbow wig to draw attention.

He got an endzone seat and had a sign that simply said:

John 3:16

It was not very long until few people needed to look it up to know what it said.

His story doesn't end well, though. The Unbelievable Life of the 'John 3:16' Sports Guy

BNR32FAN · Apr 18, 2019

RDKirk said:
One of the things to be noted about the pattern of the apostle Paul's evangelism is that he always took his preaching to the places that religious discourse was expected. He went first to the synagogue, where he could begin with the Law--as normal for that venue--and lead into the gospel of Christ.

When he got kicked out of the synagogue, he went to a personal house where he was welcomed. If there was no house, he rented an appropriate venue.

In Philippi--where there was no synagogue because Claudius had expelled the Jews a few years earlier--he didn't set up a soapbox in the middle of town, he went to the river outside the gates where he expected to find worshipers.

The one time he started preaching "in the marketplace" in Athens, he was told where that was better done (Mars' HIll) and he immediately went there.

Paul did not try to preach in places where preaching was not normally welcomed.

So the idea that a Christian should demand liberty to preach anywhere is not supported by scripture. It's not in keeping with admonitions to preach the gospel with grace.

No you are very incorrect. The apostles were forbidden to teach the gospel especially in the temple of all places.

“But someone came and reported to them, "The men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!" Then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence (for they were afraid of the people, that they might be stoned). When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.”
‭‭ACTS‬ ‭5:25-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

keith99 · Apr 18, 2019

Tinker Grey said:
His story doesn't end well, though. The Unbelievable Life of the 'John 3:16' Sports Guy

Interesting. But it does show that a future dangerous nut case can make a far more effective presentation of Christianity.

FireDragon76 · Apr 18, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
“"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ' THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.' "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
‭‭JOHN‬ ‭15:18-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You are taking that out of context. Jesus is warning his disciples who are about to go out into a 1st century pagan world. He's not saying go out and invite unnecessary trouble.

Paul says we should live quiet and peaceful lives.

FireDragon76 · Apr 18, 2019

keith99 said:
Interesting. But it does show that a future dangerous nut case can make a far more effective presentation of Christianity.

Really tragic. I wonder if he was unstable, or did apocalypticism make him so.

My aunt used to obsess about the pre-trib rapture and gave me a copy of Hal Lindsey's Late, Great Planet Earth and that stuff messed with my head when I was a teen, something my church generally considers nonsense. Which is too bad, I think she's otherwise a kind woman that has had a heavy cross to bear at times. But I think ideas like that can make vulnerable people unhinged.

RDKirk · Apr 18, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No you are very incorrect. The apostles were forbidden to teach the gospel especially in the temple of all places.

“But someone came and reported to them, "The men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!" Then the captain went along with the officers and proceeded to bring them back without violence (for they were afraid of the people, that they might be stoned). When they had brought them, they stood them before the Council. The high priest questioned them, saying, "We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and intend to bring this man's blood upon us." But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.”
‭‭ACTS‬ ‭5:25-29‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I explicitly spoke of Paul, who did his evangelical work among Gentiles as we do today. Please point out to me where I was incorrect about Paul.

You may not realize that the temple at Jerusalem has been destroyed, so that example is no longer relevant.

FireDragon76 · Apr 18, 2019

It seems to me some people are attracted to a certain approach to being Christian due to pride. Being part of a group that is perceived as persecuted and insular can give you a perverse sense of pride, like a Galileo Syndrome, if you otherwise have little affirmation by others in your life, and don't have a particularly strong ego-structure. In fact, sometimes the odder the beliefs, practices, or the more contrarian and uncivil the behaviors, the more people feel pride in them. The fact that most people think its crazy just sort of spurs them on more. In such cases, there's not much you can do except resort to punitive or remedial measures. No amount of sweet talking is going to convince those sorts of people, because it's really subconscious motivations at play.

It does not surprise me such people could become deluded in the end, and do foolish things, from posting offensive messages online to things like barricading people in buildings, just to get notoriety. The ancient monastics talked about how dangerous pride was, they associated it with demonic influences- even in otherwise pious people. And I think these sorts of discussions are highlighting the dangers of pride in the Christian life.

Allandavid · Apr 19, 2019

seeking.IAM said:
He signed a contract. Did he violate the contractual obligations he agreed to?

Yep.

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