Paul was speaking from his life as a Pharisee in Romans 7 and not as a Christian.

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In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
 

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What we have to do is to compare what Paul is saying in Romans 7 in the present tense, with passages where he is giving his testimony of his own conversion to Christ. If he uses the present tense as a rhetorical strategy, then you would think that he would have done the same when he recounts past experiences. But if he has never used the strategy at any other time when he has recounted things in his past, then it is fairly clear that he is not using any such rhetorical strategy in Romans 7. This is hermeneutics 101.

Your first quote is pretty cunning, because it implies that those who disagree with your view are "wresting Paul's writing to their own destruction". This implies that your view of what Paul is saying is correct and those who disagree with you are wrong.

In writing to the Corinthians, Paul said that he did not come to them with the enticing words of man's wisdom. This shows me that Paul did not use rhetorical "tricks" to embellish his message. He said what he meant, and meant what he said. Therefore when recounting past experience, he speaks in the past tense, and when he speaks of present experience, he speaks in the present tense. If we do a study of all the tenses Paul used, we will see that is true.
 
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Der Alte

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All of us, including myself, tend to interpret the Bible through the lens of whichever denomination we belong to.
I'm going to refer to Romans but this applies to all the NT books and writers. I think we should ask ourselves how would the 1st century Romans, for instance, to whom Paul was writing understand Romans 7? Would they understand that while Paul was speaking in the present tense, he was supposedly talking about before Damascus road as has been suggested in this thread? If Paul was using "rhetorical" tricks, would former pagan Roman Christians understand Paul's Jewish influenced figures of speech?
 
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All of us, including myself, tend to interpret the Bible through the lens of whichever denomination we belong to.
I'm going to refer to Romans but this applies to all the NT books and writers. I think we should ask ourselves how would the 1st century Romans, for instance, to whom Paul was writing understand Romans 7? Would they understand that while Paul was speaking in the present tense, he was supposedly talking about before Damascus road as has been suggested in this thread? If Paul was using "rhetorical" tricks, would former pagan Roman Christians understand Paul's Jewish influenced figures of speech?
A good point. My position has been that it was Paul's struggle after his conversion, but I viewed Dr. Gordon Fee's series on the Kingdom of God and he presents a very valid argument that it was Paul's struggle with sin while he was still under the law and his comment, "I thank God through Jesus Christ" was his transition from Law to grace.
 
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Paul was speaking to those who knew the Law.

"Since I am speaking to those who know the law, brothers and sisters, don't you know that the law rules over someone as long as he lives?" (Romans 7:1).

This would be the Old Law or the Torah, and obviously not the laws or commands given to us by Jesus and His followers.
 
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Paul seems to be speaking as a Christian.

25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Not only was Paul speaking as a Christian, he was speaking in the present tense. He was describing the daily struggle with the Christian's sin nature and choice to sin.

Some will respond by saying that Paul was speaking in the "historical present", kinda like a walk down memory lane. But that is obviously not what Romans 7 says.

Daniel Wallace's Greek Grammar, Beyond the Basics, says this about the historical present, on page 527: "However, with 'legei' and other verbs introducing (in)direct discourse, the historical present is for the most part a stereotyped idiom that has lost its original rhetorical powers. 'legei' and 'legousin' is by far the most common verb used as a historical present, accounting for well over half of all the instances."

Interestingly, that verb is only found 1x in Romans, 3:8.

So, those who want to latch on to this historical present must PROVE that Paul was using such a tense in Romans 7.
 
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In Defending the true meaning of Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a small paragraph within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
Actually it appears he's speaking of his Christian experience. Notice the identical rhetoric he uses speaking to Christians in Galatians 5 "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."
 
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Actually it appears he's speaking of his Christian experience. Notice the identical rhetoric he uses speaking to Christians in Galatians 5 "I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

You are quoting the wrong book. In Romans 7:14-124, we read in the context where Paul says that he speaks to those who know the Law (See Romans 7:1). This would be the Law of Moses because that was the only Law that existed at the time by popularity. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers.

Romans 13:14 says cloth yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1, Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. Imagine Paul struggling with sin as a Christian telling believers to cleanse themsevles of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit? If he did not at least come close to doing this, he would be a hypocrite or he would be preaching a double message.

In Galatians 5:

Paul is talking to those who are wrongfully putting themselves under the false heresy of Circumcision Salvationism. In Galatians 5:2, Paul says to the Galatians that if they be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. This was a part of the heresy told to us at the Jerusalem council; There was a certain sect of Jews who were trying to deceive Christians that they had to:

(a) Be circumcised to be initially saved.
(b) Keep the whole of the Torah to be saved

(See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul was telling the Christians in Rome to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (See Romans 7:6). The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the 613 laws as a whole given to Israel. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers. For Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).
 
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You are quoting the wrong book. In Romans 7:14-124, we read in the context where Paul says that he speaks to those who know the Law (See Romans 7:1). This would be the Law of Moses because that was the only Law that existed at the time by popularity. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers.

Romans 13:14 says cloth yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1, Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. Imagine Paul struggling with sin as a Christian telling believers to cleanse themsevles of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit? If he did not at least come close to doing this, he would be a hypocrite or he would be preaching a double message.

In Galatians 5:

Paul is talking to those who are wrongfully putting themselves under the false heresy of Circumcision Salvationism. In Galatians 5:2, Paul says to the Galatians that if they be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. This was a part of the heresy told to us at the Jerusalem council; There was a certain sect of Jews who were trying to deceive Christians that they had to:

(a) Be circumcised to be initially saved.
(b) Keep the whole of the Torah to be saved

(See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul was telling the Christians in Rome to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (See Romans 7:6). The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the 613 laws as a whole given to Israel. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers. For Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).
I can see how an Arminian who believes in Entire Sanctification by faith, and how that a struggle with the flesh would be unacceptable and not consistent with his theology. Frankly, I don't see that an Arminian who believes in being saved today and lost tomorrow because of their failure to remain sinless, can have any assurance of salvation. In my years in the Pentecostal movement, which has a strong Arminian Holiness aspect to it, I saw many going time and time again for counselling because they were worried about their spiritual state, and could not accept the reality that perfect sanctification will not happen while we are in this body of sin and death. It will only be when we are with the Lord and in our glorified, sinless body, that we will be sinlessly perfect.

And so, while we are in this body, we will always have the struggle between the flesh and the spirit, sharing Paul's Romans 7 experience.

I will say, that I met a lot of judgmental people in the Pentecostal movement, who believed that those who were not sinlessly perfect were not right with God in some way and needed either counselling, correct, or even deliverance from demons!

Furthermore, Paul, describing his life as a Pharisee, said that he was blameless according to the Law. Therefore, he believed that he was doing everything right. That contradicts your take on Romans 7 where Paul says that he does not do everything right as he wants. As a Pharisee, he never had that notion at all.

Also, he did not have the Holy Spirit as a Pharisee, and his own spirit was dead, until he was born again on the Damascus Road. Therefore, having a new heart and spirit, and the indwelling Holy Spirit in conflict with his sinful body, caused him to say what he says in Romans 7. Only a born again Christian believer can have the Romans 7 experience. A zealous Pharisee as Paul was, and he said that his zeal was greater than any other Pharisee, would never have had that conflict, because his religion was totally in the flesh, and so there was no enlivened spirit or the Holy Spirit in him to bring him into the kind of conflict he describes in Romans 7.
 
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I can see how an Arminian who believes in Entire Sanctification by faith, and how that a struggle with the flesh would be unacceptable and not consistent with his theology.

Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead to spiritual death, and sins that do not lead to spiritual death (See: 1 John 5:16-17). In other words, I do not believe that a Christian has to reach a state of Sinless Perfection in order to be saved. Folks confuse the Bible talking about being perfect in certain aspects with being 100% Sinless and this is not the case. Matthew 5:48 is one example. Jesus is talking about four actions you can do so as to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (involving loving your enemies). It only in this aspect or way a person can be perfect but that does not mean that they not be imperfect in something else or in some other area. In other words, Matthew 5:43-48 is not dealing with reaching a state of Sinless Perfection, but it is referring to only aspect or characteristic in being perfect.

You said:
Frankly, I don't see that an Arminian who believes in being saved today and lost tomorrow

Okay. Stop right here. The Bible says in Hebrews 10:26 that if we willfull sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.

You said:
In my years in the Pentecostal movement, which has a strong Arminian Holiness aspect to it, I saw many going time and time again for counselling because they were worried about their spiritual state, and could not accept the reality that perfect sanctification will not happen while we are in this body of sin and death. It will only be when we are with the Lord and in our glorified, sinless body, that we will be sinlessly perfect.

I am not allowed to promote Sinless Perfectionism in this section of the forums.

You said:
And so, while we are in this body, we will always have the struggle between the flesh and the spirit, sharing Paul's Romans 7 experience.

But Paul was not speaking as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24, but he was speaking from his experience before he knew Jesus Christ. Paul said in the previous chapter, "But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life." (Romans 6:22). This is why Paul says in Romans 8, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4). How can the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled if somebody is always breaking the Law? How can one be a slave to doing righteousness if one is sinning? Jesu said, he that sins is a slave to sin (See: John 8:34).

You said:
I will say, that I met a lot of judgmental people in the Pentecostal movement, who believed that those who were not sinlessly perfect were not right with God in some way and needed either counselling, correct, or even deliverance from demons!

I am not surprised that there are false holiness teachers out there (Who do not understand the true way of how to live holy, etc.).

You said:
Furthermore, Paul, describing his life as a Pharisee, said that he was blameless according to the Law. Therefore, he believed that he was doing everything right. That contradicts your take on Romans 7 where Paul says that he does not do everything right as he wants. As a Pharisee, he never had that notion at all.

Not the same covenant and not even the same religion. Jesus did not teach the Pharisee religion. Jesus taught against the Pharisee religion because he spoke against their man made traditions and how they ignored the weightier matters of the Law, etc. Besides, the Pharisee religion was based on Torah or the 613 laws within the Old Covenant. It was not New Covenant teaching. The Pharisee religion did not follow all of the commands that came from Jesus and His followers. Sure some laws have remained the same, but they are two different covenants each with their own respective laws or commands. So when Paul said he was perfect as a Pharisee, he was talking about the Old Covenant Pharisee religion that was false and not the commands that came from Jesus and His followers.
 
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Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead to spiritual death, and sins that do not lead to spiritual death (See: 1 John 5:16-17). In other words, I do not believe that a Christian has to reach a state of Sinless Perfection in order to be saved. Folks confuse the Bible talking about being perfect in certain aspects with being 100% Sinless and this is not the case. Matthew 5:48 is one example. Jesus is talking about four actions you can do so as to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect (involving loving your enemies). It only in this aspect or way a person can be perfect but that does not mean that they not be imperfect in something else or in some other area. In other words, Matthew 5:43-48 is not dealing with reaching a state of Sinless Perfection, but it is referring to only aspect or characteristic in being perfect.
I can understand that.
[quote[Okay. Stop right here. The Bible says in Hebrews 10:26 that if we willfull sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin.[/quote]
My view is that a genuinely converted believer will never fall away, because he has been totally transformed into a new creature in Christ with a new heart and spirit. John says that those who left the Lord were never His in the first place, and those who were really His stayed with Him. There are many who get just religion and are not converted to Christ, yet they behave so much the same as genuine believers that we cannot tell them apart. The writer to the Hebrews does not say that true believers will definitely fall away. He shows the consequences "if" someone falls away. It is to reinforce the fear of God that we need always to be sober and vigilant.

I am not allowed to promote Sinless Perfectionism in this section of the forums.
That is good, because it is a false doctrine that has led many good people astray.

But Paul was not speaking as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24, but he was speaking from his experience before he knew Jesus Christ. Paul said in the previous chapter, "But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life." (Romans 6:22). This is why Paul says in Romans 8, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4). How can the righteousness of the Law be fulfilled if somebody is always breaking the Law? How can one be a slave to doing righteousness if one is sinning? Jesu said, he that sins is a slave to sin (See: John 8:34).]/quote]
I have given good and compelling reasons why Romans 7 is Paul's experience as a Christian, and I am not going to be persuaded otherwise.

I am not surprised that there are false holiness teachers out there (Who do not understand the true way of how to live holy, etc.).
We are to obey the commandments of Christ, sure, but not in the flesh. We cannot of ourselves accomplish it. We are expected to obey only those commandments that the Holy Spirit works in us to give us the ability to obey. Therefore, true holiness is the work of the Holy Spirit within us to conform us to the image of Christ, and not through us following any set rules of what we think holiness should be. God sees us as perfectly righteous in Christ, because it is Christ's righteousness that makes us acceptable to Him. We cannot do any works of righteousness of ourselves that would be in the least way acceptable to Him. But as we are led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, our works through the fruit of the Spirit are acceptable and are counted as works of holiness - because it is the Holy Spirit in us that performs them.

Not the same covenant and not even the same religion. Jesus did not teach the Pharisee religion. Jesus taught against the Pharisee religion because he spoke against their man made traditions and how they ignored the weightier matters of the Law, etc. Besides, the Pharisee religion was based on Torah or the 613 laws within the Old Covenant. It was not New Covenant teaching. The Pharisee religion did not follow all of the commands that came from Jesus and His followers. Sure some laws have remained the same, but they are two different covenants each with their own respective laws or commands. So when Paul said he was perfect as a Pharisee, he was talking about the Old Covenant Pharisee religion that was false and not the commands that came from Jesus and His followers.
I have dealt with what is true holiness in my last comment in this post.
 
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This is an excellent book on this topic: Perspectives on Our Struggle with Sin: Three Views of Romans 7, https://www.amazon.com/Perspectives-Our-Struggle-Sin-Romans-ebook/dp/B005XOW1BO. The strongest position seems to be as the OP suggests (i.e., Paul isn't speaking as a Christian throughout the chapter.)

I own the Kindle edition of at least 25 of these "multi-view" books in which 3-5 Christian scholars of the highest caliber each present a view and then defend it against challenges by the other contributors. They can be very lively "discussions."

I've found these multi-view books, which are published by a variety of publishers (Perspectives and Counterpoints are two of the notable series), to be among the most valuable books in my library. They are very eye-opening as to what a wide diversity of views on a single subject can be held by mainstream Christian scholars.
 
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Not all sin is the same. There are sins that lead to spiritual death, and sins that do not lead to spiritual death (See: 1 John 5:16-17).
Rather, the "sin unto death" is a reference to God's divine discipline that results in physical death. We read about discipline leading to physical death in several passages:

1. incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5
2. Ananias and Sapphira in Actss 5
3. Corinthian congregation in 1 Cor 11:30

Because of our inherited sin nature from Adam, we are born spiritually dead already.
Romans 5:15-18
 
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You are quoting the wrong book. In Romans 7:14-124, we read in the context where Paul says that he speaks to those who know the Law (See Romans 7:1). This would be the Law of Moses because that was the only Law that existed at the time by popularity. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers.

Romans 13:14 says cloth yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 7:1, Let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of GOD. Imagine Paul struggling with sin as a Christian telling believers to cleanse themsevles of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit? If he did not at least come close to doing this, he would be a hypocrite or he would be preaching a double message.

In Galatians 5:

Paul is talking to those who are wrongfully putting themselves under the false heresy of Circumcision Salvationism. In Galatians 5:2, Paul says to the Galatians that if they be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. This was a part of the heresy told to us at the Jerusalem council; There was a certain sect of Jews who were trying to deceive Christians that they had to:

(a) Be circumcised to be initially saved.
(b) Keep the whole of the Torah to be saved

(See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul was telling the Christians in Rome to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (See Romans 7:6). The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the 613 laws as a whole given to Israel. Paul was not referring to the commands of Jesus and His followers. For Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See 1 Timothy 6:3-4).
You missed the point. Compare

Paul talking about himself:
Rom 7:15-18 For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul talking about Christians who have the Holy Spirit:
Gal 5:17 "the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want."

See any similarities? (Rhetorical Question)
 
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Rather, the "sin unto death" is a reference to God's divine discipline that results in physical death. We read about discipline leading to physical death in several passages:

1. incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5
2. Ananias and Sapphira in Actss 5
3. Corinthian congregation in 1 Cor 11:30

Because of our inherited sin nature from Adam, we are born spiritually dead already.
Romans 5:15-18
Paul was spiritually dead before his conversion, so he could not have been aware of a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. As an unconverted Pharisee, he was totally in the flesh, therefore there was no conflict in him. He was not in a conflict about his standing with God as a Pharisee. He was, as he said himself, blameless concerning the Law. Therefore, he totally complied with the Law and had no awareness of failing to do so.

His experience as described in Romans 7 therefore could never have applied to him as a Pharisee. He thought himself sinlessly perfect. That what "blameless according to the Law" meant to him.

I think that those who maintain that Romans 7 is Paul's experience as an unconverted Pharisee, are prejudiced by their unsound theology concerning sanctification. They are blinded to the fact that a true believer can be righteous and a sinner at the same time.
 
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To all:

It all comes down to whether or not a believer justifies sin or not. Do they think they can sin and still be saved? If so, the Bible warns against this very kind of thinking. Eve was deceived by the serpents lie that she could break God's commandment and yet still live (See: Genesis 3). For the believer who says they know the Lord and yet they do not keep His commandments, they are a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). 1 John 3:10 says, "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

So the mark of a true believer is that they do righteousness and that they love the brethren. Also, 1 Corinthians 2:16 says that we have the mind of Christ. Did Christ ever justify sin? No. So that means we cannot justify sin, either.
 
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Paul was spiritually dead before his conversion, so he could not have been aware of a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit. As an unconverted Pharisee, he was totally in the flesh, therefore there was no conflict in him. He was not in a conflict about his standing with God as a Pharisee. He was, as he said himself, blameless concerning the Law. Therefore, he totally complied with the Law and had no awareness of failing to do so.
Right on!

His experience as described in Romans 7 therefore could never have applied to him as a Pharisee. He thought himself sinlessly perfect. That what "blameless according to the Law" meant to him.
:oldthumbsup:

I think that those who maintain that Romans 7 is Paul's experience as an unconverted Pharisee, are prejudiced by their unsound theology concerning sanctification. They are blinded to the fact that a true believer can be righteous and a sinner at the same time.
Correct. They can't face the obvious fact that Paul was speaking in the present tense in Rom 7. Some try to deflect by abusing the "historical present", as if Paul was describing his pre-conversion experience. But the plain language of the text refutes that notion completely.
 
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You missed the point. Compare

Paul talking about himself:
Rom 7:15-18 For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Paul talking about Christians who have the Holy Spirit:
Gal 5:17 "the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want."

See any similarities? (Rhetorical Question)

Why do you think the Galatians were struggling with lusting after the flesh?
It is because they were trying to put themselves back under the Law of Moses via by "Circumcision Salvationism." For Paul says in Galatians 5:2, "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." This is why Paul says, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." They fell for the same heresy described at the Jerusalem council that said that you had to be circumcised and follow the Torah in order to be saved (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

This is why Paul tells them to walk after the Spirit, and they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh in Galatians 5:16 (Which is the verse right before Galatians 5:17). These Christians were not walking in the Spirit because they were seeking to be justified by the Law of Moses because they sought to be circumcised in order to be saved.

Romans 7:6 tells those who know the Law of Moses that they are to serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah or the Law of Moses). The newness of spirit that they are to serve in would be the NT Scriptures that they were forming during that time via by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. These would be the commands that came from Jesus and His followers. These are the commands that they were to serve in newness of spirit. The oldness of the letter is the Torah or the Old Law. This is the Law that Paul was struggling to keep before he became a Christian. So Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee in trying to keep the Old Law in Romans 7:14-24. For Paul says in Romans 8:4 that we can fulfill the righteousness of the Law (i.e. we can fulfill the righteous aspect of the Old Law) by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. the carnal thinking that we have to follow the Old Law, which would be a sin.).
 
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My view is that a genuinely converted believer will never fall away, because he has been totally transformed into a new creature in Christ with a new heart and spirit.

While believers are born again with a new heart, a new spirit, and with new desires, their free will is not taken away. The Bible talks in a way that suggests we are not forced against our will to be a certain way after we made a one time decision for the Lord.

For we are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).


We are told to:

  1. Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

  2. Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

  3. Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

You said:
John says that those who left the Lord were never His in the first place, and those who were really His stayed with Him.

You mean 1 John 2:19. 1 John 2:19 says, "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

This is not an exhaustive truth. This is speaking of the gnostic believers that were trying to seduce the brethren in whom John was writing to.

"These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you."
(1 John 2:26).

One of the gnostic false beliefs was that they thought that they thought sin was an illusion or that it did not exist. Hence, why John says to the brethren not to say the same thing that the gnostics are saying in 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:10. For 1 John 1:10 is a warning to not say what the gnostics are saying in the fact they have never sinned in the past tense. 1 John 1:8 is a declaration that one does not have sin [even while they are committing a sin in the present moment]. John is telling them that they must instead to confess of sin in order to be forgiven of sin (1 John 1:9), and John is saying that they must walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, so the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). Walking in the light = loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11. So one has to love their brother in order for the imputation of Christ's sacrifice to be continued upon a believer's life.

You said:
There are many who get just religion and are not converted to Christ, yet they behave so much the same as genuine believers that we cannot tell them apart.

Jesus said you will know them by their fruits (Matthew 7:16).

Do you believe the carnal Christian is saved?
Do you believe that a Christian can commit suicide and still be saved?
Do you believe that a Christian can die in one or two unconfessed grievous sins (like hating, lusting, and or lying) and still be saved (as long as they generally lived a holy life)?

You said:
The writer to the Hebrews does not say that true believers will definitely fall away. He shows the consequences "if" someone falls away.

It is not just Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 4:11, Hebrews 6:4-9, Hebrews 10:26-30, and Hebrews 12:15 that talk about falling away. There are many more verses that teach that a believer can fall away.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3


Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)


And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

You said:
For It is to reinforce the fear of God that we need always to be sober and vigilant.

But there is no fear of GOD if one knows that they cannot fall away.

You said:
That is good, because it is a false doctrine that has led many good people astray.

What do you make of 2 Corinthians 7:1?
What do you think it says?
Please give me a word for word commentary on this verse.
Does your interpretation attempt to rewrite this verse in what it plainly says in the English, or do you accept this verse for what it normally says?
 
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