Is abstaining from sin worth anything if done for the wrong reasons?

[Mary Meg]

Jesus said that looking on a woman to lust after her was adultery.

Yes, so? You're talking about actual sins. In the OP's example, the person is avoiding sins.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, so? You're talking about actual sins. In the OP's example, the person is avoiding sins.

By having sinless thoughts.........

 

[fhansen]

Is abstaining from sin worth anything if it is done for the wrong reasons? For example, if a person abstains from sin because they don't want to disappoint people or saints instead of abstaining out of love for God, is the abstinence from sin in such a case a sin in itself?

To give a more particular example: let's say that an agnostic girl who used to live a depraved life (engaged in promiscuity, fornication, drugs etc.) falls in love with a Christian guy and he reciprocates her love, but he tells her that they can only get married if she strives to repent and stop sinning. She doesn't believe in God, but because she is very much in love with the Christian guy, she quits all her previous sinful habits. She starts living a life that could be considered righteous (she dresses modestly, changes her behavior and quits all drugs and all forms of fornication), she attends church and even tries to pray, but she only does so in order to please her partner, without believing that God actually exists. She is honest to her boyfriend about her lack of belief and about the fact that she has turned over a new leaf out of love for him, not out of sincere Christian repentance. Should he marry her? Would her change of lifestyle amount to anything in God's eyes, or will she still be damned at the end of her days?

Answers from Christians belonging to all denominations are welcomed.

I can't help but wonder how perfectly pure any of our intentions are with regard to God. Fear is generally considered the first, and most servile, factor in coming to Him. Next is desire for reward. Lastly, and the truly pure motivation, is to love Him, ultimately with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength. This is a tall order, not accomplished all at once. And love tends to exclude sin by its nature; it's the right way, the Christian and New Covenant motivation, for fulfilling the Law.

Anyway, God takes us from where we are. Turning to Him is a step by step process, truth be told, that involves increasingly coming to know and love Him, with increased obedience the natural result. Maybe she's on that path, on first steps. God knows her heart; we can only observe as best we can and see if any fruit blossoms or not, praying and helping the best we can in the meanwhile.

 

[Mary Meg]

By having sinless thoughts.........

I don't understand what you mean.

 

[Calvin_1985]

Is abstaining from sin worth anything if it is done for the wrong reasons? For example, if a person abstains from sin because they don't want to disappoint people or saints instead of abstaining out of love for God, is the abstinence from sin in such a case a sin in itself?

To give a more particular example: let's say that an agnostic girl who used to live a depraved life (engaged in promiscuity, fornication, drugs etc.) falls in love with a Christian guy and he reciprocates her love, but he tells her that they can only get married if she strives to repent and stop sinning. She doesn't believe in God, but because she is very much in love with the Christian guy, she quits all her previous sinful habits. She starts living a life that could be considered righteous (she dresses modestly, changes her behavior and quits all drugs and all forms of fornication), she attends church and even tries to pray, but she only does so in order to please her partner, without believing that God actually exists. She is honest to her boyfriend about her lack of belief and about the fact that she has turned over a new leaf out of love for him, not out of sincere Christian repentance. Should he marry her? Would her change of lifestyle amount to anything in God's eyes, or will she still be damned at the end of her days?

Answers from Christians belonging to all denominations are welcomed.

The answer I can give is this: It will only end in bondage for that young woman. Changing all of her actions and outward appaerance is like putting a patch on an old pair of a Jeans. It may look good on the surface and meet the desires they have immediately, but eventually the patch will wear away and the hole of the jeans that were covered would be worse than before. She will end up wearing herself out trying to please him with the wrong things and the core will be left desolate. I have a personal testimony on this and can tell you that it will only work for a very small time before weariness would set in on her.

 

[Calvin_1985]

I don't understand this. Why is abstaining from sin for the wrong reasons also sin?
Isn't sin deliberately doing something against God's will? And isn't it God's will that we not engage in these behaviors? So if we're deliberately NOT engaging in these behaviors, for whatever reason, aren't we in some sense obeying God?

Read Jesus interactions with the Pharisees and this will give you Your answer.

 

[Mary Meg]

Read Jesus interactions with the Pharisees and this will give you Your answer.

We've been talking about the Pharisees in this thread, and no, I don't understand.

 

[truthisfreedom2019]

To marry her in that condition would be rushing things. For selvation, we must love and walk with God. It is important for us to share and express our selves with our partners and children. God is light. If we have not God we have not light to share. That which we would have to share is earthly love. Most every creature created has a level of love or they would not survive. They make their nests or dens, feed and protect their young, teach them how to find there on food. Earthly love alone is not enough. Them that know God knows true life. It is important to set up an environment that will provide life for one's children. A garden planted in the shade does not do well. It would not be Gods will at this time. That which is not blessed by God is not special.

 

[Calvin_1985]

We've been talking about the Pharisees in this thread, and no, I don't understand.

Well just read those interactions and then follow it up with reading the sermon on the mount. This will give you your answer.

 

[Foxfyre]

Is abstaining from sin worth anything if it is done for the wrong reasons? For example, if a person abstains from sin because they don't want to disappoint people or saints instead of abstaining out of love for God, is the abstinence from sin in such a case a sin in itself?

To give a more particular example: let's say that an agnostic girl who used to live a depraved life (engaged in promiscuity, fornication, drugs etc.) falls in love with a Christian guy and he reciprocates her love, but he tells her that they can only get married if she strives to repent and stop sinning. She doesn't believe in God, but because she is very much in love with the Christian guy, she quits all her previous sinful habits. She starts living a life that could be considered righteous (she dresses modestly, changes her behavior and quits all drugs and all forms of fornication), she attends church and even tries to pray, but she only does so in order to please her partner, without believing that God actually exists. She is honest to her boyfriend about her lack of belief and about the fact that she has turned over a new leaf out of love for him, not out of sincere Christian repentance. Should he marry her? Would her change of lifestyle amount to anything in God's eyes, or will she still be damned at the end of her days?

Answers from Christians belonging to all denominations are welcomed.

The Bible gives good advice when it says do not be yoked with unbelievers. And many unbelievers live what we would describe as a moral lifestyle. So he should probably not marry her until she has a relationship with the Christ.

But in the concept that sin is that which physically, spiritually, emotionally, mentally harms us and/or others whether directly or indirectly, in my opinion there is no wrong reason to stop sinning.

 

[FireDragon76]

But you're talking about merit, not whether something is sinful or not. Why would doing something good with an imperfect motive be against God's will?

Different Christian traditions view sin differently. In many, motivation is also something God judges. In fact, motivation can be even more important than the objective act itself. If somebody is a prostitute to buy drugs, that's different from somebody being a prostitute to feed their family, don't you think?

 

[FireDragon76]

To not sin for sinful reasons is really just.to replace one sin with another.

That's why somebody like Bonhoeffer could say "to escape sin may be the ultimate guilt". It's all about sinning boldly: owning your sinfulness and operating from an ethic of love rather than self-righteousness.

 

[FireDragon76]

. And this is how this devolves into self hatred

Not at all, because God's grace is completely free.

This sounds paradoxical but an Augustinian approach to sin actually leads to the greatest liberation possible. Pious Lutherans simply don't wallow in their sinfulness in despair, as that would simply be another form of attempting to earn ones repentance, they confess their sinfulness, believe Christ's own words of Absolution, and live in bold confidence as children of God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Is abstaining from sin worth anything if it is done for the wrong reasons? For example, if a person abstains from sin because they don't want to disappoint people or saints instead of abstaining out of love for God, is the abstinence from sin in such a case a sin in itself?

To give a more particular example: let's say that an agnostic girl who used to live a depraved life (engaged in promiscuity, fornication, drugs etc.) falls in love with a Christian guy and he reciprocates her love, but he tells her that they can only get married if she strives to repent and stop sinning. She doesn't believe in God, but because she is very much in love with the Christian guy, she quits all her previous sinful habits. She starts living a life that could be considered righteous (she dresses modestly, changes her behavior and quits all drugs and all forms of fornication), she attends church and even tries to pray, but she only does so in order to please her partner, without believing that God actually exists. She is honest to her boyfriend about her lack of belief and about the fact that she has turned over a new leaf out of love for him, not out of sincere Christian repentance. Should he marry her? Would her change of lifestyle amount to anything in God's eyes, or will she still be damned at the end of her days?

Answers from Christians belonging to all denominations are welcomed.

What ever stops you from sinning, it is the work of the Holy Spirit and He can manifest any which way He wants in order for you to abstain from a sinful act.
Blessings

 

[FireDragon76]

I go to a bridge intending to jump off. At the last minute I stop because I want to vote in the election next month.

Is that a good thing? Yes, because there is hope that in that month I will have a change of heart. But if I don't have a change of heart, sooner or later I'm going to go through with my intentions.

The hypothetical girl does a good thing by pursuing righteousness. There is the hope that it will "stick", and become heartfelt. That certainly happens. And even strictly in the natural, righteousness has its rewards. But if the girl doesn't take the step of faith at some point, she's in a precarious spot where all of it hangs on her love for the boy. And if that love wears thin later on, or breaks completely, then what?

Any step in the right direction is to be encouraged, in hope. But we should not mistake this for taking a true step of faith.

She's a zombie going through the motions of religion. What she needs is the miracle of grace.

Jesus rightly condemned people that travelled far and wide to make converts to this type of religion in his day, but he said it does no good because it makes them twice the sons of hell that they themselves were. True Christianity is not about cleaning up your life to become a better you, it's about dying and rising with Christ.

 

[Brightmoon]

She's a zombie going through the motions of religion. What she needs is the miracle of grace.

Jesus rightly condemned people that travelled far and wide to make converts to this type of religion in his day, but he said it does no good because it makes them twice the sons of hell that they themselves were. True Christianity is not about cleaning up your life to become a better you, it's about dying and rising with Christ.

people who stop being self destructive are “zombies” if they don’t do it under the auspices of your religions beliefs !?!?! Nah, ain’t buying !

 

[FireDragon76]

people who stop being self destructive are “zombies” if they don’t do it under the auspices of your religions beliefs !?!?! Nah, ain’t buying !

There's nothing wrong with trying to live a less self-destructive life, but it brings us no closer to God by doing so. The Good News is that God has already reconciled us to himself through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[Neogaia777]

"Is abstaining from sin worth anything if done for the wrong reasons?"

Answer: Yes... or rather, no... or rather "it's" "not worth anything" if done for the "wrong reasons" basically... filthy rags...

God Bless!

 

[Mary Meg]

Different Christian traditions view sin differently. In many, motivation is also something God judges. In fact, motivation can be even more important than the objective act itself. If somebody is a prostitute to buy drugs, that's different from somebody being a prostitute to feed their family, don't you think?

Sure. But in the OP's example, we're talking about somebody who is, say, abstaining from being a prostitute in order to please somebody she cares for and maybe gain a meaningful relationship. Abstaining from being a prostitute is a good, not a sin. Pursuing marriage is also a good. Sure, God desires for people to come to His grace and to do everything for the purest motives, out of no other reason than love for him. But to say that pursuing those goods, for less-than-pure motives, is worthless or even sinful -- I have a very hard time swallowing that. Don't some traditions believe in "common grace" -- the idea that God gives His grace to the world, even to unbelievers, and by that grace draws people to the good and through the good, ultimately to Him?

 

[Neogaia777]

Sure. But in the OP's example, we're talking about somebody who is, say, abstaining from being a prostitute in order to please somebody she cares for and maybe gain a meaningful relationship. Abstaining from being a prostitute is a good, not a sin. Pursuing marriage is also a good. Sure, God desires for people to come to His grace and to do everything for the purest motives, out of no other reason than love for him. But to say that pursuing those goods, for less-than-pure motives, is worthless or even sinful -- I have a very hard time swallowing that. Don't some traditions believe in "common grace" -- the idea that God gives His grace to the world, even to unbelievers, and by that grace draws people to the good and through the good, ultimately to Him?

I'm saying I don't want anything to do with it unless it is from pure reasons/motivations, ect...

As for me in my own life and existence though...

But, No, it's not worthless though, even when not done for or from entirely pure reasons/motivations, ect...

God Bless!