GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday
- Thread starter LoveGodsWord
- Start date
Awesome so we agree that worship on Saturday is not commanded by God and Sunday worship is completely acceptable then.
Yes. Agreed.
That seems to be what he now believes.
However, he doesn’t seem to know what actually constitutes a violation of the Sabbath.
Strange for. Member of the SDA.
I pray he gets free of that organization, and uses his time and talents to give others in that organization the truth about the Sabbath.
JLB
Upvote
0
You seem to be giving Paul equal status as Jesus; who was Paul that he could command THE Church to do anything; maybe he could command his specific children.
So there is your view and there is my view; I have to guess at yours from what you say; mine I understand.
Did Paul command his congregation to observe the Sabbath as Moses dictated; I am not sure what is being questioned here; is it the manner of exercising authority or the ritual of observing?
In any case these questions sidesteps the issue of observing the Sabbath. The fourth Commandment requires three things, REMEMBER the Sabbath day, do no work on the seventh day, and keep the seventh day Holy; and the Sabbath is a 24 hour event.
“”Is it a sin to go to Church on Sunday rather than Saturday?””
Yes, but it is the phrase “rather than” that is the problem. Is it a sin to go to Church on Sunday; it could be, Sunday refers to sun worship; Church on Sunday can never fulfil the fourth Commandment. Does going to church on the seventh day keep the Commandment; not by itself, the Commandment requires over 24 hour, meditation over the Sabbath and it's significance in the plan of salvation, it requires no work, it requires that what God has made Holy is kept Holy.
It is not a sin for God's people to congregate on the first day of the week except when it is a substitute for God's Commandment to congregate on the seventh day.
“”Please show where Jesus or Paul commanded the Church to observe the Sabbath the way the law of Moses dictated. “”
This is back to front; Jesus is King therefore had a right to command in accordance with the Law, but not change the Law; only the RCC had/has the power to attempt to or perceive to change the Law. All things are established in the OT and confirmed in the NT; if the OT and NT disagree on a matter then the matter is not true.
Regarding the SDA and the Sabbath; Ellen white was essentially a Methodist and even after starting her first church which had a very long name, it had not occurred to her that there was anything wrong with Sunday; it was only after reading a book by a Baptist lady about the Sabbath did Ellen consider the Sabbath issue, (I have heard modern SDA's tell a different story). She found that God did not change the Sabbath to Sunday but men instituted an invalid custom in many ways at varying times. The ten tribes of Israel who split from Judah kept Sunday and were lost, being separated from God as well as being separated from Judah. In Christian times Many Christians kept Sunday so as to not be mistaken for Jews who were being persecuted and in this way may have forfeited their salvation:
Matthew 16:25 (RSV)
25 For whoever would save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Upvote
0
ace of hearts
Well-Known Member
- Nov 15, 2018
- 3,507
- 1,149
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
I know that Paul is a chosen vessel of God -
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
So it would seem correct Paul has authority from God. Then we must deal with divine inspiration. Because Paul was a chosen vessel I would say he was divinely inspired to write as he did and is on the level of Scripture as Peter indicates in -
2 Pet 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Not in Scripture. Paul never commanded any to keep any day holy. Paul isn't speaking of pagans in Rom 14 about this.
The 4th commandment requires more than this. It requires one to work six days. It requires all servants (doing the will of their master) to abstain from labor. This goes much further than personal rest. The 4th doesn't allow one to take advantage of another's sin.
What is this based on? Is there a requirement to keep the sabbath found in the NT?
Based on what?
Evidently you haven't read or don't understand Jer 31:31-33 and LK 22:20.
This is new to me. What Baptist lady do you refer to? I never heard this before.
Upvote
0
It wasn't my intention to discuss Paul the person, but rather your usage of him. I believe it is against forum rules to dispute Paul's authenticity. This particular thread discusses the Law and the Sabbath and those for the Law and the Sabbath use Paul to make their case and those against the Law and the Sabbath use Paul to make their case and as far as I can tell Paul does support both sides of the argument.
Upvote
0
Paul like Jesus teach us we are to obey the Lords commandments.
Do you know of any scriptures where Jesus or Paul declares it a sin to go to Church on Sunday?
JLB
Upvote
0
from Wikipedia.
The sabbath is one of the defining characteristics of seventh-day denominations, including Seventh Day Baptists, Seventh-day Adventists, the Seventh-Day Evangelist Church, the Church of God (7th Day) headquartered in Salem, West Virginia, the Church of God (Seventh Day) conferences, True Jesus Church, the United Church of God, and the Church of God, a Worldwide Association, among many others.
Seventh Day Baptists (SDBs) are a Baptist denomination which observes the Sabbath on the seventh-day of the week—Saturday—in accordance with the Biblical Sabbath of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:8, Deuteronomy 5:12). The movement originated in mid-17th century England and spread within a few years to the British colonies in North America. Today, the Seventh Day Baptist World Federation represents over 50,000 members in 22 countries worldwide, of whom over 20,000 reside in India and almost 5,000 reside in the United States.[1]
Upvote
0
I believe this thread is about, is the Lords commandments the ten or not the ten.
I do not know why you are asking me if there is a scripture where Jesus or God (and they are the only ones who could do it) declares it is a sin to go to Church on Sunday. I answered this question for the other bloke who ignored the answer.
The question is interesting. I am not aware that God has required His people to congregate on the Sabbath yet Jesus's custom or tradition was to attend the Temple on the Sabbath. Going to Church on Sunday would be a sin if it substituted the keeping of the Sabbath. Going to Church on Sunday would be a sin if in the going the commandments were broken; like bowing to graven images.
Keeping the Law is difficult because of misunderstanding; there around ten things that must not be done and around four things that must be done. The Law is not kept by standing around not doing ten things or by standing around doing four things. One keeps the Law by living ones life with God central to every thing one does; God being present and one keeping the Law in conjunction with God is to be in covenant with Him, and not entering in is where the Jews typically failed. The Law should not be a weight on ones shoulders but a platform under ones feet, as a rock foundation.
When is it a sin to carry a bucket of water across a paddock to feed a thirsty cow? If the water was stolen; if damage was done to someone else's property in the process.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
To me your questions are nonsensical; and like asking Mohammad, is God moon shaped or Sun shaped.
We are operating in different universes or on different pages and the covenant is where we separate. For me what is called the new covenant is fiction. Jeremiah first speaks of a new covenant and he specifies two differences: those in covenant with God would know the Law without having to learn it, and second, the sins of the father would no longer visit his children for three generations.
There are other differences such as Jesus is the moderator and no longer Moses, but none of these changes are changes to the covenant only changes to the administration of it.
The old covenant establishes all things the new covenant confirms all those things, brings promises and terms of contract in to a reality. Christ's presence authenticates the OT and the OT authenticates Christ.
Upvote
0
Remember the Pharisees they claimed their Law would not permit them to kill Jesus so they asked the Romans to do it, even though they were prepared to stone Mary. I am not aware of people being put to death for working on the Sabbath and I believe the scripture refers to God causing people to die; but every body dies so has every one worked on the Sabbath. Exodus 31;14 equates being put to death with being cut off from Israel the same as not being circumcised so this death could be the second death.
The Church doesn't put people to death today but on previous days they have done. There is a state in the US formed by Puritans who had a Law that said anyone working on Sunday would be put to death by hanging; no one was charged or put to death but 35 year back that law was still valid and not repealed.
The Church has killed people for keeping the Sabbath that is what the Inquisitions were about.
Upvote
0
So you believe the Church should follow the law of Moses and put to death those who work on the Sabbath?
Can you share some scriptures from Jesus or the Apostles, where they command that those who work on the Sabbath are to be put to death?
JLB
Upvote
0
I believe God's people should follow God's Law; Moses may have coloured God's Law as he applied it to Israel, bur Moses did not own the Law.
As for being put to death: Moses might be different, but when God threatens always implied
is “unless you repent”.
You over look a substantial part of the covenant, seeing that all have sinned, and that is repentance; you probably think all those sheep died in vain, all that blood shed for the remission of sin was of no effect.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (NKJV)
16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor shall the children be put to death for their fathers; a person shall be put to death for his own sin.
2 Samuel 12:13 (NKJV)
13 So David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die.
Ezekiel 33:14-15 (NKJV)
14 Again, when I say to the wicked, 'You shall surely die,' if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right,
15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
John 8:20-24 (NKJV)
20 These words Jesus spoke in the treasury, as He taught in the temple; and no one laid hands on Him, for His hour had not yet come.
21 Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."
22 So the Jews said, "Will He kill Himself, because He says, 'Where I go you cannot come'?"
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Moses was the mediator of that covenant which is why it was called the law of Moses.
Jesus is the Mediator of the New Covenant, which is why it’s called the law of Christ.
The law of Moses was nailed to the cross, having been abolished.
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Ephesians 2:14-16
Key Verse:
- having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances
again
And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17
Key Verse:
- having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
The word it refers to the law of Moses.
Paul is quoting directly from the book of Deuteronomy when he says
That was “against us”.
“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;
Deuteronomy 31:26
JLB
Upvote
0
What was nailed to the cross was Jesus and that was a fulfilment of prophesy; all that was required old covenant wise was the shedding of blood for the remission of sin.
Regarding Ephesians 2:14-16. and the part key verse you quote: “”having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances “”
I don't use Paul, but I agree he was very intelligent; he was a pharisee and thereby a trained Rabbi. Rabbi's teach by debate; so these verses you quote out of context of a small part of one side of a running debate.
Looking at the key verse out of context I say Paul was mistaken according to the word of God. But these words would please most Jews.
Enmity, that is, the Law. Enmity means hatred or state of hostility?
What Law is hatred or what Law is a state of hostility?
I found this on the web:
Was God's Law Nailed to the Cross?
To begin, it should be understood that the word "ordinances" in Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15 does not refer to God's laws. It is translated from the Greek word dogma and refers generally to opinions, judgments, and decrees. Such ordinances could be public decrees by government officials or religious decrees by religious officials. We should, however, treat these two verses separately because they deal with different subjects.
I do not think Paul is quoting Duet 31:26, which refers to the Law of God which could include the ordinances that govern the Sanctuary and the Priests duties in it, as well as the annual Sabbaths. If these were what Paul was referring to, God's Law, what God calls perfect Paul calls hateful.
Many Jews did call the Law and Christ, hateful, and with good reason:
Isaiah 28:17-21 (NKJV)
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.
18 Your covenant with death will be annulled, And your agreement with Sheol will not stand; When the overflowing scourge passes through, Then you will be trampled down by it.
19 As often as it goes out it will take you; For morning by morning it will pass over, And by day and by night; It will be a terror just to understand the report."
20 For the bed is too short to stretch out on, And the covering so narrow that one cannot wrap himself in it.
21 For the LORD will rise up as at Mount Perazim, He will be angry as in the Valley of Gibeon-- That He may do His work, His awesome work, And bring to pass His act, His unusual act.
Upvote
0
Paul is appeasing Jews who were unable to covenant with God, but this is what God did,He made Jesus a stumbling block for the Lawless.
Isaiah 8:11-16 (NKJV)
11 For the LORD spoke thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying:
12 "Do not say, 'A conspiracy,' Concerning all that this people call a conspiracy, Nor be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.
13 The LORD of hosts, Him you shall hallow; Let Him be your fear, And let Him be your dread.
14 He will be as a sanctuary, But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense To both the houses of Israel, As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble; They shall fall and be broken, Be snared and taken."
16 Bind up the testimony, Seal the law among my disciples.
Isaiah 28:16-17 (NKJV)
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily.
17 Also I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the plummet; The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters will overflow the hiding place.
Matthew 7:22-23 (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
ace of hearts
Well-Known Member
- Nov 15, 2018
- 3,507
- 1,149
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Private
Upvote
0
Similar threads
