Is abstaining from sin worth anything if done for the wrong reasons?

Mary Meg said:

Sure. But in the OP's example, we're talking about somebody who is, say, abstaining from being a prostitute in order to please somebody she cares for and maybe gain a meaningful relationship. Abstaining from being a prostitute is a good, not a sin. Pursuing marriage is also a good. Sure, God desires for people to come to His grace and to do everything for the purest motives, out of no other reason than love for him. But to say that pursuing those goods, for less-than-pure motives, is worthless or even sinful -- I have a very hard time swallowing that. Don't some traditions believe in "common grace" -- the idea that God gives His grace to the world, even to unbelievers, and by that grace draws people to the good and through the good, ultimately to Him?

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Common grace doesn't mean the actions aren't still tainted by sin. They are not meritorious in any way towards salvation, at least.

Common grace does not draw us to God, only the Holy Spirit does that. It's a mistake to confuse Christianity with moralism. The same grace is freely given to all who believe, regardless of what kind of life they have lead. As Sister Helen Prejean, the famous advocate for those on death row once said, people are worth more than the worst thing they have ever done. That is all we are seeking to preserve through our preaching, that God's mercy is greater than our sins.

Well, we do take it one step further- God has real mercy on real sinners. If you are going to be a preacher of mercy, as Luther said, preach a real, and not a hypothetical, mercy, for real, and not hypothetical people.

FireDragon76 said:

Common grace does not draw us to God, only the Holy Spirit does that. It's a mistake to confuse Christianity with moralism.

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Oh, I wouldn't do that. It is always the Holy Spirit who draws. But can't the Holy Spirit draw us though the means of common grace? A person following the path of the good can eventually realize, though the Holy Spirit, that that Good has a name and a face. And if this lady in the example is doing these things to please her Christian boyfriend, isn't she even closer to realizing that?

Just because an action is not meritorious toward salvation doesn't mean it's damnable. This kind of reasoning presents a bully God who kicks people to the curb just for trying and striving, rather than the God I believe in, a loving and merciful one who reaches out to hold people's hands and help them toward the truth.

Mary Meg said:

Oh, I wouldn't do that. It is always the Holy Spirit who draws. But can't the Holy Spirit draw us though the means of common grace?

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Well, for one thing Common Grace is a Reformed, and not a Lutheran category. We would emphasize the Church as the only place we can know where grace actually is present, as per Christ's ordinance of his sacraments. God ordains orders of creation, such as the family and the state for our benefit, it is a kind of "common grace", but we think of grace itself as salvific, not the orders of creation. Creation and redemption are separate categories in Lutheran theology.

A person following the path of the good can eventually realize, though the Holy Spirit, that that Good has a name and a face. And if this lady in the example is doing these things to please her Christian boyfriend, isn't she even closer to realizing that?

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God could draw her to do that I suppose. Then again she could just be deluding herself. There may well be many Christians who thought themselves holy, who end up in Hell, if we read Jesus story of the sheep and the goats seriously. It's always safer to assume we are the worst of sinners and that our works are mortal sins, and trust in Christ's work alone to justify us.

Just because an action is not meritorious toward salvation doesn't mean it's damnable.

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Lutherans believe all people that are born are born with the sin of Adam, and are therefore children of wrath and not children of God. It takes a miracle of grace to change that.

If we believe an action justifies us before God, then I would encourage someone to examine themselves and seek out their motivations for doing so- is it love or pride? Pride is damnable.

THis kind of reasoning presents a bully God who kicks people to the curb just for trying and striving, rather than the God I believe in, a loving and merciful one who reaches out to hold people's hands and help them toward the truth.

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No, God is always merciful, we take that very seriously, but God has a settled wrath against all sin, and we are by nature children of wrath. That is why preaching both Law and Gospel is necessary, so that daily we are made anew through faith.

FireDragon76 said:

Well, for one thing Common Grace is a Reformed, and not a Lutheran category. We would emphasize the Church as the only place we can know where grace actually is present, as per Christ's ordinance of his sacraments. God ordains orders of creation, such as the family and the state for our benefit, it is a kind of "common grace", but we think of grace itself as salvific, not the orders of creation. Creation and redemption are separate categories in Lutheran theology.

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I'm not much of a theologian (though I'm learning). Most of that went over my head, honestly. But if we believe God is merciful, even to sinners, and that He desires for all to come to a knowledge of the truth, then we have to believe that His Holy Spirit is always seeking them and leading them through whatever means He can.

FireDragon76 said:

Then again she could just be deluding herself. There may well be many Christians who thought themselves holy, who end up in Hell, if we read Jesus story of the sheep and the goats seriously. It's always safer to assume we are the worst of sinners and that our works are mortal sins, and trust in Christ's work alone to justify us. If we believe it justifies us before God, then I would encourage someone to examine themselves and seek out their motivations for doing so- is it love or pride? Pride is damnable.

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Sounds pretty cynical to me. In the OP's example, it sounded like the girl was just trying to please her boyfriend because she liked him, not that she was trying to "earn salvation." You Lutheran and Reformed types seem to be awfully suspicious of anyone's motives -- and find most motives damnable.

You know what story I take seriously, too? The one of Christ the shepherd leaving His flock to find the one lost sheep.

FireDragon76 said:

No, God is always merciful, we take that very seriously, but God has a settled wrath against all sin, and we are by nature children of wrath. That is why preaching both Law and Gospel is necessary, so that daily we are made anew through faith.

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Doesn't he, in His mercy, try to save us from sin? Isn't that the whole point?

Mary Meg said:

Sounds pretty cynical to me. In the OP's example, it sounded like the girl was just trying to please her boyfriend because she liked him, not that she was trying to "earn salvation." You Lutheran and Reformed types seem to be awfully suspicious of anyone's motives -- and find most motives damnable.

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Of course, at least in a pastoral or church context, that is the case (on the other hand, when judging others as an ordinary person, and not a pastor, we are taught to reflect on what people say in the best possible light). We don't take sin lightly at all, and we tend to have extremely rigorous ethics as a result.

Doesn't he, in His mercy, try to save us from sin? Isn't that the whole point?

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Yes, but we point to the means he actually ordained to save us, his Word and Sacraments. We simply believe and receive his grace, how we respond to that in no way contributes to our justification before God. We cannot earn or merit any part of our salvation.

Mary Meg said:

Sure. But in the OP's example, we're talking about somebody who is, say, abstaining from being a prostitute in order to please somebody she cares for and maybe gain a meaningful relationship. Abstaining from being a prostitute is a good, not a sin. Pursuing marriage is also a good. Sure, God desires for people to come to His grace and to do everything for the purest motives, out of no other reason than love for him. But to say that pursuing those goods, for less-than-pure motives, is worthless or even sinful -- I have a very hard time swallowing that. Don't some traditions believe in "common grace" -- the idea that God gives His grace to the world, even to unbelievers, and by that grace draws people to the good and through the good, ultimately to Him?

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I have a statement. Don't take this the wrong way, but your use of the word sin, seems to go in the direction of purely egregious outward acts. I want to give an answer for your confusion of How the topic of this young woman could possibly be sin when she is trying to do something that is of the appearance of good.

Ezekiel 17 is a parable to the House of Israel. Father has used this parable in my own life. It is a parable of Two Eagles. The first Eagle, was a beautiful Eagle that He had placed and it flourished. This Eagle was a symbol for what Yahweh had for Israel, a prosperous and fruitful Eagle, it was Gods way. This is the Eagle Father wanted them to follow and abide in.

The second Eagle is described as being great and had it's roots cast towards the water, so that it might be watered by God. Very quickly though, the scripture states that that Eagle, while having a good intention behind it, was not the Path(Eagle) that Father had chosen for them.

If they were to choose the second Eagle, it would be sin because it's trying to accomplish something by another way other than what Yahweh has already given to be the way.

It's like with this relationship mentioned by the OP. The young women is trying to change herself beginning on the outside in order for the man she loves to Love her rather than her giving her life to Jesus and letting him fix her. She is trying to create a marriage with this Christian fellow through works to merit love and that will always end in failure. She is putting herself into bondage rather than seeking for Jesus to be in the middle and the foundation of the relationship.

All in all, it is sin because she is going about trying to establish something of her own merits, in this case Love, and it's not the path in which Father has given for that.

Sin is not always an egregious act that breaks the 10, but can be a very subtle act of self no matter the intention behind it.

FireDragon76 said:

Yes, but we point to the means he actually ordained to save us, his Word and Sacraments. We simply believe and receive his grace, how we respond to that in no way contributes to our justification before God. We cannot earn or merit any part of our salvation.

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So, a sinner is supposed to show up at your church, with no guidance, with no preparation, and pray to receive the Sacraments? Can't you give any thought to the paths God might use to bring a sinner to your Sacraments? Or is everything that's not sacramental, damnable?

Calvin_1985 said:

It's like with this relationship mentioned by the OP. The young women is trying to change herself beginning on the outside in order for the man she loves to Love her rather than her giving her life to Jesus and letting him fix her. She is trying to create a marriage with this Christian fellow through works to merit love and that will always end in failure. She is putting herself into bondage rather than seeking for Jesus to be in the middle and the foundation of the relationship.

All in all, it is sin because she is going about trying to establish something of her own merits, in this case Love, and it's not the path in which Father has given for that.

Sin is not always an egregious act that breaks the 10, but can be a very subtle act of self no matter the intention behind it.

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Is that not supposed to be maybe be a part of the relationship, and arrangement God had or made or had in mind, between a husband and a wife, or male and female, distinctively, in say like a marriage, with a true male "head", or not...?

And, what if Her husband is not like Christ...? Is that not also setting "them" up for failure as well, sometimes...?

God Bless!

Mary Meg said:

So, a sinner is supposed to show up at your church, with no guidance, with no preparation, and pray to receive the Sacraments? Can't you give any thought to the paths God might use to bring a sinner to your Sacraments?

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We have no definitive teaching on prevenient grace, but yes, we welcome everyone to come and receive the grace of God.

We traditionally do rely primarily on an attractional model of mission. We do however have parachurch ministries and outreach, such as The Lutheran Hour or Davey and Goliath. Lutherans live out their vocations serving their neighbor, and that is our primary witness to the Gospel.

Neogaia777 said:

Is that not supposed to be maybe be a part of the relationship, and arrangement God had or made or had in mind, between a husband and a wife, or male and female, distinctively, in say like a marriage, with a true male "head", or not...?

And, what if Her husband is not like Christ...? Is that not also setting "them" up for failure as well, sometimes...?

God Bless!

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I will answer your question later tonight

Calvin_1985 said:

I will answer your question later tonight

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OK...?

God Bless!

Forgive me and don't be offended if that's your real name, but ... I keep wanting to read your name as Lucian Hobbitdoc.

Changing her behavior only prevents her from committing new sins. If she doesn't repent of those sins that she's already committed, it won't merit her much (if anything).

nvm

Lucian Hodoboc said:

To give a more particular example: let's say that an agnostic girl who used to live a depraved life (engaged in promiscuity, fornication, drugs etc.) falls in love with a Christian guy and he reciprocates her love, but he tells her that they can only get married if she strives to repent and stop sinning. She doesn't believe in God, but because she is very much in love with the Christian guy, she quits all her previous sinful habits. She starts living a life that could be considered righteous (she dresses modestly, changes her behavior and quits all drugs and all forms of fornication), she attends church and even tries to pray, but she only does so in order to please her partner, without believing that God actually exists. She is honest to her boyfriend about her lack of belief and about the fact that she has turned over a new leaf out of love for him, not out of sincere Christian repentance. Should he marry her? Would her change of lifestyle amount to anything in God's eyes, or will she still be damned at the end of her days?

Answers from Christians belonging to all denominations are welcomed.

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Never marry an ex-inappropriate content star bro. It never ends well.

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Should he marry her?

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None of what you mention has a lot of bearing on should he marry here...we are not to be unequally yoked or to marry a none Christian, it's scriptural.

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Would her change of lifestyle amount to anything in God's eyes, or will she still be damned at the end of her days?

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Unless she accepts Christ as here savior, she's out of luck. Her works are good but the faith in God is non existent.

See, even non Christians have people that have to straiten out in order to marry another non Christian, so that stuff doesn't matter, it's the belief in God, and that we are acting right for him that matters.

It would be wrong if you would to it out of fear of losing justification before God, or to get saved, or to maintain salvation. Also you would never overcome the sin if you think with this mindset, it would come back on you stronger. When you tell someone not to do something in this way, the temptation to do it will be stronger. That's how our flesh works.

If it's out of love for God and your neighbors, and because it hurts you and you know it's wrong and you know that's not who you are anymore or how God sees you, and you know you are a new creation in Christ and you want to walk in the new man and new spirit then that's good. That's how everyone should "abstain" from sin, by resting in Jesus and relying on his grace. From not even desiring to do it because you are a new person in Christ and because you love God and are focused on Jesus Christ and good things, not focused on sin and the law. And knowing you are a new person in Christ and are eternally secure and saved by his grace alone through faith no matter what, then that's a good thing. You can overcome many things this way by relying on his grace and sin doesn't even become a big issue to you, you don't even think about it (though we will always sin). Sin has no power over us when we abide in Jesus Christ. The problem is it is hard for the flesh to do this and think this way. Everyone always wants to overcome things in their own strength or believe how they behave plays a role in their salvation, and not Jesus alone. We should crucify our flesh when walking with God. But we need to remember we are saved by what he did on the cross alone, not what we do.

Mary Meg said:

I don't understand this. Why is abstaining from sin for the wrong reasons also sin?

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Abstaining from sin to get saved is actually worse than whatever sin you are trying to abstain from. Doing this would be the worst sin of all and would actually be the only thing that really brings you to hell believe it or not. Because it's denying the gospel and finished work of the cross, and relying on dead works of the law and our own effort to be saved and justified before God. We must never forsake our faith and belief in his finished work, that's the greatest sin of all if we do that. So motive really does matter. Certain motives can lead to destruction, while others are pure and holy.

Mary Meg said:

I don't understand this. Why is abstaining from sin for the wrong reasons also sin?
Isn't sin deliberately doing something against God's will? And isn't it God's will that we not engage in these behaviors? So if we're deliberately NOT engaging in these behaviors, for whatever reason, aren't we in some sense obeying God?

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Yes, here is what Paul said about the Gentiles who didn't have the revelation of God's laws. Their conscience guiding them...it isn't sin to do/not do what pleases God, whether one is a believer or not a believer.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.