What Did Paul Mean By These Words?

John 1720 · Mar 27, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Let me just say first off that this is not a set up question. I am definitely leaning in a certain direction, but the following is an honest inquiry for input.

In Galatians 4:3, Colossians 2:8, and Colossians 2:20, Paul used the expression τῶν στοιχείων τοῦ κόσμου, which as I will show in a second translates into "the principles of the world." What principles was he talking about by this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

For starters, about the translation, he uses the phrase in combination with the phrase "the traditions of man" and the word "philosophies" in Colossians 2:8. The reading is "βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς ἔσται ὁ συλαγωγῶν διὰ τῆς φιλοσοφίας καὶ κενῆς ἀπάτης, κατὰ τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου καὶ οὐ κατὰ Χριστόν" which translates as, "Take heed that there not be anyone making a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of man, according to the principles of the world, and not according to Christ." So there is a clear common element to these phrases; all refer in general to false, naturalistic (i.e. humanistic) teachings.

Then he uses just the word "principles" (στοιχεῖα) as a stand alone in Galatians 4:9, "how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which you again desire to serve anew?," referring back to the full phrase τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου in Galatians 4:3.

When you take all these things into consideration, the word alone must mean "principles" and the entire phrase means "principles of the world."

So the question again becomes: What principles specifically was he talking about by the use of this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

Blessings in Christ. Any and all responses are appreciated.

Hi Sir,
I believe the principle of the world, at its base, is self righteousness, self sufficiency and any other self you want to put in back of the hyphen. Now, within those principles, it's quite okay to have God as your co-pilot as long as you are still calling the shots and are Lord of Yourself. You could even get behind some like minded benefactor as a cheerleader, if that is the path of least resistance that might bring you closer to the maxim of that principle.
After the Lord praised Peter for confessing Him as the Christ, the Son of the Living God, He sharply and openly rebukes the spirit that had taken up residence in the mind and heart of Peter. Unwittingly, in this instance, Peter is now found to be serving the interests of Satan and no longer the interests of God. He is doing so by trying to deter Christ's crucifixion; and in essence is essentially attempting to thwart God's plan.

Mark 8:31-33 And He (Jesus) began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. He spoke this word openly. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him. But when He had turned around and looked at His disciples, He rebuked Peter, saying, "Get behind Me, Satan! For you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men."

I believe there are many things that are God gives us for our good, along the way, that the Devil tries to turn around to his own interest. I think he does that in order to keep man on the throne instead of God. They can even be things that point us to God and Divine things meant for our healing and restoration. One example I think is instructive would be the case of Moses, when he lifted up the effigy in the desert. Of course we now know, thanks to the Lord, that the effigy was symbolic of the cross. Even it's function is reminiscent of the perfect function of the cross, since the Israelites who fixed their eyes upon it were saved from the poisonous venom of the serpents who were attacking them and killing them. [ John 3:14 ; Numbers 21:8 and 2 Kings 18:4 ] But instead of this becoming a symbol and sign that would point them to Christ they corrupted what God had given them as a pointer to the perfect sacrifice. Accordingly, within the principles of this world, they simply made it into an idol they could carry around with them, as a kind of get out of jail free card - as if that physical effigy had any power of its own.

In like manner I think the Law was given as a golden standard of God's holiness which He wants to induce in His children. The Law without one mutable jot or tittle was to be fulfilled as Jesus said in Matthew 5:18 . However the Pharisees made it into a human tool of self righteousness that put a yoke upon the people they sought to have control over [ Matthew 23:4 ]. The Law also pointed us to Christ, as He was the One who perfectly fulfilled it, clearing the way for the Holy Spirit writing it on our hearts rather than stone.

So, I think there were many provisions that God gave us along the way to foreshadowed the perfection of Christ and His perfect atoning sacrifice. However, I surmise that anything that is less than perfect is subject to being mutable. Satan can try and twist anything finite and pervert it towards his own ends and designs. He can even do that with all those beautiful symbols of God's love and pointers to the perfect sacrifice of Christ. But He cannot do that with the perfect and eternal sacrifice of Christ and His cross, which is Divinely and Eternally certified by the Resurrection. That was the culmination, as you know, of Jesus' ministry. And as great as that ministry was Satan still tried to modify it to his own designs. We see that in the case of Peter. We see that his intention of just wanting to keep Jesus here and set up Christ's kingdom on earth (he did this again at the transfiguration). This was a proposition Satan had offered Jesus previously in the wilderness that was in complete opposition to the Word of God. Peter, as we all do, understand the pattern and principles of this world and we revert to them as often as we are not led by the Spirit of God. The antithesis of that pattern and principle is what the Lord righteously fulfilled at Golgotha. There He turned sin and death on its head and destroying Satan's power over us.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir and I don't mean to go on but cannot underemphasize how the Lord's sacrifice to restore us is our perfect sacrifice, unlike the shadows and symbols that only point to Him. His is an incorruptible and eternal sacrifice emblazoned and instituted before the foundation of the world. Its perfection also runs completely counter to the principles of this world. God's love always has. It rejects survival and says I will die for the love of you; it does not return evil for evil but perseveres with goodness despite the intensity of evil; it stands in the gap for those who deserve to reap what we have sown; it restores and makes whole all that was hopelessly broken and beyond human repair. This is why I believe Paul was so upset with the Galatians abandoning the perfect righteous sacrifice for its imperfect predecessors. They were abandoning the perfect and eternal sacrifice and the revelation that was made visible through Christ for something less; the things that the principles of this world embedded within the minds of men could turn to keep Satan's chains, which are the chains of all of fallen mankind, upon us. With man it is impossible to escape those chains but with God all things are possible, and so Christ is the Way where there was no way. Glory to God!
I love this verse by Paul:

Romans 8:38-29 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All I can do is add my Amen!
In Christ, John 1720

parousia70 · Mar 27, 2019

Michael Collum said:
According the new covenant writings, following the mosaic law communicates the following things to God:

1) That you choose to be judged by the Mosaic law
2) That you choose to be under the curse of the law
3) That Jesus died in vain

Since I do not choose to be under the law, it does not apply to me.

If you choose to be under the law, don't try to infect others' freedom in the Holy Spirit.

Well, nobody can "follow" the Mosaic Law today, much less "choose" to be under it, so you're safe.

Oldmantook · Mar 27, 2019

Michael Collum said:
The law was, as you said. It no longer has a purpose.

The passages provided support my belief plenty, you being convinced is not necessary.

Where did I write the law no longer has it's purpose?? The law's purpose is to point toward Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of the law. I replied to every verse that you supplied citing evidence for your view demonstrating to you that they do not mean what you purport them to mean. You did not bother to offer a counter-reply which is your prerogative but serves to further weaken your view. Since you believe that the law no longer has a purpose then I can I assume the 10 Commandments no longer has it's purpose? According to your view the moral code no longer exists since the law no longer exists. That is very problematic.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 27, 2019

parousia70 said:
Well, nobody can "follow" the Mosaic Law today, much less "choose" to be under it, so you're safe.

If only that were so.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 27, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Where did I write the law no longer has it's purpose?? The law's purpose is to point toward Jesus Christ who is the fulfillment of the law. I replied to every verse that you supplied citing evidence for your view demonstrating to you that they do not mean what you purport them to mean. You did not bother to offer a counter-reply which is your prerogative but serves to further weaken your view. Since you believe that the law no longer has a purpose then I can I assume the 10 Commandments no longer has it's purpose? According to your view the moral code no longer exists since the law no longer exists. That is very problematic.

Intriguing lawyer speech.

parousia70 · Mar 27, 2019

Michael Collum said:
If only that were so.

It is...and quite demonstrably so.
Just Read Leviticus, and I challenge you to name even one single living person today who follows it.

Ask yourself How many people are stoned to death each year by people who follow the law, as the law prescribes?

And Who are "all thy males" today who follow this:
Exodus 34:23
Three times in the year shall all thy males appear before the Lord Jehovah, the God of Israel.

If Exodus 34:23 is not being honored by Jehovah then neither will any other promise of the Law of Moses be honored. As we know, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant is the only covenant one can have with God from now and forever.

I often challenge folks to find one human on the planet that observes the Law of Moses. It's impossible. There isn't one. That's because there is no Law System extant anywhere on the planet to accommodate or demand observance. It went up in smoke at AD 70.

Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses consists in Temple practices/rituals/Levitical duties. The Law of Moses does not consist in reading a book. It consists in strict OBSERVANCE. There is no way to observe the Law of Moses and hasn't been since AD 70.

Oldmantook · Mar 27, 2019

Michael Collum said:
Intriguing lawyer speech.

If you say so; too bad I don't make a lawyer's salary.

We agree to disagree.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 27, 2019

parousia70 said:
It is...and quite demonstrably so.
Just Read Leviticus, and I challenge you to name even one single living person today who follows it.

Ask yourself How many people are stoned to death each year by people who follow the law, as the law prescribes?

And Who are "all thy males" today who follow this:
Exodus 34:23
Three times in the year shall all thy males appear before the Lord Jehovah, the God of Israel.

If Exodus 34:23 is not being honored by Jehovah then neither will any other promise of the Law of Moses be honored. As we know, the Old Covenant was fulfilled and the New Covenant is the only covenant one can have with God from now and forever.

I often challenge folks to find one human on the planet that observes the Law of Moses. It's impossible. There isn't one. That's because there is no Law System extant anywhere on the planet to accommodate or demand observance. It went up in smoke at AD 70.

Nearly 1/2 of the Law of Moses consists in Temple practices/rituals/Levitical duties. The Law of Moses does not consist in reading a book. It consists in strict OBSERVANCE. There is no way to observe the Law of Moses and hasn't been since AD 70.

Theological reasoning doesn't erase actual experience.

parousia70 · Mar 27, 2019

Michael Collum said:
Theological reasoning doesn't erase actual experience.

Then why don’t you demonstrate the actual experience? Name somebody - anybody- who is actually, experientially following, observing and under the law today.

Take as much time as you need.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 27, 2019

parousia70 said:
Then why don’t you demonstrate the actual experience? Name somebody - anybody- who is actually, experientially following, observing and under the law today.

Take as much time as you need.

The experience is when I enter a church that is "under the law" it's like the Holy Spirit is blocked somehow. As it is written, if people choose to be under a heavy curse, then I should let them. So I let them, and go my separate way.

Hidden In Him · Mar 27, 2019

parousia70 said:
Of course I’m preterist.
So are you.
All Christians are.
We only vary by degree.

I'm a Futurist to the core, parousia, so it's disheartening to know I've lost my Christian status after 30+ years of walking with the Lord, LoL.

But all kidding aside, the use of στοιχεῖον in 2 Peter was never really relevant to the discussion presented in the OP anyway, and we seem to have drifted into a debate over eschatology.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for the posts. Maybe we'll discuss that some other time.

Hidden In Him · Mar 27, 2019

eleos1954 said:
Hi,

High Sabbaths are considered to be a subset of the feast sabbaths. Only those feast sabbaths that coincide with the weekly Sabbath are regarded as High Sabbaths.

I encourage you to learn more about all the sabbaths feasts etc. The "picture" of Jesus is all over them .... it's quite fascinating/interesting. I found this link (appears to be accurate) .... not real sure who owns it ... but you can go do some internet research on them and find out about them. This link deals mostly with the sabbaths connected with passover week The Passover Week and the Two Sabbaths

I appreciate this. I have my hands full right now unfortunately, which is why I was asking for a succinct answer if possible. But not many things can be treated in a sentence or two, so I understand.

About the invitation, I will keep it in mind, and I appreciate your kindness in making such a friendly offer. Those who discuss scriptural issues with you with an honest intent just to search things out together in peace are in the minority, so it's a credit to you for making such a kind offer.

Hopefully the Lord will give us some time together down the road.

Blessings in Christ,
Your friend,
Hidden

Hidden In Him · Mar 27, 2019

2PhiloVoid said:
Sure, I see where you're coming from on this, and I wouldn't discount the presence of Jewish philosophical derivatives that floated around along with the other Hellenized odds and ends that permeated the culture of that time. You're description does seem sensible in an intertextual way, especially with the Hellenized, proto-Gnostic, ideas that were being contended with by Timothy and for which Paul felt he had to instruct him so as to stand resolute. It makes sense, really.

Thanks for the insight, HIH!

I don't know if I made that much sense, LoL, but I'm still thinking it over. The Spirit tends to lead me in certain directions until an interpretation fills out completely with full textual, grammatical and scriptural support, so hopefully that will be the case again here.

Btw, meant to say it was nice seeing you again. I've been away from this place for a while. Things seem to be a little more peaceful compared to what I remember of it last, LoL.

Blessings in Christ, brother, and nice to be talking with you again. :oldthumbsup:

Hidden

Hidden In Him · Mar 27, 2019

paul becke said:
Briefly : the 'pecking order' of society : The best justice money can buy (both juridical and in relation to the ordering of society), and 'Money talks, b/s walks' are two of the world's watch-words, aren't they ?

A person with a very modest income would have difficulty obtaining a loan from a bank, whereas a glib type of character who looks as though he 'knows his way round the block' would be quite enthusiasrtically welcomed. It's beautifully illustrated by the Parable of the Dishonest Steward, who was commended by his employer for trying to 'twist' him ! Jesus was saying :

'You see how purposeful worldlings are in identifying their goals, and going all-out to obtain them ? How is it God's servants, his flock, are so ambivalent about what is precious to them so much of the time - unlike those scoundrels ? Stop wavering between two choices and choose what you know to be right, without shilly-shallying or worse.'

Moreover, the principles of this world include an idolatry of worldly wisdom not at all based on spiritual wisdom : what is generally termed, 'intelligence', but is mostly anything but. You often hear or see on the media a reference to someone who died in an accident or from sickness, stating : 'And he/she was so intelligent, as if worldly wisdom were the sovereign virtue, or indeed, necessarily a virtue at all.' Many highly intelligent men are complete idiots, while the world puts them on a pedestal.

Our very judges and top barristers, at least in the UK, are generally drawn from the most worldly level of society, the least apt to dispense justice in the context of human problems, but super-effective at solving problems where money or commerce are concerned. It's the way of the world.

Well, I was looking for more of what the phrase meant in the context of the two New Testament letters, but I certainly agree with you on your application of how we might use the phrase today. Worldly principles and godly principles are often almost diametrically opposed to each other, and so are worldly vs. godly values, which I think is at the heart of it.

Blessings in Christ, and thanks for your response.

parousia70 · Mar 28, 2019

Michael Collum said:
The experience is when I enter a church that is "under the law" it's like the Holy Spirit is blocked somehow. As it is written, if people choose to be under a heavy curse, then I should let them. So I let them, and go my separate way.

Oh. So you’re simply inventing your own meaning for “under the Mosaic law” that has nothing to do with scripture. You’re not using any sort of biblical definition of “under the law of Moses”, you’re just making it up as you go, based on your icky feelings after visiting individual churches that don’t feel right to you.. Do I understand that correctly?

parousia70 · Mar 28, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
I'm a Futurist to the core,

So you disagree with the writer of Hebrews that the last days were already underway during Christ’s earthly ministry?
Hebrews 1:1-2

And you disagree with Peter that at least PART of Joel’s “last days” prophesy was being literally fulfilled before their eyes in their day? Acts 2:16-17

You would be alone in my experience if true. I’ve never met a Christian who disagrees with those scriptural assertions.

we seem to have drifted into a debate over eschatology.

The OP had heavy eschatological connotations, so I don’t see how delving into the eschatological ramifications is any sort of deviation, but if you want to bow out, I’ll respect your wish.

Gregory Thompson · Mar 28, 2019

parousia70 said:
Oh. So you’re simply inventing your own meaning for “under the Mosaic law” that has nothing to do with scripture. You’re not using any sort of biblical definition of “under the law of Moses”, you’re just making it up as you go, based on your icky feelings after visiting individual churches that don’t feel right to you.. Do I understand that correctly?

You do not understand correctly, you're not even trying.

Hidden In Him · Mar 28, 2019

parousia70 said:
So you disagree with the writer of Hebrews that the last days were already underway during Christ’s earthly ministry?
Hebrews 1:1-2

And you disagree with Peter that at least PART of Joel’s “last days” prophesy was being literally fulfilled before their eyes in their day? Acts 2:16-17

No, no. I believe in the partial fulfillment of end-time prophecy taking pace during NT times as foreshadowings, with their ultimate fulfillments coming in the times we are slowly approaching now.

But you are again leading me back into a discussion I'd rather not have, so let's put the kibosh on it for now.

parousia70 said:
The OP had heavy eschatological connotations, so I don’t see how delving into the eschatological ramifications is any sort of deviation, but if you want to bow out, I’ll respect your wish.

Nearly everything I post has heavy eschatological connotations, LoL, but in this case it was actually just a search for the accurate definition of a term.

Bless you, brother, and we'll catch up on the prophecy stuff later. I respect your intellect, even though I can tell we are a million miles apart on our interpretations.

miamited · Mar 28, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
Let me just say first off that this is not a set up question. I am definitely leaning in a certain direction, but the following is an honest inquiry for input.

In Galatians 4:3, Colossians 2:8, and Colossians 2:20, Paul used the expression τῶν στοιχείων τοῦ κόσμου, which as I will show in a second translates into "the principles of the world." What principles was he talking about by this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

For starters, about the translation, he uses the phrase in combination with the phrase "the traditions of man" and the word "philosophies" in Colossians 2:8. The reading is "βλέπετε μή τις ὑμᾶς ἔσται ὁ συλαγωγῶν διὰ τῆς φιλοσοφίας καὶ κενῆς ἀπάτης, κατὰ τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν ἀνθρώπων, κατὰ τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου καὶ οὐ κατὰ Χριστόν" which translates as, "Take heed that there not be anyone making a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of man, according to the principles of the world, and not according to Christ." So there is a clear common element to these phrases; all refer in general to false, naturalistic (i.e. humanistic) teachings.

Then he uses just the word "principles" (στοιχεῖα) as a stand alone in Galatians 4:9, "how do you turn again to the weak and beggarly principles to which you again desire to serve anew?," referring back to the full phrase τὰ στοιχεῖα τοῦ κόσμου in Galatians 4:3.

When you take all these things into consideration, the word alone must mean "principles" and the entire phrase means "principles of the world."

So the question again becomes: What principles specifically was he talking about by the use of this repeated phrase, and why did he refer to them as such?

Blessings in Christ. Any and all responses are appreciated.

Hi HIH,

I'm not prepared to address all of your Scriptural references, but only Colossians 2:8. It is my understanding that 'principles of the world' (or whatever phrase is used in the various translations) in this text is referencing the basic laws that we refer to as 'laws of nature' or 'scientific understandings of how things come about naturally'. In other words, this particular and specific piece of Paul's writing is refuting any understanding that we might have of how the creation came to be through natural processes and the physical laws that we see in the creation. It then goes on to say that any understanding or explanation that is not based on the work of the Christ, is bogus.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

parousia70 · Mar 28, 2019

Hidden In Him said:
No, no. I believe in the partial fulfillment of end-time prophecy taking pace during NT times as foreshadowings, with their ultimate fulfillments coming in the times we are slowly approaching now.

Which, as I mentioned, would be a classic "Partial Preterist " position.
What you have just professed is something Only partial preterists believe.
No reason to run from or be ashamed of your own preterism.

Yes it would be fun to explore further w you... drop on by the eschatology board sometime

Cheers!

What Did Paul Mean By These Words?

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